Batman 1989: A Re-appreciation (SPOILERS of course)

Klingon Hamlet

I recently revisited this film having not seen it in quite some time and I must say that it actually entertained me more than the recent Nolan films. Whilst the latest incarnation provokes far more thought and operates in a far more real-world environment, burton seemed to "get" the mythology---the twisted urban landscapes, the psychotic caricatures, the dual-personality Bruce Wayne / Batman---far better than Nolan did.

Nolan seemed to believe that Batman was Wayne's true identity, Wayne his facade. I feel more along the lines of Burton: He's both.

Keaton, I felt, was brilliant casting. Forgetting Bale and his ridiculous just got kicked in the nuts growl---Keaton can play crazy because he really kinda is. Those razor sharp eyes, the slightly twisted grin. When he dons the cowl he does as good a job, i think, as Kevin Conroy in masking his normal tones without sounding as clownish and unreal as Bale.

Nicholson too deserves praise for elevating the role far beyond what anyone thought could be done with a fairly one dimensional character. I mean, apartfrom his madness and homicidal humour, Joker could have been quite cardboardy but Nicholson just played himself, times a thousand. Which is awesome. Far too much screentime though.

Favourite things (some ridiculously particular):

The slight mod to the batsign--extra forks at the centre spike (see?) added extra intimidation factor to the insignia.

Batmobile looked menacing. Still does.

Wayne being a bit dopey. Not dim, but his mind is always in two places at once. Always figuring things out at funny angles.

The effects are funny---some look very dated (especially the Batwing) and yet look great because I love real-world modelwork.

"Did you ever dance with the devil by the pale moonlight?"...a chilling line before the kill that has three entirely different tones:
first, a bit of a WTF hal-joke til Joker fires a bullet intended to kill adult Wayne...;

second, intoned in a horrifyingly drawn-out question as the younger Napier aims his gun squarely at the young Wayne, a satanic grin ripping his sharp face apart;

third, Bruce, bloodied and bruised, probably a bone or two broken, suited up as Batman and staring directly at his parents' killer on the church tower, delivers the line right before smashing his fist into the killer's face with a satisfying crunch.

Joker: "Bob? Gun." BLAM!

The rough and tumble hand to hand fight between Batman and a beefed up thug on the church tower.

The museum dance. So silly, so strange.

"I'm gonna kill you." Batman's grim promise to Joker as he lands punch after punch upon his childhood nightmare. (Come back to this in a second).

Knox: I liked him cheezy but funny.

Alfred is a legend. Has a haunting line, can't remember it, but basically tells Bruce he won't be around forever.

Now, what still sucks:
Bad action choreography. Just muddled and the camera seems to be numb to it a little.

Commissioner Gordon seems overweight and a bit of a ghost.

Harvey Dent---but only because he appears in this one, then is never seen again (Tommy Lee Jones' version is not in the Burtonverse remember?)

Too much Joker, not enough Batman!

Prince music, meh.

Vicki Vale: too flakey.

Why oh why was she allowed in the batcave? C'mon Al!

The Batman no-kill code was discarded rather disdainfully. But then, that leads me onto...

BURTON'S BATMAN wasn't the comic book Batman. This Batman didn't discover the killer of his parents was Joe chill, a hopeless homeless junkie. He was a gangster, a sadistic nightmare of a man whose horrible smile stuck with him forever. he didn't do it out of need or desperation like the comics and Begins. It was for greed.

So when confronted with this animal, who now held the entire city for ransom, he did what he avoided in the very same movie: he went on a murderous rampage. Was this unBatmanly? Maybe. Remember, Wayne went to kill Chill in Begins, then found a code with the ninjas. But Keaton/Burton's Wayne's past is a mystery. hes rich and driven and a good fighter, but his backstory is untold. And that's one f*cker of a loose thread dangling over his life.

PLUS: Joker was slaying the entire city of people that came out for money. They were baited to their deaths. He was a terrorist, in a way.

Finally, he did try and save him at the beginning, even when the same man fired a bullet at him and he happened to deflect it back, he reached down and grabbed him and tried to save him.

Overall a very enjoyable film.

nyarlothothep

Prefer this a lot more to Nolans lumpen atrocities. The Prince music was one of my favourite elements in the film, it added absurdity and style to the scenes. My favourite scene was when the Joker was looking through Vales portfolio, the combination of the 50s music and the commentary, "crap, crap, crap ah now this is good", was hilarious and weird. Also I found that the joker killing Waynes' parents worked excellently as it introduced a revenge element to Batmans quest, works from an emotional angle. I found that scene to be a lot darker than in Nolans version. Another excellent scene is where Bruce shows Dale around his house, with the knight armoury. Brilliant. Michael Keaton was excellently cast, in part because he wasn't your typical superheo. He brought something new to the role. It had a sense of joie de vivre, something that was lost in this decade and not just in films, which contrasted nicely with the darkness which was absent in Nolans monotonal grimness in the dark knight which for me, felt like I was being hit around the head with a sledgehammer as to how dark it was supposed to be. The cool thing about Batman was this certain naivety, like dancing through the museum, who cared if it looked silly, it was movement on screen, cinematic spectacle, imagery, art for arts sake! Nowadays cynicism and knowingness seemed dominant. The backstory thing didn't really bother me, they had to convince audiences then that this wasn't the 1960s batman series, enjoyable though hideously camp. So a backstory might have bogged it down and could be left for future installments.

senordingdong

It is very good and, remarkably, doesn't seem dated.

Sad Professor

I much prefer Burton's vision of Batman as well. Keaton may not have looked the part but he nailed the psychology of the character. Burton's Batman is a lonely freak, someone who is seriously screwed up. Keaton embodies this at all times. As you say, he is both Batman and Bruce Wayne, with Batman being a dark side of his personality. He doesn't need a suit or a bunch of gadgets to be Batman - he is Batman. It's in the eyes.

Burton spent a lot of time getting the visuals just right. They didn't have the greatest suit so he emphasised Keaton's performance. The psychic look in the eyes, the crazy grin. The result is far more cinematic than Nolan's effort imo.

I like the first one but Batman Returns is my favourite of the Bat films. I love all the noirishness and German Expressionism. It's a very underrated film.

][cEMAN**

One of my favourite films of all time. When I first started collecting videos (VHS), this was the first one I bought.

It's really the first film I ever remember seeing in a cinema, and it stuck with me. I always thought Keaton was a brilliant actor because of this film. Now I don't think he's as great, but I still think he nailed batman perfectly.

Unfortunately, I didn't like Returns as much. I thought it was long and drawn out, with too much being thrown in to cover up for the thin story. As it was a sequal, trying to deal with the new villain's back story, and pad out other characters, it lost its pace I think. The film is about Batman. That's what the people come to see. When it's just a new film with a different nemesis, it becomes a feature length series episode (imo).

At least with the new batman series it's not just villain after villain, it's a progression of the story of Bruce Wayne/Batman. While it's going somewhere, and while the character is still evolving, the films will hold my attention. As soon as they think "OK we've done batman, now it's time to shift more to the bad guys", i'll tune out.

If you want to do a film based around say, the Joker, then do a film about the joker. Do it from his point of view, not a batman point of view film about the guy.

Mr E

One of the things that made this film for me was Danny Elfman's music. The score for Batman was the first score I ever bought.

Mikey23

Really loved this movie, but imho Returns is even better as Burton & Keaton seem completely at home with it. That's the feeling I get from the commentary anyhoo. Plus Danny Elfman's soundtrack is great & I could admire the set design all day.

My sole fault with both, & something that is better handled by Christopher Nolan, regardless of what you think of his take on Batman, is that Batman isn't the star of his own movie. When it comes down to it, Tim Burton's Batman is influenced by the TV show as much as the comic in terms of storytelling: introduce villain(s), cue entertaining mayhem, Batman saves the day. As a character, it's just assumed that you know all there is to know about Bruce Wayne himself. Likewise, that's the one redeeming thing about Forever for me - the attempt to elaborate what drives Wayne to do what he does. The casting, direction, set design, music... you name it was off though - would have loved to see what Burton would have done but arguably he walked away at the right point.

In the vein of those who can reconcile the different Bonds - Lazenby loses his wife, Connery seeks revenge, Moore places a rose on her grave - I can just about see a future (timeline & continuity be damned) where Bale's Batman becomes the eccentric Keaton. That said, I wonder what point Lucius Fox starts manufacturing everything with Bat-logos - laughed out loud back in 1992 when the branded CD player came on screen. Egotistic or what...

Wreck

I really love this film, was the second movie I ever saw in the cinema and although I was way too young to get it all I really enjoyed it. Haven't seen it for a few years but will revisit it soon on the back of this thread. I think both Nicholson and Keaton give great performances.

Handsome Bob

I think the line from Alfred is something like "I have no wish spending my few remaining years grieving for old lost friends...........or their sons." It's an awesome line.

B89 was my favourite film growing up, I could watch it over and over again without getting bored. Highlights for me would be all of the Axis Chemical scenes (Ship 'em ALL! We're gonna take 'em out a WHOLE NEW DOOR!), the "I'm glad you're dead!" scene, Bruce coming to the realisation of who the Joker really is in the Batcave, our introduction to Batman (WHAT ARE YOU? I'm Batman.) and the climax in the Cathedral.

Awesome film. I can watch B89 and Batman Returns over and over again. I do think Nolan makes the better films, but I get tired of watching them after the 3rd or 4th viewing.

krudler

First movie I ever saw in the cinema as a kid, that summer you couldnt move without seeing the Batman logo, it was EVERYWHERE. Still watch it a couple of times a year, I love Begins and TDK as well but they're a different breed of movie, this is out and out comic book, it has its flaws sure, Nicholsons got way too much screen time (Burtons biggest flaw as director of 2 Batmovies is that he didnt seem that interested in Batman himself, they're all about the villains, in Returns Batman feels like a cameo role in his own movie) and Basinger isnt very good but the production design (love the 40s fashions set against a gothic backdrop) score (Elfmans finest work aside from Scissorhands) and setpieces are all top notch

uncleoswald

I actually remember there was a Batman movie shop in the St Stephens Green shopping centre, how weird.

I like the film, but also find it a little uneven. I do think Burton had a better handle on his universe in the second movie.

And how exactly could that giant pistol bring down the Batwing?

Karl Hungus

Burton's Batman was brilliant. But so was Nolan's. I try not to compare the two version.

I will say this though, the creepy laughter at the end of Burton's was something that had always freaked me out.

Futurism

Ashamed to say that I haven't seen this/don't remember it. I might pick it up later on and give it a watch.

Morlar

Wholly crap film batman. All of the pre-bale ones should be wiped. A low point for Burton too imo.

missingtime

Did anyone collect the cards with the chewing gum that cracked your teeth?

Favourite Batman of them all, Keaton was an inspired casting decision

Handsome Bob

missingtime wrote: »

Did anyone collect the cards with the chewing gum that cracked your teeth?

Favourite Batman of them all, Keaton was an inspired casting decision

Ha ha yeah I did indeed. Awful chewing gum, it would lose its' taste in seconds. :P I think I was also a big fan of the chalk like candy too. :pac:

lostexpectation

just watch this with commentary the night before, interesting to hear about the last minute changes they made... eg bringing vicky into the batcave... and it was going to be ashley judd

in the new interviews jack holds himself responsible for the success production and result of the film

forgot about palance, as butron says who else could be jack nicholson boss

i thought the distortion of the jokers face looks awful, the make up was grand but cheek ridges and big kissy lips ??



its a pity the art designer died so soon after

best bit the way the mugger at the starts says W-What are you!?


they spent so much money on it


young jack nicholson direct "Marion & Geoff" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0283760/ wtf mostly done writing...

razorblunt

I loved this film when I was younger, but I have to say I preferred Nolan's, not that there's anything wrong with Burtons at all, in fact it's held up pretty well.

I preferred Batman returns to this one. Penguin-man haunted my childhood. Loved all the characters though, especially Pfeiffer and DeVito. Walken was pretty cool and i love the way he wears make-up, it makes his character more theatrical. Overall batman himself is my least favourite character. Burtons version of him will never beat the new Bale version.
Also, old Alfred vs new Alfred?? Showdown necessary??!:D

Handsome Bob

Yeah the Penguin was awesome in Batman Returns however a lot of fans hated the characterization because it wasn't true to the comics. Ironically though to this day it was IMO the best and most intruiging interpretation of the Penguin on Film/TV/Paper.

Klingon Hamlet

I actually watched Batman Returns last night and I could not bring myself to like the Penguin in it. One minute he has a sob story, then he's a deviant, then he's an OTT Bad Guy...just couldn't like the character at all.

As for Catwoman...well now, Pfeiffer was amazing:pac:

nyarlothothep

Batman Returns was a bit of an S&M love story. Well, I think they got the character dynamics between batman and catwoman perfect...no I won't pun. Batman was a bit of moron though when it came to fighting her which was also funny. Yes, BR is a classic.

Klingon Hamlet

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

I actually watched Batman Returns last night and I could not bring myself to like the Penguin in it. One minute he has a sob story, then he's a deviant, then he's an OTT Bad Guy...just couldn't like the character at all.

As for Catwoman...well now, Pfeiffer was amazing:pac:

I always thought Penguins "sob story" was just his ploy to get all the first borns' names. He probably couldn't give two sheets who his parents were, it was all an act. IMO.

][cEMAN**

[quote=[Deleted User];61677349]I always thought Penguins "sob story" was just his ploy to get all the first borns' names. He probably couldn't give two sheets who his parents were, it was all an act. IMO.[/QUOTE]

Correct

lostexpectation

watching the dvd commentary and extras apparently danny devito stayed in character while in costume on set...:rolleyes: burton et al said it was fun but scary they were afraid that de vito was going to bite someone nose off at any time...

pfeiffer was fantastic

burton wins an award for repeating himself on the commentary

michael keaton is brilliant, such fun, why isn't he more good stuff

I love Tim Burton. Ever since I watched Beetlejuice as a kid I've loved everything he's done. Can't wait till Alice in Wonderland comes out.
What's anyone fav Tim Buton movie and/or character??
Mine is Ichabod Crane in Sleepy Hollow. Genius.

Handsome Bob

[quote=[Deleted User];61685043]I love Tim Burton. Ever since I watched Beetlejuice as a kid I've loved everything he's done. Can't wait till Alice in Wonderland comes out.
What's anyone fav Tim Buton movie and/or character??
Mine is Ichabod Crane in Sleepy Hollow. Genius.[/quote]

Slightly OT but what the hey. I'd say Beetlejuice is my favourite film, but Edward Scissorhands is my favourite Burton-created character.

CyberGhost

I agree completely,

I loved the first batman, the setting, the atmosphere was great.

I loved Gotham, it was dark, twisted and very "mystical" I could say, Batman in that setting was believable.

Keaton was also really good, Batmobile too, basically everything.

The new Batmans, while very good, I just have a very hard time beliving some guy running around in a costume in everyday, normal city.

It just does not have the same feeling.

Snake Plisken

I liked this at the time bought into the whole hype surrounding the release, but left me feeling empty, there is only one great fight scene in it where Batman takes on a load of henchmen, Nolan's Batman is way superior, Burton's versions always seemed jokey to me

fluke

I like both Burton's and Bolan's versions of Batman, they both respectively give two completely different takes on the character and the universe surrounding him, yet they stay broadly true to the gritty and dark characterization of what Batman is.

I do actually prefer the Nolan films because I left his films with plausible ideas about how the suit, batmobile etc. were created. Nolan’s films are a good bit more grounded in reality. That being said, because of that reality the villain’s gallery for future (fingers crossed!) Nolan films are therefore limited.

There are slight similarities in each of Burton's and Nolan's films when put side by side. I think these are worth mentioning:


Batman (1989) & Batman Begins (2005)

1. We see how Bruce's parents died thereby explaining his motives
2. Both stories involve Batman learning his skills and as such becoming Batman
3. Gotham is crime ridden at the start and by the end there is hope...

Batman Returns (1992) & The Dark Knight (2008)

1. Both have the theme of Bruce wanting to hang up the cape
2. Both have a damsel in distress... that dies
3. Both have the signature vehicle destroyed only to be turned into another vehicle
4. Both at some stage have the hero running from the police as he is framed for murder
5. Both have pretty dark endings compared to the respective endings of the predecessors.

Am I leaving out anything??

lostexpectation

Snake Plisken wrote: »

I liked this at the time bought into the whole hype surrounding the release, but left me feeling empty, there is only one great fight scene in it where Batman takes on a load of henchmen, Nolan's Batman is way superior, Burton's versions always seemed jokey to me

your looking for the fight scenes I think you missed the point, the fight scenes are crap.

Josey Wales

missingtime wrote: »

Did anyone collect the cards with the chewing gum that cracked your teeth?

I collected those cards.

I still really like the film and while I don't like to compare them to Nolan's movies I would much prefer to watch The Dark Knight over Burton's Batman.

tarbuck

It's a decidedly average movie at best that has aged badly in the 20 years since its release. A plodding sequence of flabby action-sequence and over-the-top performances leading to a pure exercise in style over substance. One that will hopefully be forgotten entirely in time as the Nolan movies become the definitive vision of Batman on the silver screen.

Incidentally I wonder how many people here who are so fond of it were kids who were caught up in the buzz first time round in cinemas, as I'd suspect that demographic accounts for a lot of the positive comments thus far?