'Soccer mom' thread closures

SectionF

Question from a soccer mom
Soccer moms

Hello,

I would like to raise what I feel are important issues concerning boards.ie posters' freedom of expression that have arisen in the conduct of the two threads linked above.

This involves two moderators, each having closed one of the threads. I have already PM'd the mods. Each has answered in respect of the thread that he has closed: neither, in my view, has adequately justified their actions, and the clear connection between the threads, and the moderation of the threads, has not been addressed by either. The tone of one of the responses received is ill-mannered and hostile: I am happy to post the correspondence here if the mods agree.

The content of the threads concerned is rather light, even silly, in nature. I believe, however, that the issues behind them are quite significant, in both sporting and general terms (parenting, consumerism and globalisation are some obvious themes) and I think that a read of the original thread would confirm that.

More relevant here, however, is that the issues arising from this episode of moderation are fundamental to freedom of speech (which I understand cannot be absolute) and the legitimacy of boards.ie's claim to provide a forum for public debate.

The first thread contains at least two unusual postings. It is started by a member who is posting a question on behalf of a self-styled 'soccer mom' (membership of the soccer forum being restricted). The soccer mom gets some helpful answers. She also comes in for some light joshing from people coming from a variety of perspectives: one poster sensibly suggested saying 'No' to a child who wanted yet another replica jersey; my comment was, 'I'm sayin' nowt.'

None of the contributions can be classified as hostile or abusive by any standard, and certainly not by those of the soccer forum. Anyone who is familiar with the forum will understand that it is a place for sometimes quite robust exchange of opinion, and long may that continue. It is about football, after all! In this thread, there is no profanity, racism, sexism, name-calling, or any discourse that reasonably could be termed abusive or offensive to anyone with the most delicate of sensibilities. The problem seems to be simply that the parent's apparent eagerness to buy her child expensive jerseys for any and all of the big name international clubs has been questioned.

The thread had died out until yesterday, when there is an extraordinary post by Xavi6, saying that the 'OP' (meaning the soccer mom) had requested that he post what comprises a series of ripostes (of reasonable quality) to the various jibes. The relevant responses are quoted below. Having made that post, with the comment, 'The OP asked me to post this on her behalf and that'll be the end of the thread,' Xavi6 then locks the thread. There is no means for anyone mentioned in the post to reply.

Subsequently, I started the 'Soccer moms' thread, with a post featuring a YouTube video. The video, a US commercial (hardly hard-core material) light-heartedly pokes fun at soccer moms. I thought it apposite because it echoed themes which had been mentioned by the boards.ie soccer mom in her proxy response, with references to Spanish language and car status. It is by no means offensive, on any level, and I could have selected from other videos in which the humour would have been far more cutting and disparaging.

While clearly referring indirectly to the discussion in the other thread, my post does not do so in a targeted way. It contains no link or reference to the other thread, and does not directly mention the proxy poster. It is a generic comment on soccer moms, a group of people who are an identified category within football and who frequently attract comment, some of it critical, in other media. I could post it again today, or a year from today, on this forum or any other (is there any reason why I should not post it in the parenting forum so that 'soccer mom' can respond?) and it would have its own validity. However, this thread was closed down almost immediately by The Reckless One, with the comment 'Nice try'.

Essentially, what has occurred here is that someone who is not a member of the forum has been allowed to make comments about others who are members of the forum, under the protection of a mod who has exceeded his remit. Another mod has closed down another thread specifically in order to protect the proxy poster.

I am not a boards.ie lawyer, but it seems to me that the mods have not acted within the rules in giving this individual exalted access to score points off posters, without having to engage with those people when they respond. No forum or Boards rules have been cited by the mods in granting her this privilege. Nor have any rules or reasons been given by mods to justify the closure of the threads. I was told by one that I was happy to dish out comments (I would have thought that applied to most active boards.ie members) but seek protection from non-soccer posters when I was on the receiving end. Of course, I am not seeking protection here from anyone. What I am seeking is a level pitch.

So, I am questioning why, arising from the closed access to the soccer forum and the irregular application of that rule, one poster arbitrarily has been given extraordinary immunity from open discussion, in which she is not obliged to participate if she so chooses, at the cost of banning perfectly innocuous commentary by others. If this can be done when talking about football and soccer moms in a quite frivolous thread, it can also apply when much more serious or contentious matters are under discussion, in soccer and elsewhere, and mods do not like what they are reading or viewing.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar: Have you tried saying no?
No I haven’t, why would I? I can afford to buy my children what they want so I will and I make no excuses for that fact!

Trilla: lol, get him a Carlow FC jersey instead!!
Perhaps if you read the original question you would’ve seen that I was looking for a Real Madrid jersey. However thank you for the intelligent, well thought out response!

elshambo: (I can’t be bothered to retype this drivel): Post #11
I am hoping to raise a perfectly normal kid. It’s my hope that by encouraging him in his sporting and musical pursuits that I will raise a child that doesn’t take drugs, drink excessively, hang around on street corners or God forbid spend their time clocking up thousands of posts on online forums attempting to be ridiculous and condescending.

geurrp the yard: Please stop calling yourself a soccer mom!
Why? Does it offend you? It doesn’t offend me. I will continue to call myself whatever I wish to be called, despite your attempt at humour. I am the typical Soccer Mom. I’m not in gainful employment, I drive a brand new 4 wheel drive, my children have all the new and up to date gear, and I take my child to see soccer matches when they want to go. I’ve taken them to Old Trafford and Wembly. More recently I took them to the Shamrock Rovers v Real Madrid match in Dublin. I’m a Soccer Mom, A Piano Mom, A Karate Mom and A Rugby Mom and I love being each and every one!

mars bar: If he’s a real United fan he wouldn’t be looking for a Real Madrid Jersey.
Before you attempt sarcasm please read the OP. “I’m a mother of a 9 year old soccer fan”

Section F: I’m sayin nowt.
What a pity you don’t practice what you preach and carry out this threat instead of paying lip service to it.

bUILDERtHEbOB: Have you tried telling him to support his local club?
Why, he already plays U-10’s for our local club. Is he not allowed to support other teams as well?

To each and every self appointed smart ars3 who tried to give me parenting advice can I please point out that there is a separate Parenting forum where parenting advice is solicited and welcomed. If you are not interested in visiting this forum can I please remind you of some advice I’m sure you received from your own parents at some point:

If you have nothing helpful to say try saying nothing at all.

WhiteWashMan

Sorry, I read that, but what exactly are you looking for?

SectionF

Fair question.

Specifically, I am looking for the re-opening of the original thread, to facilitate free discussion, and for clarity that proxy posting cannot be used to afford special status to individuals. I am also seeking to know on what basis the mod. decisions were made, as their PM responses do not provide any justification.

I am also seeking more tempered and professional mod. responses to PM queries, and transparent and less biased and arbitrary modding of the soccer forum, with clear rules cited for actions affecting posters, especially those (as in my case) who are likely to offer minority perspectives or perspectives that differ from those of individual mods.

WhiteWashMan

SectionF wrote: »

Fair question.

Specifically, I am looking for the re-opening of the original thread, to facilitate free discussion, and for clarity that proxy posting cannot be used to afford special status to individuals. I am also seeking to know on what basis the mod. decisions were made, as their PM responses do not provide any justification.

Jaysus, its not the legal system we are talking about.

From my view point, you are simply looking to have a 'last word' stab into the thread.

With regardsproxy posting, its up to the mods of a special access forum. There are no hard and fast rules. Much of what we do comes down to common sense.

To be honest, this is not a major issue, and demanding decision making processes and justifications, is not likely to get you anywhere. If the mods havent provided you with a satisfactory reply, then I will assume that the reply is just not what you wanted to hear.
Again, this sounds vaguely like a point scoring excersize.

Not everything that happens here will be to your liking, and you will not get the answer you want. you will just have to put up with it Im afraid.

There is no need to start a witch hunt just because the mods in a forum allowed someone to post something and then locked the thread. otherwise, we would be here all week. and I have to go to work...

SectionF wrote: »

I am also seeking more tempered and professional mod. responses to PM queries, and transparent and less biased and arbitrary modding of the soccer forum, with clear rules cited for actions affecting posters, especially those (as in my case) who are likely to offer minority perspectives or perspectives that differ from those of individual mods.

The mods are fine, and if you have views that are different from the mods, that's fine.
We will not be changing mods just to suit you though.
Sorry

There may be many charters and many rules, but the overlying rule is this
Dont be a dick.

Its a catch all rule that sums up the site. Common sense plays a large part in what mods do and dont do. And sometimes it means that people think they can demand justifications for things. Sometimes there are no justifications. You will just have to learn to live with it.
If its a blatant disregard for posters and is disturbing the forum, then I will take action, otherwise, you can consider the issue to closed.

SectionF

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

Jaysus, its not the legal system we are talking about.

From my view point, you are simply looking to have a 'last word' stab into the thread.

With regardsproxy posting, its up to the mods of a special access forum. There are no hard and fast rules. Much of what we do comes down to common sense.

To be honest, this is not a major issue, and demanding decision making processes and justifications, is not likely to get you anywhere. If the mods havent provided you with a satisfactory reply, then I will assume that the reply is just not what you wanted to hear.
Again, this sounds vaguely like a point scoring excersize.

Not everything that happens here will be to your liking, and you will not get the answer you want. you will just have to put up with it Im afraid.

There is no need to start a witch hunt just because the mods in a forum allowed someone to post something and then locked the thread. otherwise, we would be here all week. and I have to go to work...



The mods are fine, and if you have views that are different from the mods, that's fine.
We will not be changing mods just to suit you though.
Sorry

There may be many charters and many rules, but the overlying rule is this
Dont be a dick.

Its a catch all rule that sums up the site. Common sense plays a large part in what mods do and dont do. And sometimes it means that people think they can demand justifications for things. Sometimes there are no justifications. You will just have to learn to live with it.
If its a blatant disregard for posters and is disturbing the forum, then I will take action, otherwise, you can consider the issue to closed.

I'm sorry., but that is an astonishingly flippant response. It's not a matter of 'getting back' at anyone. It's a matter of free exchange. There is no abuse, no flaming, no trolling, no victimisation here, and yet the mods see fit to close the thread without explanation. That is not common sense: common sense would be to ask what is going on. That action, compounded by your decidedly facetious response, tells anyone with a brain in their head that boards.ie is actually a bit of a joke when it comes to real debate. 'Don't be a dick': how immature is that? Are you actually a senior mod speaking for boards.ie when you write that?

WhiteWashMan

SectionF wrote: »

I'm sorry., but that is an astonishingly flippant response. It's not a matter of 'getting back' at anyone. It's a matter of free exchange. There is no abuse, no flaming, no trolling, no victimisation here, and yet the mods see fit to close the thread without explanation. That is not common sense: common sense would be to ask what is going on. That action, compounded by your decidedly facetious response, tells anyone with a brain in their head that boards.ie is actually a bit of a joke when it comes to real debate. 'Don't be a dick': how immature is that? Are you actually a senior mod speaking for boards.ie when you write that?

Yes.

And the answer is the same.

SectionF

OK. I have a slightly clearer idea of what the guidelines/rules are, or aren't -- 'We make them up on a whim and do whatever the hell we want' -- and I'm still none the wiser as to why the Soccer Mom threads were locked.

There's been liberal use of petty, smartarse ripostes, several references to 'dick' and 'prat', a veiled threat of a ban, an accusation of dishonesty, and yet another peremptory thread locking. At this point, I suppose I can anticipate more name-calling, direct or indirect, seeing this or other threads locked or coolly ignored, or a ban -- whatever kneejerk that boards.ie feels will allow it avoid the issue. But I'm willing to be proved wrong on that.

I'm sorry if this is a pain in the ass, and a little time-consuming, but I do think there are some quite important principles in play, that actually have nothing to do with football or soccer moms, and which should be dealt with in an open and adult way.

To that end, I would like to request a serious discussion: if WWM can't engage on that plane, then perhaps another administrator would like do so. (I have had meaningful exchanges on previous occasions in the Help Desk which were conducted on the basis of mutual respect, even if there was not total agreement, and where the admin didn't appear to have a Groucho Marx complex).

Here is the last relevant response of WWM (written, oddly, in the rules thread which he then shut):

The thread was locked. there is no reason to re-open it, and going to lengths of trying to prove some sort of point does nothing for anyone here.

I gave you rather glib answers earlier because quite frankly, thats just the way I am.

I gave you a decision in the other thread.

The decision is final. you have opened up another thread in some way trying to question that decision, and I am not happy abouit that. This isnt a democracy as you seem to think it is, there is no freedom of speech, as you feel you should have. If you had been unfairly treated, then I would be happy to reign the mod in and deal with it. As it stands I see no dishonest behaviour, except the fact that you want to have a pop back at soccermom, but you cant.

I'm afraid I feel I still have a right (even if it seems to be argued that posters here have no rights) to question that decision, the reasons, or lack of reasons, given for it, the simply rude manner of the response, in spite of the rhetoric about 'etiquette' in the Guidelines, and the fundamental ethic of boards.ie. (Incidentally, I opened a new thread on the rules to help focus that discussion and this one).

As yet, neither of the soccer mods has seen fit to enter this discussion to provide a rational justification for their actions. Nor have they responded to my request to include our correspondence in this thread. (The latter is not critically important: WWM has pretty much duplicated the most significant of them in content and tone.)

You can try to reduce this to someone wanting to 'have a pop' or 'get back' at another poster. But response and counter-response is much more than having a pop: it is, of course, the essence of discussion and, surely, of a discussion forum. I fully agree that if the response is abusive, obscene, deliberately misleading, targets an individual, or is similarly invalid, then mods would be right to take action. But in this case the response comprises nothing more than a mildly humorous and perfectly relevant video clip making some compressed observations on soccer mom culture, observations which, I think, very many people can identify with. (As a 'soccer' dad, I know a little bit about this).

The soccer mods here have acted impulsively and irrationally. They are out of order, and they, WWM, and boards.ie, know it and at this point are simply digging their heels in, pretending this is a joke, and firing out any accusation that comes to hand.

So, I'm going to ask this of you. If boards.ie does not want to justify the actions in this case, then, rather, than rub anyone's nose in it and force a reversal of an action already taken, simply permit the posting of the quite ridiculously innocuous soccer mom video, and any other relevant videos, and any responses to it (I can take it) in a new, separate thread in the soccer forum, with no reference to the original proxy thread complained of. Hell, I'll even put it in the parenting forum, where soccer mom can have as many 'pops' back at me as she wants, and tell me all about her SUV.

In other words, quite simply, show that you are big enough to lift the gag.

WhiteWashMan

So, with your last line, you show really where your colours lie.

You really do want to just have a pop back at soccermom.

So you can say what you want about me, but it would appear that i am bang on the money.
Yet again.

The answers are still no.

There is still no freedom of speech here.
I have made a decision, and quite frankly, I am really bored of listening to you whinge.

You can put as many points across as you want.
You can make yourself sound as important as you want.

Simple fact is, nothing is changing.

Discussion ends here.

And let there be no mistake about this.

It is a final decision.

If you continue, then I will consider you to be blatently trolling, and I will ban you. You have been warned. Go, post, have fun. Stop wasting everyones time on stupid things.