Garage haven't fixed my problem - do I have to pay?

Philip42

Hi,

I've left my VW Golf TDi into a well known VW Service Centre - not mentioning any names.

Anyway, there's a problem with the car misfiring badly under accelaration and puffing out black smoke (more than normal). Anyway, I left the car in last Wednesday to be fixed and after a few hours I was called and told that there was a faulty injector which would require replacing 450 part + labour + VAT which worked out a grand!! I told them to fire ahead with the work.

Just got a call today to say that the car is greatly improved by the new injector, BUT is still misfiring under accelaration!! They offered me the car back, but obviously I've said I don't want it back unfixed!! They said that it'll require another two hours of searching to find the problem with the car (about another 300 euro!), so I said fair enough...I'd rather have the car back fixed for 1300 than in the same state for 1000!!

If on Monday afternoon I get a call and they still haven't found the problem am I seriously obliged to hand over 1300 quid for the car back the same as it was??!!! Surely I have some rights here?

Any helpful comments would be a appreciated. The car is a 2002 and I'm seriously debating whether it's worth going much further with this car considering how the second hand car market is at the moment.

Regards


Philip

rx8

You'll find a lot of information in here, http://www.consumerassociation.ie/rights_knowrights.htmlbut basically you shouldn't pay them until you are 100% satisfied and they are guaranteeing any work done for a reasonable time.

Are they a VW service centre or a main dealer ? Communication with VW Ireland is essential if they are a main dealer. They don't have a clue what they are at so can't expect payment, I'd hazard a guess there was f all wrong with the injector.

anon11

I know the wiring looms for the injectors on these give trouble:) More than the injectors themselves do;)

Philip42

Thanks guys,

Well the plot is a bit thicker than that too. I previously brought the car to a mechanic who replaced the wiring loom and this didn't resolve the issue a couple of weeks ago which cost me about 200 in total. So the bill is seriously starting to ratchet up...I reckon you're right mate....I doubt the injector was the problem at all, but I'm damned if I'm going to hand over another 1300 quid on Monday afternoon if they haven't fixed the problem! I'm not a charitable organisation!

I don't know if I can mention this on here, but sod it, I will...it's MSL...they're the main VW repair centre as far as I know. I kind of thought that if anyone could fix the problem they'd be able to, but it's not looking good now...

Bummer, I'd get on the phone to someone senior in MSL, they need to prove the work they did was required, also that it was beneficial, if not they can't expect you to pay. Replacing bits in a trial and error fashion is not on. A decent independent garage is usually a better bet than many main dealers.

Philip42

RoverJames wrote: »

Bummer, I'd get on the phone to someone senior in MSL, they need to prove the work they did was required, also that it was beneficial, if not they can't expect you to pay. Replacing bits in a trial and error fashion is not on. A decent independent garage is usually a better bet than many main dealers.

Yeah mate, I totally agree with you. I'll have to phone someone else if this problem isn't sorted. I don't think I'll be parting with my cash until I drive the car and can see an improvement. Incidently they suggested that I take the car back today. I said I didn't want it if it's not fixed. I was debating taking it for the weekend because I think I'd be in a worse position bringing the car into them next Monday...they'd probably say that they wouldn't be able to look at it until end of the week or something, and that would seriously **** me off!!

I had the car with a friend of mine....a fairly good mechanic, but in the end he was stumped and didn't want to start changing parts until he knew what the problem was. In the end he wasn't confident to proceed any further, and suggested a place in Carlow - http://www.hpmp.ie/. Now I looked at their site and they looked very promising, so I called them and lo and behold they were about to go on holiday for a week, so I was impetuous and left it with MSL thinking they'd be able to fix it, so it turns out that I could have waited and left it in Carlow after all, because that's next Monday, and I'll probably end up leaving the car in that Carlow place in the end of it all after paying those MSL ****** 1300 quid!!

Maybe I'm being premature with my rant, but they've had my car since Wednesday morning...am I confident that they'll have the issue resolved in two hours on Monday morning? Not really...I'll be the first to publicly (on this board) retract my comments if I get it back fixed, but I can't help being doubtful.

They cannot take €1300 off you and give you the car back the way it was, do not give them any money, demand on speaking to someone senior there.

Philip42

Thanks for the advice mate - I think I'll be doing that alright...I can't hand over the money with the car still broken....it's a bit like bringing the car in to be fixed and them replacing the windscreen because it has a chip...totally irrelevant...

The only thing I will say is, they rang me in advance of replacing the injector and I told them to proceed with the work (assuming it was going to fix it!), so maybe by giving my go ahead I've weakened my position.

That's common practice, in case when you go to collect you have an issue paying xyz for the repaired car, please do remind the folk there that the car is still in the state it was, and that what they have done has not improved things in any way. Don't be fobbed off by their technical bla bla bla, you are a consumer with rights.

Philip42

RoverJames wrote: »

That's common practice, in case when you go to collect you have an issue paying xyz for the repaired car, please do remind the folk there that the car is still in the state it was, and that what they have done has not improved things in any way. Don't be fobbed off by their technical bla bla bla, you are a consumer with rights.

Cheers mate - I'll be taking your advice. I'll go out in the car with one of their mechanics and if it's the same as it was I won't be paying, and if they've got a problem with that I'll be having words with someone senior in their. I specifically stated when I went in that it was vibrating and misfiring badly under accelaration. The cheek of them ringing me and saying everything's fine with it APART FROM THE FACT THAT IT'S STILL MISFIRING UNDER ACCELARATION!! What a ******* joke....

slimjimmc

Philip42 wrote: »

They said that it'll require another two hours of searching to find the problem with the car (about another 300 euro!),

Did anyone else notice this? €300 for 2hrs = €150/hr :eek: Even if that includes VAT it seems a bit excessive to me.

Never knew about http://www.hpmp.ie/ in Tullow and they're only 10mins away, thanks.

Turlock

OP personally I wouldn't dream of taking the car back until you're happy the money issue has been resolved. As you say go up and drive the car round the block with one of their mechanics. If the problem is still there leave the car with them and tell them that you're not willing to pay a stupid ridiculous sum of money when they don't know what they're doing. You brought it to a VW dealer BECAUSE they should know what they're doing.

As was said get onto VW Ireland and go mental, you're not paying to have trainee's learn on your car (especially for €150 an hour). Make sure they keep the car coz once you take it back it's easier for them to fob you off.

darragh o meara

yes i would advise ringing the higher up monkeys in the garage and then ringing VW ireland themselves. Also if you need the car sorted bring it to Liam Gleeson in Diesel injection services in Cashel Co. Tipperary. I had a similar problem with a new Octavia last year which the dealer couldnt find. Was out in his place collecting stuff for the place I was working and asked him about it and he knew straight off what it could be and sorted it out fairly reasonable too. If anyone knows its him, Some of the Mercedes technical lads in Ireland ring him regularly about problems they're having.

Philip42

Thanks for the info lads, and that guy in Tipperary might be an option - a bit far from Dublin, but an option to consider all the same. Fingers crossed that they're able to sort it on Monday. If not I'll have to stick up for my rights.

Lobster

anon11 wrote: »

I know the wiring looms for the injectors on these give trouble:) More than the injectors themselves do;)

True! I had the same symptoms, though never noticed the smoking, that doesn't mean it wasn't there. The garage man (non VW dealer) told me it was a socket that was dirty or dusty that needed cleaning and the pins straightened I think. I'm not mechanically minded and this is what I gathered from his explanation. He charged 70 euro, 30 of which was for the diagnostics. I think the diagnostics showed a problem with one of the injectors which it wasn't really. Car is going perfect again.

Harcrid

Omeara_darragh wrote: »

yes i would advise ringing the higher up monkeys in the garage and then ringing VW ireland themselves. Also if you need the car sorted bring it to Liam Gleeson in Diesel injection services in Cashel Co. Tipperary. I had a similar problem with a new Octavia last year which the dealer couldnt find. Was out in his place collecting stuff for the place I was working and asked him about it and he knew straight off what it could be and sorted it out fairly reasonable too. If anyone knows its him, Some of the Mercedes technical lads in Ireland ring him regularly about problems they're having.

+1 for Diesel injection services. Had a problem with my last car which Opel could not fix so I took it to Liam who diagnosed and repaired it for a very reasonable price.

maidhc

S 39 of the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act requires:

( a ) that the supplier has the necessary skill to render the service,


( b ) that he will supply the service with due skill, care and diligence,


( c ) that, where materials are used, they will be sound and reasonably fit for the purpose for which they are required, and

( d ) that, where goods are supplied under the contract, they will be of merchantable quality within the meaning of section 14 (3) of the Act of 1893 (inserted by section 10 of this Act).

Now the fact your cars is still not fixed would point to the fact they did not quite manage to fulfull a and b above. In light of the amount of money you have spent I think it would be reasonable at this stage to have a fixed car.

Philip42

maidhc wrote: »

S 39 of the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act requires:


Now the fact your cars is still not fixed would point to the fact they did not quite manage to fulfull a and b above. In light of the amount of money you have spent I think it would be reasonable at this stage to have a fixed car.

Thanks mate - cheers for the info. I'll bear that in mind when I go to pick it up tomorrow (that's if it's ready tomorrow!)

Philip42

Well, I got my car back from MSL today!! I left it in on the 5th of August!!! I can honestly say I've never dealt with anyone like them. In summary, week one, I'm told I have a faulty injector and when I ask if it will fix the problem I'm assured it will.....it doesn't....1000 euro.....week 2, I'm told they've found another faulty injector which needs replacing and THIS will fix the problem (and this one for some reason is 1200 euro...it doesn't fix it...2200 euro...week three I'm told I need new camshafts and 8 lifters because they're worn! Cost 1500 euro!! Total 3700 euro!! :eek:Bear in mind this is a 2002 Golf! At this stage I flipped out and more or less said I wasn't paying unless the price was reduced (I had been assured earlier that the labour would be reduced)...so the bidding started, they said ok, 3330 (10%!!)..I said no, 3000...they asked would I pay 3200...I said no 3000, the following day I was dealing with a different person and I was told the best they could do would be 3300!!! (WTF happened to 3200?!!)

Anyway, as you can understand I was sick to my eye teeth of the whole business at this stage...I said I wasn't happy with their service and also the way they increased the bill each week for three weeks, and how come they only discovered these faulty cams in the third week it was with them! I also told them if they'd given me the full estimate on day one I would've reconsidered getting it fixed. Anyway, I have the car back now, and it's running fine, except for a faulty temperature gauge...a cheap fix I think but it was grand when it went in, but I'll be damned if I'm leaving my car in again to them so they can tell me I need four new wheels because of the temperature gauge!

Incidently, my invoice had 2 pumps on it which weren't mentioned to me throughout

Would I recommend MSL...not on your nelly!

Seth Brundle

Did you pay them the €3300?

Philip42

I'm afraid so...yes...as I said above, if they'd told me 3300 from day one/two, I wouldn't have bothered, but because they got me to agree to each amount in increments, each time promising it would fix the issue I was in a "I've started so I'll finish" position...a bit sly really...

Mr.Diagnostic

The fault you had with the car, namely worn cam lobes, is quite common.
I think you have a right to expect a dealer workshop should be able to diagnose that without fitting parts (injectors) that were not required. What makes it worse is if you consider that the injectors are actually driven off the cam then any half experienced tech should have seen the cam problem before they fitted the first injector, never mind the second one.
In my view, you are due a lump of money back along with an apology. Time to get onto MSL again, service manager first then higher if needed.

Eccles

My God thats outrageous ...sadly the idea that you get a higher standard of service at main dealers is often untrue.Modern turbodiesels seem to be a bit of a potential nightmare when things start going wrong with the engine/fuel system.I knew one case where a Merc main dealer had to admit defeat and buy back a rough running 320CDi...Just last week went into my friendly local Toyota (yeah not Fiat or Kia!)main dealer to get clutch cable adjusted (should have just done it myself but was feeling lazy)...Got the car back with the pedal now EVEN FURTHER out ,theyd adjusted it the wrong way !

Mr.Diagnostic

What Toyota has a clutch cable? I thought they were all hydraulic.

jaffa20

You're crazy paying them that sort of money. You could of sold your car for a grand more.

kluivert

Seek advice from the consumer association and write a letter to the people who serviced your car.

Get a quote from at least 2 other garages for similiar work required to fix the problem.

Ask for compensation for un necessary work done and carried out.

Make sure all communication is in writing and you keep copies of your own letters.

Am glad your an honest person, someone less honest would have given them a cheque and then rang there bank after leaving the garage to cancell the cheque.

Stealdo

kluivert wrote: »

Seek advice from the consumer association and write a letter to the people who serviced your car.

Get a quote from at least 2 other garages for similiar work required to fix the problem.

Ask for compensation for un necessary work done and carried out.

Make sure all communication is in writing and you keep copies of your own letters.

Am glad your an honest person, someone less honest would have given them a cheque and then rang there bank after leaving the garage to cancell the cheque.

Do all of the above and do not have anyone else work on the car to fix the temp gauge until this is all resolved. Having someone else tinkering in there just gives them an opportunity to dispute things.
VW Ireland and the National Consumer Agency are your next stops. That's completely outrageous.

With things like this it's generally not a bad idea to ask for the parts their removing to be returned to you, they are yours after all, that way you can have someone else assess how worn they are or whether there were visible defects (i.e. the cam) that should have been seen when they were doing the original investigation. You should not be paying for someone else's incompetence.

Philip42

Thanks for your advice guys, and I agree with you all. They actually had the cheek to say that all their parts are guaranteed for two years! So if something goes wrong with the car within the next two years, what's the odds that it won't be one of the parts they've replaced?! :rolleyes: I'll definitely be following this up.

BostonB

Seems crazy to me that a main dealer can't fix their own make cars. I've had this problem in the past with Opel. Couldn't fix a problem that made the car an economic write off. I've had far better results from independent specialists.

johndaman66

Stealdo wrote: »

With things like this it's generally not a bad idea to ask for the parts their removing to be returned to you, they are yours after all, that way you can have someone else assess how worn they are or whether there were visible defects (i.e. the cam) that should have been seen when they were doing the original investigation.

Would have to agree. Although not absolute proof it is reasonable proof that the parts were actually replaced also...don't just think this is a myth and doesn't happen cos it does. The reason I say it is not absolute proof is because the injectors they might give you may be from a previous customers car that they still happen to have lying around.

OP I would certainly think the small claims court is an option. There is a lot of information and application form available on the interweb. You will probably be thinking its grand for me to say it, I don't know your circumstances and how much you depend on your car but think you may have weakened your case somewhat by paying for the work and taking it back of them. All I'm saying and I may be wrong is that you would probably be in a stronger position if the car was still with the garage and you had not paid any money over to them.

On a side note and not to rub it in but things like your experience are the reason I vowed never to go back to a diesel car again. Think the general idea that you will be quids in with a diesel car is a total misconception. Even if you are doing serious mileage realistically most fuel savings are wiped out but the extra costs you will pay in tax and if not, servicing and repairs will be sure to wipe out any savings or better resale values quite often. In fact quite often I'm sure the equivalent diesel will cost a hell of a lot more over its life than the petrol model. I don't want to be too sweeping in my opinion but all I'm saying is people should think more carefully before following the crowd and buying a diesel for the sake of it. I know people driving diesel cars, doing less than 15,000 miles a year and they think they are saving

BostonB

We had that with a VW steering rack. Didn't fix the problem so got them to fit the old one. Only paid a token for labour.

Philip42

johndaman66 wrote: »

Would have to agree. Although not absolute proof it is reasonable proof that the parts were actually replaced also...don't just think this is a myth and doesn't happen cos it does. The reason I say it is not absolute proof is because the injectors they might give you may be from a previous customers car that they still happen to have lying around.

OP I would certainly think the small claims court is an option. There is a lot of information and application form available on the interweb. You will probably be thinking its grand for me to say it, I don't know your circumstances and how much you depend on your car but think you may have weakened your case somewhat by paying for the work and taking it back of them. All I'm saying and I may be wrong is that you would probably be in a stronger position if the car was still with the garage and you had not paid any money over to them.

On a side note and not to rub it in but things like your experience are the reason I vowed never to go back to a diesel car again. Think the general idea that you will be quids in with a diesel car is a total misconception. Even if you are doing serious mileage realistically most fuel savings are wiped out but the extra costs you will pay in tax and if not, servicing and repairs will be sure to wipe out any savings or better resale values quite often. In fact quite often I'm sure the equivalent diesel will cost a hell of a lot more over its life than the petrol model. I don't want to be too sweeping in my opinion but all I'm saying is people should think more carefully before following the crowd and buying a diesel for the sake of it. I know people driving diesel cars, doing less than 15,000 miles a year and they think they are saving

Hi lads,

Yeah, I've definitely weakened my position by forking out the cash, but when you're without your car for over a month (was with an independent mechanic for about two weeks in addition to MSL) when the option of getting it back arrives you grab it with both hands...I was just sick of the whole business. The money aspect was really bad, but the length of time it took for a VW main dealer to fix the car was crazy!

I was under the misconception that they might've been the best people to leave the car with! I haved to agree with the above also. I bought the diesel with the understanding that I'd save money in the long run...I'll be along time driving to recoup those costs!

If nothing else, it'd be great if this served as a lesson to other people considering using them. I had been warned beforehand about them, but I didn't have many options at the time.