"Love shyness"

LegacyUser

I've just read an article in The Sunday Times today that struck a chord with me like never before. It was about a form of extreme shyness in men called "Love shyness".
It's not an officially recognised condition but it is defined as "a complete inability to initiate or to engage in romantic interplay".
I've heard of it before and suspected that I might have it myself but having read the article I am even more convinced I have it. I'm in my late-thirties and have never had a girlfriend or ever been intimate with another female. Not because I don't want to, but because, (as the article described brilliantly) I feel I have "no qualities that appeal to a woman".
I like women and in school I was popular with girls but in my late teens and early twenties I suffered from horrendous acne which made me into a bitter recluse for a while. It got so bad I couldn't bear to look at myself in the mirror or go into a shop.
I am OK now, I am quite handsome and have been told so on a number of occasions (but I don't like being told that) but maybe there are some psychological effects remaining from it.
I don't have a problem talking to women, I have struck up friendships with them in college and in houses I shared with them (I am OK when it's "platonic"). I sometimes get nervous talking to women who are very attractive but after I've met them a few times I am fine.
The problem is I just can't imagine myself having a "girlfriend", I can't see in any way,shape or form that a girl would want to be in a romantic relationship with me. I tried to convince myself "Yes it could happen", but deep down I don't really believe it.
I've never asked a girl out on a date, I would be too nervous that I would say or do the wrong thing. Women pick up on nervousness or awkwardness straight away and it is very off-putting.
I've only ever told my mother about it but she just says "Sure you never had any interest in girls". This is quite hurtful but she doesn't understand.
I don't know how to beat this problem, it seems a bit pointless trying to fix it anyway at my age. I've accepted it, it's just the way it is.
Thanks for reading, sorry for being so self-pitying.

Cianos

woodie99 wrote: »

The problem is I just can't imagine myself having a "girlfriend", I can't see in any way,shape or form that a girl would want to be in a romantic relationship with me. I tried to convince myself "Yes it could happen", but deep down I don't really believe it.

Why is it so hard to believe? Girls want to meet someone as much as guys want to meet someone. Do you recognise a lot of bad qualities in yourself, or is the predominant dissatisfaction you have with yourself simply your lack of confidence?

I've never asked a girl out on a date, I would be too nervous that I would say or do the wrong thing. Women pick up on nervousness or awkwardness straight away and it is very off-putting.

Sure, women can pick up on nervousness, but everyone gets nervous when on a date or flirting. If the woman turned you down for this reason only you probably wouldn't want to be with her anyway. Also, it gets easier the more you try. The first times approaching can be terrifying, but once you get a bit of practice you'll be a lot more comfortable. You just have to put yourself out there and stop living by your fears.

LegacyUser

Cianos wrote: »

Why is it so hard to believe? Girls want to meet someone as much as guys want to meet someone. Do you recognise a lot of bad qualities in yourself, or is the predominant dissatisfaction you have with yourself simply your lack of confidence?

I do recognise a lot of bad qualities in myself, more so when I compare myself with these arrogant bastard types who are (unbelievably) very successful with women.
I just feel like a complete and utter fool when I am trying to chat up a girl, I can't fake that insincerity that others do so naturally. It doesn't help that I am not very satisfied with my situation in life at the moment, I have a degree but I am unemployed and live at home with my parents. I am trying desperately to change this but there's a recession on as you know. Status is important to women (no matter what they say).
I mean it's really going to impress a professional career-driven girl when she asks what I do for a living and I say "Oh actually I don't have a job and I live at home".
I'd rather die than admit to that.

Cianos wrote: »

Sure, women can pick up on nervousness, but everyone gets nervous when on a date or flirting. If the woman turned you down for this reason only you probably wouldn't want to be with her anyway. Also, it gets easier the more you try. The first times approaching can be terrifying, but once you get a bit of practice you'll be a lot more comfortable. You just have to put yourself out there and stop living by your fears.

I know what you're saying is right but I never got practise in my youth because of that acne problem.

LegacyUser

Regarding asking someone out for a date, or chatting them up, or just chatting to them. I am a believer that women should meet you half way. It shouldn't be the guy having to do all the work. Lots of women do this, even if you know or have heard one is into you, you still have to run the risk of making an idiot out of yourself. I think women should meet half way. It shouldn't have to be hard work, there's no craic in that. If it's easy going, then that's telling you something.
That strategy could well work against me, but I don't have the patience at this stage to have "chat up" women. They are either into you or they're not. If they are the chat should like you're talking to your mates...

VaioCruiser

Hi woodie99 - been there ... got the teashirt. I won't go into the details because it is a painful subject for me... you can PM me if you wish.

I will just say to you that if I had known then what it was that I was suffering from, when I was young, - and someone had told me that I could go to some kind of counselling or therapy or relationship classes.... It would have changed my life completely.

I did get over it eventually - but I wish I did not have to wait so long.


All the best.

LegacyUser

This is very interesting stuff Woodie...and I am a woman...I have certainly seen this in people, not just men, but also in women. It takes a slightly different form and becomes more obvious as our society becomes more egalitarian.

Though, of course, in earlier time the religious orders were full of the "love shy" and female.

You might like to know that the whole book "Shyness & Love: Causes, Consequences, and Treatment by Dr. Brian G. Gilmartin" has been made available free, online, by the author, here:
http://www.love-shy.com/Gilmartin/toc.html

MontgomeryClift

I read that article too today. It made an impression on me too.

All I can tell you, woodie99, is that nothing you've written there is new to me.

But what can you do? If you complain, it can only sound pathetic. So you just have to decide that you are the way you are, and live with it. That's my view.

Thanks for the link to that book, unregistered.

LegacyUser

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

I read that article too today. It made an impression on me too.

All I can tell you, woodie99, is that nothing you've written there is new to me.

But what can you do? If you complain, it can only sound pathetic. So you just have to decide that you are the way you are, and live with it. That's my view.

Jeez that's fairly depressing! I am the way I am but I believe I can change it. I might look into CBT, but I'm not sure if I can discuss this problem with a stranger.

VaioCruiser

woodie99 wrote: »

Jeez that's fairly depressing! I am the way I am but I believe I can change it. I might look into CBT, but I'm not sure if I can discuss this problem with a stranger.

You can change. You can LEARN techniques and tricks to help you get over the hurdles while you gain confidence. You CAN talk about it with a concerned skilled stranger !

Life is too short Woodie99. It is just too short to waste any more of it. Get a grip of it by the neck and do it.

All the best.

wylo

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

But what can you do? If you complain, it can only sound pathetic. So you just have to decide that you are the way you are, and live with it. That's my view.

well thats your choice if you wanna take the easy road and live a less happy life then fair enough, but that to me is a waste of the one life we have

BusterHighman

It's simply a matter of confidence and thats it. Sure people might say its self esteem, personal image issues or past experiences but they just boil down to the confidence you have at that particular moment. OP you said that you have no issues when its casual conversation but when it revolves around progressing a relationship (friendship to OH or whatever) it becomes a problem.

I would suggest just relaxing in to it, enjoy the chances life gives you, don't fear them. The encounters you have problems with shouldn't be overshadowed with insecurity but instead imbued with hope and excitement.

As an experiment, no matter how you feel I would suggest just jumping in at the deep end and asking someone out. Just keep positive, if she says no you both just shrug it off (happens to the best of people), you probably end up going for drinks together and you are one step closer to overcoming your fear. Of course in the far more likely event she says yes you master your fears and woes, realize what you have been missing and how easy it is to find and start making up for lost time.

LegacyUser

Unregistered wrote: »

You might like to know that the whole book "Shyness & Love: Causes, Consequences, and Treatment by Dr. Brian G. Gilmartin" has been made available free, online, by the author, here:
http://www.love-shy.com/Gilmartin/toc.html

Wow! I read the first couple of chapters last night - and its like someone turned the light on. I've been single for 15 (yes 15) years after I got very hurt when I was young and just haven't been able to get going again. Its not so much confidence but I've always known there was something a bit deeper but couldn't put my finger on it, but I can really identify with some of what is discussed. It'll be interesting to read more and see how applicable it is to my situation. Thanks so much!!!

LegacyUser

BusterHighman wrote: »

As an experiment, no matter how you feel I would suggest just jumping in at the deep end and asking someone out. Just keep positive, if she says no you both just shrug it off (happens to the best of people), you probably end up going for drinks together and you are one step closer to overcoming your fear. Of course in the far more likely event she says yes you master your fears and woes, realize what you have been missing and how easy it is to find and start making up for lost time.

I don't think I'll be asking any girl out while I am unemployed. It's going to be a real conversation-breaker when that comes up. You say it's a confidence thing and you are probably right. I am at a stage in life (late thirties) where I should be in a permanent job and have my own place to live.
Admitting I have neither of those things affects my confidence straight away. I think if I had a good job and house would make me feel better about mysef, I am sure of it.
I am afraid that by the time I get those things I will be too old to pursue a relationship though. I know nobody can help me get a job or a place to live but fixing this problem I have would be a start.
As I mentioned previously I don't think I could work up the confidence to talk to a counsellor/psychologist. I went to one before and I didn't like it one bit.
But if I don't get on top of this it will affect me for the rest of my life and I don't want that.

LegacyUser

woodie99 wrote: »

I don't think I'll be asking any girl out while I am unemployed. It's going to be a real conversation-breaker when that comes up. You say it's a confidence thing and you are probably right. I am at a stage in life (late thirties) where I should be in a permanent job and have my own place to live.

Do you know I've been saying exactly the same as you in one form or another for the last 10 years:
- what would I have to talk about
- I'm used to doing my own thing
- its been so long I'd have forgotten what to do!
- concentrating on the business (when I ran one)
- unemployed (after I had ran one not too well)
- need to get the job sorted first (I've spent the last 5 years in a "temporary" job)
- need to buy a house (I've 30-50% deposit in cash saved at this stage - albeit of a very small kip - but never the less).

Dude - we're just making excuses so we can stay within our (unhappy) comfort zone.

The reason I don't believe its all about confidence is that I could walk into a bar and chat to any woman, a bit of cheeky chap banter - but once the line is crossed into serious flirting I start to panic. I think that's why my friends are so confused with me. And if I like a girl - we'll then I'm then pretty frozen on the spot (happened in work today, I look at her, she looks at me, I look at the ground... enough :mad:).

MontgomeryClift

readyfreddie wrote: »

And if I like a girl - we'll then I'm then pretty frozen on the spot (happened in work today, I look at her, she looks at me, I look at the ground... enough :mad:).

That's it. It's not a conscious avoidance; it's a reflex. That's why simple "Be confident" and "Be yourself" encouragement doesn't work.

The shyness (or avoidance as I'd rather call it) could probably be overcome with training and repetition, but it would have to be long-term, rigorous, supervised training. Most cases seem to go back to childhood, where romantic skills not only failed to develop, but seemed to go in reverse.

BusterHighman

I'm sorry but again this just sounds like insecurity and a lack of confidence. Woodie99 theres no reason not to ask a woman out while you're unemployed, many people are doing it right now. Simply consider the huge numbers currently unemployed and those employed who are on career breaks. Neither are making particularly large somes of money, some little more than to cover their mortgage. There are even so called unemployed group activities where unemployed people meet up to keep themselves busy and get to know other people in their situation and clearly the issue of income will not be one you will have to broach here.

You do not need a house or a secure job to go out with someone nor will that be the highest priority on everyones list and those who do are probably not the sort of people you want to be in a relationship with. I would advise you to still make the leap and get involved with someone especially if you believe, although there are undertones of sarcasm in your comment, that by the time you are settled enough you will be too old to pursue a relationship. For all you know you may end up living with that person.

I don't think you need to see someone about this issue, particularly if you can come to understand what it is that is holding you back. Inaction is by far the worst thing you can do here. Stop putting yourself down and realize there are numerous great things about you that will appeal to the right person whether you are shy or outgoing, a history or music buff, caring or even uncaring and list goes on and on...and on.

Get to know a few women who appeal to you, be they work colleagues or people from activities you are involved in and then simply build upon these relationships, you can judge yourself which to take to the next level. This simple experience is highlight the fact that there will be many things about you that appeal to women that you would never have considered, either because of a poor self image/esteem issue or because you always took that characteristic for granted.

Oh and cherish your unemployment, this can and has been considered by a great many to be a blessing in disguise. You are free to live your life as you see fit and a whole wealth of opportunities will present themselves that you would never have known of or been able to take advantage of had you still been working. I would definitely consider the chance at making a relationship work as been one of these and for you that should be way up towards the top of your list as opposed to rushing to find another job. If age really is a factor for you get out there now and live your life my friend and relish every new experience as believe me there are some you will never understand how you lived without.

BusterHighman

readyfreddie what you have described is purely confidence and you are spot on with your comfort zone theory. I know because all of this was common to me until I thought to myself "ah sure what the heck" and just didn't retreat into myself. And I'm talking about doing it once here, not some psychological overhaul or intense training, a single so called life changing event. Once you take that step (or several small ones) out of the comfort zone you will never look back.

I strongly believe that simply being a cheeky chappy in a night club is easy for most people as it requires less in the way of confidence and more in the way of courage, two very different things. For example poor self image will not affect how courageous a person is but would definitely affect how confident they feel.

http://realityme.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/mirror-image-perceptions.jpgis a good example of why in general it is men who approach women and not the other way around. Simply reversing the message that image portrays helps to clarify in just one way why some people may have problems and may be so called "love shy". Of course it is deeper than this but if a person is confident of the outcome of an event then they will not have issues becoming involved in said event. This relates also to what they deem the risk vs the reward of the event and thus if they are confident in themselves they can be confident of the outcome.

readyfreddie next time you look at that girl make sure you throw in a little smile or a nod and be confident in the knowledge that it will be returned.