What is rule when no stakes

castle

I hit a drive and the ball went into trees on the left,these tree's where not defined by any stakes.
I seen where the ball went in and when I approached the point where ball went in it was to rough to go in,ie torns etc,
I dropped the ball within 2 club lengths of point of entry no nearer the hole and proceeded to play my 3rd shot thus taken a one penalty stroke.
Is this correct or should I have gone back and played 3 of the tee,

Also Can you call a ball unplayable without seeing it.

uberwolf

instinctively, I would have thought this was a lost ball, and should have played a provo from the tee.

and that an unseen ball is lost, not unplayable.

OilBeefHooked2

castle wrote: »

I hit a drive and the ball went into trees on the left,these tree's where not defined by any stakes.
I seen where the ball went in and when I approached the point where ball went in it was to rough to go in,ie torns etc,
I dropped the ball within 2 club lengths of point of entry no nearer the hole and proceeded to play my 3rd shot thus taken a one penalty stroke.
Is this correct or should I have gone back and played 3 of the tee,

Also Can you call a ball unplayable without seeing it.

Your ball is lost and you must go back and play from where you last played, that is the only option available to you.
You can call a ball unplayable anywhere on the course at anytime, but yes you have to be able to see it, otherwise it is lost.

GreeBo

Unless the ball is in a hazard, any non-free relief is taken from the ball, not the point of entry. Especially where you havent actually entered anything! Unless its marked by posts, a line, signage you are still on the course and must find your ball before you can declare it lost.

In this instance your only option was to play 3 from the tee for a lost ball.
If you had found it you could
a) replay
b) drop within two clublengths of the ball
3) go back as far as you want keeping a line between your ball and the flag.

stockdam

The ball wasn't in a hazard and since you couldn't see it or identify it then it was lost. In that case you must go back to where you played your last shot from.

OilBeefHooked2

GreeBo wrote: »

Unless the ball is in a hazard, any non-free relief is taken from the ball, not the point of entry. Especially where you havent actually entered anything! Unless its marked by posts, a line, signage you are still on the course and must not find your ball before you can declare it lost.

In this instance your only option was to play 3 from the tee for a lost ball.
If you had found it you could
a) replay from the last place you played from.
b) drop within two clublengths of where the ball came to rest.
3) go back as far as you want keeping a the line between where your ball came to rest and the flag.

FYP

uberwolf

something is grating with me - situ yesterday.

Playing partners drive, hook into tree's with red stake water hazard down the side.

Unclear whether ball entered hazard.

Call's provo and takes his 3rd. Ultimately, we couldn't find ball and he played his provo.

Had he found ball in play, would there have been an issue? I can't place my problem, but it just seemed funny.

PhilipMarlowe

Correct procedure right there... correct to play a provo when there was doubt.
If you found the ball in play you pick up the provisional.
If you couldn't find the ball, you couldn't be certain that it was lost in the hazard unless you absolutely saw it go in there so you'd have to treat as a lost ball and play 3 off the tee (using the provisional is fine here).
If you found the ball but it was in the hazard, you'd have to proceed under the options of that hazard but the provisional wouldn't be one of those options so drop out from point of entry or going back to the tee again.

uberwolf

we didn't find the ball, but he intended to play the provo had he found the ball, on the basis that a drop would have been blocked out by tree's. He said as much on the tee. TBH, I wouldn't be comfortable calling someone on that. Should you?

PhilipMarlowe

Like I said, had he found the original ball then provisional becomes dead (unless the original was OOB). On finding the original he'd have to proceed with it either playing it, unplayable, drop out of hazard, return to the tee etc. etc. but the provisional wouldn't be one of his options.

GreeBo

david-k wrote: »

FYP

Other than "Must not find your ball" (still trying to figure out what I was saying there myself) I Dont see how what you added made any difference.

a) If you are replaying a shot you are obviously replaying it from the same place as last time, otherwise you are "replaying" some other shot.
b) I've yet to see someone measure a drop from a moving ball :rolleyes:
c) there is only 1 line that incorporates your ball and the flag. So there is no difference between "a line" and "the line".

But hey, some people like anal...:pac:

OilBeefHooked2

GreeBo wrote: »

Other than "Must not find your ball" (still trying to figure out what I was saying there myself) I Dont see how what you added made any difference.

a) If you are replaying a shot you are obviously replaying it from the same place as last time, otherwise you are "replaying" some other shot.
b) I've yet to see someone measure a drop from a moving ball :rolleyes:
c) there is only 1 line that incorporates your ball and the flag. So there is no difference between "a line" and "the line".

But hey, some people like anal...:pac:

Whatever floats your boat buddy.

GreeBo

david-k wrote: »

Whatever floats your boat buddy.

FYP.

f22

If he knew the ball was in serious **** he can declare it a lost ball without even searching for it. I suppose it's one of those blurry rules in golf that can work in your favour.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

If he knew the ball was in serious **** he can declare it a lost ball without even searching for it. I suppose it's one of those blurry rules in golf that can work in your favour.

Actually thats one of the greatest myths in golf.
You can never declare a ball lost.

From here

Can a player verbally declare his ball to be lost?

A player may not render a ball lost solely by declaration It is not what the player says that matters, it is what he does.
A ball can only be considered lost when (a) it is not found or identified as his by the player within 5 minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or (b) the player has played any stroke with a provisional ball from the place where the original is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place; or (c) the player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1a); or (d) the player has put a ball into play under any of the “known or virtually certain” Rules, e.g. ball that is not found is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3); or (e) the player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

f22

GreeBo wrote: »

Actually thats one of the greatest myths in golf.
You can never declare a ball lost.

From here

Well indeed you can, yes you must make an effort to look for the ball, but in reality you could be looking into the trees 20 foot away from where the ball was without any penalty of breaking any rules.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

Well indeed you can, yes you must make an effort to look for the ball, but in reality you could be looking into the trees 20 foot away from where the ball was without any penalty of breaking any rules.

Nope you cannot. Read the quote again.

You are under no obligation to look for the ball.

A ball is only lost under the details I quoted above.
Also, if you deliberately look for a ball 20 foot away from where it is then you run the risk of someone else finding it and being forced to play it.

Anyway, why would you look for a ball you didnt want to find?
The ball would be deemed "lost" by you playing a 2nd ball off the tee that you do not declare a provisional.

Mister Sifter

How about in matchplay? Can your opponent look for a ball for you if they say 'had a look, can't see it, it's lost.' ?

f22

How that rule is enforced is quite neglible to be honest. I've seen it in the Barton Shield finals for example, with GUI officials everywhere. Ball shanked into major crap, provo hit, quick walk around the general direction before declaring it lost pretty quickly.

Play on.

PhilipMarlowe

Yes but as posted above, the 'declaration' of the ball being lost has no meaning... If you were to have a quick look, give up, "declare the ball lost", walk towards your provo and somebody else were to find the original before you hit the provo (and within 5 mins) you would be OBLIGED to play the original or proceed under whatever unplayabe option you wanted to use...
As GreeBo said, the declaration itself is meaningless, it's your actions that count. You can give a quick look, give up on a hopeless cause but it's you hitting the next shot that makes the original lost.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

How that rule is enforced is quite neglible to be honest. I've seen it in the Barton Shield finals for example, with GUI officials everywhere. Ball shanked into major crap, provo hit, quick walk around the general direction before declaring it lost pretty quickly.

Play on.

Why would you hit a provo if your original is more than likely somewhere you dont want to find it?
FYI the reason for this is to stop people potentially having two balls in play.

You must decide before you hit a second ball if its a provisional or not.
Otherwise you can hit a bad drive, hit a second ball then as you get near where your first might be you can see that it didnt get a nice kick and since you cant see it, its more than likely unplayable and *then* decide that your second ball is the one in play.

Likeywise you cant hit a bad tee shot on a part 3, then hit a second and when it lands an inch from the hole decide that the first ball is "lost". What if you hit the second ball into the same ****e and then find the first ball?

Having to declare your intentions before playing a subsequent shot eliminates all this.

f22

GreeBo wrote: »

Why would you hit a provo if your original is more than likely somewhere you dont want to find it?
FYI the reason for this is to stop people potentially having two balls in play.

The simple answer is because it could be deemed more beneficial for you not to find the original ball. It also saves time by not having to return to the tee box to hit your third shot.

PhilipMarlowe

In which case, you wouldn't call a provisional but just hit 3 from the tee???

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

The simple answer is because it could be deemed more beneficial for you not to find the original ball. It also saves time by not having to return to the tee box to hit your third shot.

But your way breaks the rules of golf.
"Could". Could means that you are making your decision when you get to the balls. The ROG mean that you have to make this decision on the tee.

For example, you cannot hit a provo, find your first in trouble and then decide to continue with the provo.
Otherwise you could hit two balls off every tee and play the best one. This could be very useful on par 3's.

f22

GreeBo wrote: »

But your way breaks the rules of golf.
"Could". Could means that you are making your decision when you get to the balls. The ROG mean that you have to make this decision on the tee.

For example, you cannot hit a provo, find your first in trouble and then decide to continue with the provo.
Otherwise you could hit two balls off every tee and play the best one. This could be very useful on par 3's.

In certain competitions you are advised to hit a provisional if your ball is in trouble to keep up play (the JSC in Baltray) this year for example. The rough was horrendous. If you're first ball was lost, the provisional ball was in play and you continued.

Where I agree the rules state make every attempt to find your ball your par 3 example is way off what I am referring to.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

In certain competitions you are advised to hit a provisional if your ball is in trouble to keep up play (the JSC in Baltray) this year for example. The rough was horrendous. If you're first ball was lost, the provisional ball was in play and you continued.

The advise you to play a provisional so that you do not have to walk back to the tee in case you cannot find your first ball (as most of the players are visitors and can loose a ball easily)
They are NOT telling you to play a provo and then use that provo if your first ball is unplayable!

f22 wrote: »

Where I agree the rules state make every attempt to find your ball your par 3 example is way off what I am referring to.

But they dont state that you need to make any attempt to look for your ball!
You say my par 3 example is way off, but by allowing your method you make my par3 example perfectly legal.
Here is another example of why you cant have 2 balls in play.

Im buried in a bunker and my first attempt to get out shanks it off into the trees over a river. Now by your logic I can play a provisonal from the bunker in case I hit a better shot even including the penalty. Obviously in a match this is a huge advantage.

stockdam

GreeBo wrote: »

For example, you cannot hit a provo, find your first in trouble and then decide to continue with the provo.

I believe you are correct. You can hit a provisional if you think your first may be lost. However if you find your first ball then your provisional is no longer available to play. If you then decide to deem your first unplayable then one of your options is to go back to the tee/where you last hit from.

f22

Where did I ever mention the word unplayable, obviously if the ball is found it is inplay. In my example the provisional ball (as happened me on the third hole in Baltray) wasn't found, was declared a lost ball so the provisional ball came into play.

Things seem to be going around in circles and I actually agree with most of your points.

It is a rule that could be used to your advantage.

GreeBo

stockdam wrote: »

I believe you are correct. You can hit a provisional if you think your first may be lost.

100% Im afraid. This just adds to my thoughts that rules are broken by good golfers everyday.

Also you can play a provo at any time and you do not have to look for your original ball. The provo only becomes the ball in play when you make a stroke at it, on or past the point where you believe your original ball to be (or its in the hole..whichever happens first )
If someone else finds your original while its still in play (within 5 mins and before your provo is the ball in play) your provo is no longer in play. Note that this means in a match the entire other team can go hunting for your ball for 5 mins unless you get your provo in play first. Though if you hit your ball out of turn they can make you replay it and then find your other ball in the meantime. Lovely game huh

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

For example, you cannot hit a provo, find your first in trouble and then decide to continue with the provo.
.

I don't think F22 ever suggested this.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

Where did I ever mention the word unplayable, obviously if the ball is found it is inplay.
It is a rule that could be used to your advantage.

well when you said "If he knew the ball was in serious **** he can declare it a lost ball without even searching for it. I suppose it's one of those blurry rules in golf that can work in your favour."
That to me means that you have two balls on the go...you have a wander up and dont see the first one so you play away with the second. This is onlky possible if you actually say the word "provisional" on the tee. YOu cant say "ill hit another just in case" or anything like that. If you do then your second ball is the ball in play no matter what.

Also, there is nothing blurry about it. Its pretty simple and well defined. The tone of your posts indicates to me that you think you can figure it out when you get down there. The rules state that you figure it out on the tee.
You cannot, for example, spend 2 mins looking for a ball and then run back and play a provo while everyone else keeps looking. If you do the second ball is the ball in play even if the first is found within the 5 min limit.

GreeBo

denisoc16 wrote: »

I don't think F22 ever suggested this.

but by saying you can "declare it lost" it implies the same thing. It implies that you can prevent people from looking for it once you have decided that its not sitting anywhere that you would want to play it from.

Mister Sifter

The golf forum on Boards... making simple rules questions clear as mud since 2005.

f22

GreeBo wrote: »

but by saying you can "declare it lost" it implies the same thing. It implies that you can prevent people from looking for it once you have decided that its not sitting anywhere that you would want to play it from.

The only thing that appears to be in debate here and that seems to be lost is the word "provisional", which I mentioned in my Barton Shield example.

If you think your ball is in danger of being unfindable/lost you can hit a provisional ball before searching (however intensely you like) before you can deem your first ball a lost ball. Then, and only then does your provisional ball become "in play".

The blurry bit I referred to is the searching for your ball bit. If it's in 4 foot elephant grass (which would be next to impossible to find anyway) and your provisional ball straight down the middle, you are hardly going to try your best to find the original ball are you?

That's my last contribution to this clear as mud debate.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

The only thing that appears to be in debate here and that seems to be lost is the word "provisional", which I mentioned in my Barton Shield example.

If you think your ball is in danger of being unfindable/lost you can hit a provisional ball before searching (however intensely you like) before you can deem your first ball a lost ball. Then, and only then does your provisional ball become "in play".

The blurry bit I referred to is the searching for your ball bit. If it's in 4 foot elephant grass (which would be next to impossible to find anyway) and your provisional ball straight down the middle, you are hardly going to try your best to find the original ball are you?

That's my last contribution to this clear as mud debate.

Two comments.
You can never "deem your ball" lost.
Your ball is lost when you take any of the actions I outlined in my earlier post.

The fact that you would call your second ball a provisional when its in elephant grass still says to me that you are not fully understanding the rule.
If you dont want to find it why are you calling your second ball a provo in the first place? The only possible reason I can think of is "in case" your first ball is not in trouble.

f22

1. After 5 minutes of searching (however intently) for a ball the ball is deemed a lost ball

2. The second ball hit is called "provisional" because the first ball is in trouble and stands a high risk of being lost. There's no confusion on my part at all. If the first ball is found the provo is picked up, if the first ball is lost my provional ball comes into play.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

2. The second ball hit is called "provisional" because the first ball is in trouble and stands a high risk of being lost. There's no confusion on my part at all. If the first ball is found the provo is picked up, if the first ball is lost my provional ball comes into play.

But why are you calling it a provo if you are not going to look for it properly and dont want to find it? Why not just hit 3 off the tee and continue?

f22

GreeBo wrote: »

But why are you calling it a provo if you are not going to look for it properly and dont want to find it? Why not just hit 3 off the tee and continue?

Jesus you are going around in circle here.

You are entitled to play a provisional ball if you feel your first ball may be in trouble, if the first becomes a lost ball the provisional ball comes into play, you lie there in 3 and play your 4th shot.

I'm bored now like everyone else so let it go.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

Jesus you are going around in circle here.

You are entitled to play a provisional ball if you feel your first ball may be in trouble, if the first becomes a lost ball the provisional ball comes into play, you lie there in 3 and play your 4th shot.

I'm bored now like everyone else so let it go.

Mohammed, but you keep stating that you are not going to look for the ball as its in elephant grass and you dont want to find it.
So why on earth would you declare it a provo? All that does is leave you open to the possibility of someone finding it and then you must play that as the ball in play. There is no upside to calling a ball a provo when you absolutely do not want to find the first ball.

You do know that you can just play 3 from the tee and not declare it a provo right?

f22

GreeBo wrote: »

You do know that you can just play 3 from the tee and not declare it a provo right?

By your reading of the rules I have to make a reasonable attempt to find the first ball.

By playing a provisional I leave myself open to the chance that my ball may have hit a tree for example a bounced into a favourable position. IThe provisional ball leaves an option open to me under the rules of golf.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

By your reading of the rules I have to make a reasonable attempt to find the first ball.

I never said you had to make any attempt. In fact I said that the rules dont mention having to make an attempt to look for a ball.

f22 wrote: »

By playing a provisional I leave myself open to the chance that my ball may have hit a tree for example a bounced into a favourable position. IThe provisional ball leaves an option open to me under the rules of golf.

Yes but you also leave yourself open to the chance that the ball is sitting in the tree. You can only determine this for sure by having a look and at that stage (assuming the ball is found somewhere) your provo is worthless.

f22

It's all about choice my friend, the ball may have popped back into the fairway without anyone seeing it.

We shall agree to disagree on the subject, much to everyone elses relief.

Miley Byrne

As far as I understand it F22 is saying that if his first ball is in trouble, he hits a provisional beacuse even though his first might be in knee high grass, there is still a chance it might be fine. So if he played 3 from the tee (not a provisional) and he went down and found his first ball in a playable position he would still have to pick it up and play the second one. All he is saying is that if after he hits a provisional he walks down to see if his first is ok. He then checks in a place where he would like it to be lying and if he doesn't find it he proceeds to declare it lost and plays his provisional from the middle of the fairway and gets down in 2 from there for a bogey!!! I don't see anything wrong with that. Correct me if I'm wrong F22 but that is my grasp of the point you are trying to get across

GreeBo

denisoc16 wrote: »

He then checks in a place where he would like it to be lying and if he doesn't find it he proceeds to declare it lost

The problem is that you cannot declare a ball lost.
Your opponent can spend 5 minutes looking for your first ball, find it up to its neck in sh1te and you are screwed.

f22

denisoc16 wrote: »

As far as I understand it F22 is saying that if his first ball is in trouble, he hits a provisional beacuse even though his first might be in knee high grass, there is still a chance it might be fine. So if he played 3 from the tee (not a provisional) and he went down and found his first ball in a playable position he would still have to pick it up and play the second one. All he is saying is that if after he hits a provisional he walks down to see if his first is ok. He then checks in a place where he would like it to be lying and if he doesn't find it he proceeds to declare it lost and plays his provisional from the middle of the fairway and gets down in 2 from there for a bogey!!! I don't see anything wrong with that. Correct me if I'm wrong F22 but that is my grasp of the point you are trying to get across

Denisoc, you are correct, I had assumed I was being clear.

Greebo, your opponent (matchplay) can search all he wants, in strokeplay why would your playing partners search when you've given up and proceeded to your provisional ball?

jimbling

GreeBo wrote: »

The problem is that you cannot declare a ball lost.
Your opponent can spend 5 minutes looking for your first ball, find it up to its neck in sh1te and you are screwed.

Surely it's worth the risk that your opponent is not going to do so. And even if it was a matchplay or some such format can you not just stop looking, go over to your provo and hit that. Once you strike that ball it makes no difference if your first is found. Is that correct?

Okay, there's the off chance your bastard of an opponent will find it in the meantime, but it's not all that likely. It's all about risk vs reward. I would say that majority of times you are much better off calling it a provo just in case your first is in a better position than you thought.

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

The problem is that you cannot declare a ball lost.
.

If I have searched for 5 minutes and haven't found my ball, is it deemed lost or not......

RANDA: A ball can only be considered lost when (a) it is not found or identified as his by the player within 5 minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it;

In my book the ball is lost if I have failed to find it in 5 minutes. I don't see how it is very complicated.

GreeBo

denisoc16 wrote: »

If I have searched for 5 minutes and haven't found my ball, is it deemed lost or not......

RANDA: A ball can only be considered lost when (a) it is not found or identified as his by the player within 5 minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it;

In my book the ball is lost if I have failed to find it in 5 minutes. I don't see how it is very complicated.

Its not complicated at all, yet you still dont seem to understand it.
There is a huge difference between "declaring" a ball lost and a ball being "deemed" lost.
For the last time. You cannot declare a golf ball lost.

If, at this stage you still do not understand that then I suggest that you read the Rules of Golf again.

"And even if it was a matchplay or some such format can you not just stop looking, go over to your provo and hit that. Once you strike that ball it makes no difference if your first is found. Is that correct?"

Correct, as long as it was your turn to play and the provo was at or past the point that you can reasonably assume the original ball would be.