The "value" of drugs

Carawaystick

following a few other threads here and with regard to the whole pharmacy "strike" and also an email read out by Pat Kenney regarding the difference in price between 6 weeks antibiotic dispensed here and in Spain (~47 here, ~ 2.40 in the kindom of Spain)

Why did we establish a monetary value in out drugs laws?
Illegal drugs cannot be sold legally, so how can some "estimated street value" be accepted as a real value?

Also I'd imagine the actual cost to an illegal drug purchaser would be a function of location, where heroin in a remote part of Ireland would cost more than in the inner city of our cities.

Also the estimated street value always seems to be if the total amount of the drugs were divided out to the smallest deal possible multiplied by the total mass of the drug. There is obviously some value added by drug dealers by dividing this out.

So I guess my questions are
Why isn't a specific mass of the drug listed for the mandatory 10 year sentence and other drug laws?

how is an illegal market used to give a market value?

Are the methods for quantifying the mass of drugs specified in the law?

The estimated street value used - if the drugs are bound for a different country ( as given in prosecution evidence) does the street value of the intended destination get used or the value here?


Another question relating to licensed drugs, sold illegally- Suppose you personally imported lipitor ( or Zarator - they are all the same thing made in Ringaskiddy) and sold them on the street here.
Would the prosecution estimate the street value as the VAT inclusive spanish price, or the price the pharmacists and govt here have decreed?

Hooch

Carawaystick wrote: »

following a few other threads here and with regard to the whole pharmacy "strike" and also an email read out by Pat Kenney regarding the difference in price between 6 weeks antibiotic dispensed here and in Spain (~47 here, ~ 2.40 in the kindom of Spain)

Why did we establish a monetary value in out drugs laws?
Illegal drugs cannot be sold legally, so how can some "estimated street value" be accepted as a real value?

Also I'd imagine the actual cost to an illegal drug purchaser would be a function of location, where heroin in a remote part of Ireland would cost more than in the inner city of our cities.

Also the estimated street value always seems to be if the total amount of the drugs were divided out to the smallest deal possible multiplied by the total mass of the drug. There is obviously some value added by drug dealers by dividing this out.

So I guess my questions are
Why isn't a specific mass of the drug listed for the mandatory 10 year sentence and other drug laws?

how is an illegal market used to give a market value?

Are the methods for quantifying the mass of drugs specified in the law?

The estimated street value used - if the drugs are bound for a different country ( as given in prosecution evidence) does the street value of the intended destination get used or the value here?


Another question relating to licensed drugs, sold illegally- Suppose you personally imported lipitor ( or Zarator - they are all the same thing made in Ringaskiddy) and sold them on the street here.
Would the prosecution estimate the street value as the VAT inclusive spanish price, or the price the pharmacists and govt here have decreed?

Street value is give by the country the drug is found in.

The value is calcuated by Drugs officers, who get information from users/dealers on the value of the substance on the street.

Evidence in regard to a contested case in which suspect says value is smaller, is given by an officer from the drugs unit, normally a Detective Inspector or D/Supt, who has experience in the area.

The mass the drugs is calulated by the Forensic Lab when they are testing it.

Dont know about legal drugs im afraid.

McCrack

There has to be some yardstick to measure the value of drugs seized...purity and weight being the obvious ones coupled with the market value at the time.

I havent come across this personally but my understanding from listening to people affected is the Gardai have a tendency to be generous (to themselves) in their estimations.

This of course can be challenged by other independent experts if needs be.

Our man in Havana

I havent come across this personally but my understanding from listening to people affected is the Gardai have a tendency to be generous (to themselves) in their estimations.

Or the local dealers are telling them tall tales.

Hooch

McCrack wrote: »

There has to be some yardstick to measure the value of drugs seized...purity and weight being the obvious ones coupled with the market value at the time.

I havent come across this personally but my understanding from listening to people affected is the Gardai have a tendency to be generous (to themselves) in their estimations.

This of course can be challenged by other independent experts if needs be.

No yardstick im afraid!!

Only problem with independant experts is........how many drug lords are willing to give evidence:P:D

(and yes....once again your right......they we do have a tendency to be generous as to the amount!!!)

Carawaystick

Is the gardaí's evidence not hearsay if "someone told me it was worth x"
or else they bought it of a dealer to get a price.

It's just that the value of the drugs seems wide open to manipulation and can vary over time - possibly even between the time of the offence, the time of charging and the time of the trial, where mass and purity are fixed, independent of any reasonable bias.

Also if an "independent expert witness" convinced a jury the gardaí's value was wrong, wouldn't it lead to other cases being able to challenge the garda valuation on appeal? It just seems like a weak construct to me.

Frank the Manc

The usuallly take the actual street value and multiple it by 3-4 times.

It makes seizures appear bigger and allows them to threaten people with a Section 15(a) far more easier.

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

Is the gardaí's evidence not hearsay if "someone told me it was worth x"

Perhaps. However, if many people told the garda over a period of time, thats knowledge.

Also if an "independent expert witness" convinced a jury the gardaí's value was wrong, wouldn't it lead to other cases being able to challenge the garda valuation on appeal? It just seems like a weak construct to me.

Most such witnesses would prefer not to self-incriminate.

Carawaystick

Victor wrote: »

Most such witnesses would prefer not to self-incriminate.

I agree, but if someone was convicted and served their sentence, and gained credibility (somehow); or for magic mushrooms; or for someone dealing in the North ( at a border town,) when it was lower in class, it'd be a weakness in the prosecution case. I mean you can have good pr reeling off estimated street values to the press, but it seems a safer way to give measured quantity.

I mean e tablets all seem to be given the same value when a seizure is made, yet anti drugs campaigners (gardaí included) all say "oh you never know what's in it" implying some unknown value

If you had some "standard dose" for each controlled drug, and possession of some multiple of them got you the ten year mandatory sentence, It seems simpler. I presume evidence has to be given anyway about the quantity and quality of the drug.

dermot_sheehan

Section 15A(5) answers the question about market value:

‘market value’, in relation to a controlled drug, means the price that drug could be expected to fetch on the market for the unlawful sale or supply of controlled drugs

Evidence of a garda or officer of customs is allowed as to the market value

means what someone is willing to pay for that quantity of drugs

Our man in Havana

Again that information could be very inaccurate.

As said earlier they must often be buying from the most expensive dealers in the land.

Hooch

Carawaystick wrote: »

If you had some "standard dose" for each controlled drug, and possession of some multiple of them got you the ten year mandatory sentence, It seems simpler. I presume evidence has to be given anyway about the quantity and quality of the drug.

Evidence for this is given by way of certificate of anaylsis from the Forensic Lab in Dublin.

They may also be called to give evidence.

Frank the Manc

Bond-007 wrote: »

Again that information could be very inaccurate.

As said earlier they must often be buying from the most expensive dealers in the land.

Ive seen ecstacy tablets being valued from anything from €10 to €37.50 each for 24, and thats no exaggeration, i was present when it was called out.

maidhc

Carawaystick wrote: »

Is the gardaí's evidence not hearsay if "someone told me it was worth x"
or else they bought it of a dealer to get a price.

It's just that the value of the drugs seems wide open to manipulation and can vary over time - possibly even between the time of the offence, the time of charging and the time of the trial, where mass and purity are fixed, independent of any reasonable bias.

Also if an "independent expert witness" convinced a jury the gardaí's value was wrong, wouldn't it lead to other cases being able to challenge the garda valuation on appeal? It just seems like a weak construct to me.

Does it matter whether you have €10,000 or €100,000 (or 1m or €5m) worth of drugs? If you have that quantity then your motives are clear. If values are being used to bump people from "mere users" to dealers it is one thing, but if it is to generally screw dealers I don't think many people would have a problem with that.

McCrack

It matters a great deal in fact when it comes to sentence. Sure S.25 of the CJA 1999 imposes mandatory minimum of 10 years for possession over £10,000. In practice of course this is rarely enforced.

I mean there's a huge difference between €20,000 worth of coke and €200,000 for example...probably a difference of 3-7 years imprisonment depending on the circumstances.

Carawaystick

maidhc wrote: »

Does it matter whether you have €10,000 or €100,000 (or 1m or €5m) worth of drugs? If you have that quantity then your motives are clear. If values are being used to bump people from "mere users" to dealers it is one thing, but if it is to generally screw dealers I don't think many people would have a problem with that.

It matters if you have 9999.99 or 10000.00 Euros worth, as pointed out earlier.


On a different tack regarding overvaluing illegal drugs,
http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/prosecutions/2008/pros_160108.html &
http://news.myhome.ie/newspaper/ireland/2008/0117/1200515388405.html

show the revenue used a vat inclusive value of about 66kEur when the vat registration threshold is 75kEur. No evidence was reported that the convict was vat registered( but he may have been) so there was no need to charge vat and the value would have been ~54kEur.

In light of this, is vat roped into the price of cannabis heroin etc?
If not, should it? see why value not quantity/quality is a can of worms.