Pretending to have a religious experience

bakkiesbotha

I have been watching God TV a little bit recently. Usually they are showing Christian rallies / mass meetings. The preachers at these gatherings vary hugely. I have seen a guy with tattoos and piercings shouting and knocking people over, rock groups, people telling personal stories, Africans, the Ian Paisley types, you name it. And the atmosphere varies along with them.

But one thing always strikes me though. No matter what is going on, or who is preaching, there are always a load of people in the crowd with one hand in the air, eyes closed, gyrating around as if they are in some kind of trance.

What is meant to be going on with these guys? No disrespect to anyone, but it looks a bit false to me. As if they are trying to convince themselves that they are in a state of rapture or something.

ChocolateSauce

The human mind is very suggestible. While there are doubtless some who are faking it, I think there are more who are not. I don't doubt their sincerity, I think they're just hallucinating.

Seaneh

They are praying.

bakkiesbotha

Seaneh wrote: »

They are praying.

I bet they don't pray like that before going to bed at night.

They are definitely doing it for theatrical purposes. I was going to ask in my original post if they were shills, or the Christian equivalent of cheerleaders, but didn't want to sound disrespectful.

Seaneh

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

I bet they don't pray like that before going to bed at night.

They are definitely doing it for theatrical purposes. I was going to ask in my original post if they were shills, or the Christian equivalent of cheerleaders, but didn't want to sound disrespectful.

You asked what they were doing, I answered.

Some people clap, some people dance, some people jump around, some people close their eyes and pray, a LOT of people lift their hands to the lord.

It's all perfectly normal during a praise and worship session in a Christian church.

They don't do this during a normal service as they would be listening to the Pastor, they only do this while a worship music is playing.

bakkiesbotha

Seaneh wrote: »

You asked what they were doing, I answered.

Some people clap, some people dance, some people jump around, some people close their eyes and pray, a LOT of people lift their hands to the lord.

It's all perfectly normal during a praise and worship session in a Christian church.

They don't do this during a normal service as they would be listening to the Pastor, they only do this while a worship music is playing.

Ok, gotcha.

So, like the way some people go to a metal concert and thrash around in the mosh pit, others try to imitate John Travolta in a nightclub, others dance all through the night at a rave, certain Christians respond in this way to the feeling that permeates the revival tent.

It just doesn't look very genuine, though.

Take the metal concert, the cheesy nightclub and the rave. One quick look at the people there will tell you that they are 100% into what they are doing. I just don't get that feeling when I look at the Christians praying in this way.

Zombrex

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

But one thing always strikes me though. No matter what is going on, or who is preaching, there are always a load of people in the crowd with one hand in the air, eyes closed, gyrating around as if they are in some kind of trance.

What is meant to be going on with these guys? No disrespect to anyone, but it looks a bit false to me. As if they are trying to convince themselves that they are in a state of rapture or something.

They are in a state of rapture. It is called the euphoria of crowds (or something like that, if I remember correctly).

Look at Obama's campaign trail gatherings, people blubbering their eyes out in happiness and mass singing and chanting. And that isn't even religious.

So no, they aren't faking it nor is it false. They are genuinely in a state of euphoria.

bakkiesbotha

That's an interesting point.

So, they genuinely feel this euphoria, but it is due to a phenomenon that is unrelated to religion entirely.

That explains why it doesn't seem convincing when they try to tie it in with God.

So they are trying to fool themselves and not really succeeding, exactly how it looks.

prinz

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

So they are trying to fool themselves and not really succeeding, exactly how it looks.

In what regard do you consider them to be trying to fool themselves? How exactly, and to what end? Perhaps they are just as 'into' what they are doing as someone at a rock concert, or in a niteclub as per your examples.. are they also fooling themselves? Perhaps they are just enjoying the moment. Maybe you should concentrate on yurself and why you see something as false..... instead of using your own findings to tarnish others.

Zombrex

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

That's an interesting point.

So, they genuinely feel this euphoria, but it is due to a phenomenon that is unrelated to religion entirely.

Well, depends on what you mean by unrelated to religion. They are having this experience because they are in a large religious gathering, with all that entails, the singing, the shared bonding, the happiness etc.

If you mean they are having this experience without there necessarily being a supernatural cause then that is likely, given that similar experiences are had by people in other religions and in non-religious events.

You can't say that this is definitely not due to God though. One of the handy features of being an omnipotent deity is that he is invisible to testing, so if they were having this experience due to God you wouldn't be able to tell either way.

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

That explains why it doesn't seem convincing when they try to tie it in with God.

Well there is certainly nothing going on here that cannot be explained naturally, but that doesn't mean God isn't doing anything. Ultimately unless one of them starts floating around the room, its going to look the same either way.

If any of them think that the state they are in could only be caused by God then they are fooling themselves, but I don't know if any of them actually think that. They may think that God is causing the state they are in but that is impossible to test so they can happily think that without anyone being able to say that he isn't, so I'm not sure you could say they are fooling themselves.

Seaneh

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

.

So they are trying to fool themselves and not really succeeding, exactly how it looks.

What a load of absolute tosh.

I have seen people praying in this was in groups as small as 4 and as large as a couple of thousand.

They are emotional because they are opening their heart to God and asking for his blessing and guidance in their lives.

To write it off as "trying to fool themselves" is extremely disrespectful and worthy of a caution from a moderator imo.

bakkiesbotha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Bentley

Guy above is the tattoo'ed pastor. I think a quick perusal of that article shows that at least one person in the room was pretending to have a religious experience.

Of course I can't prove whether or not God is involved in these things.

All I am saying is that it is obvious when someone is faking it. And these guys (the rapture guys) look like they are faking it.

So much so that my initial suspicion was that they had been paid to act this way for the benefit of the tv audience.

bakkiesbotha

Seaneh wrote: »

What a load of absolute tosh.

I have seen people praying in this was in groups as small as 4 and as large as a couple of thousand.

They are emotional because they are opening their heart to God and asking for his blessing and guidance in their lives.

To write it off as "trying to fool themselves" is extremely disrespectful and worthy of a caution from a moderator imo.

I am not trying to be blasphemous here, and apologise if I have hurt your feelings.

I have seen people in genuine states of abandon in many different situations. And I have seen people trying to portray this state of abandon, and doing a bad job of it.

So, just like you, I am drawing on my experience, and forming an opinion on something I see.

prinz

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Bentley
Guy above is the tattoo'ed pastor. I think a quick perusal of that article shows that at least one person in the room was pretending to have a religious experience...

How does it show that?

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

All I am saying is that it is obvious when someone is faking it. And these guys (the rapture guys) look like they are faking it..

Faking what? Is someone dancing at a concert faking the fact they are are enjoying the music? They are not pretending to be possessed.

Zombrex

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

Of course I can't prove whether or not God is involved in these things.

All I am saying is that it is obvious when someone is faking it. And these guys (the rapture guys) look like they are faking it.

Well I'm not sure you can say that without knowing what actually being touched by God looks like.

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

So much so that my initial suspicion was that they had been paid to act this way for the benefit of the tv audience.

I would find that unlikely, given how easy it is to actually get worked up into this state without the need for fraud.

bakkiesbotha

prinz wrote: »

How does it show that?

Because that guy is quite clearly a charlatan.

bakkiesbotha

Wicknight wrote: »

Well I'm not sure you can say that without knowing what actually being touched by God looks like.

I'm sure it doesn't look like the insipid experience being portrayed by these characters.

Zombrex

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

I'm sure it doesn't look like the insipid experience being portrayed by these characters.

Well perhaps not :P

Without seeing the specific tv program you are referring to it is hard to comment on specific examples.

Fanny Cradock

It seems clear that the OP isn't asking a question (the thread title suggests as much) and ignores any opinions contrary to their preconceptions.