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Another 'I want to get a PPL' thread...

  • 06-08-2009 10:43PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭


    Hi all...

    I've always been interested in flying, did a few lessons ( maybe 4/5 ) back in the early '90s in Weston and did an Intro flight about 2 years ago that I got as a present.

    Anyhow, I've decided it's time to get off my ass and look into getting a PPL. It's going to be a slow route for me ( due to money / time ) so it'll be more like 1-3 lessons a month ( money depending ) rather than going to the US etc.

    I live in Kildare, so Weston is probably the closest for me. However, I've been looking at SkyTrace and the NFC's websites, trying to get a sense of which to go with. One of the differences I saw ( and maybe it's not important ) is that the NFC uses Cessna 150s and 172s, while SkyTrace uses Robins and Pipers. So I'm wondering if it'd be better to have a PPL using say a Cessna 172, or using a Piper or Robin. Or is it all the same really?

    My basic plan right now is get some money together, do a couple of lessons and the medical ( just to make sure there's nothing wrong with me before I put more money into it ) and then do as many lessons as I can each month. Realistically though it's going to be probably 3 years before I'm near the PPL, and possibly longer ( once again depending on money and also on my skill level )!

    Anyhow, if anyone has any advice, particularly about which Flight School they might recommend, and if the type of plane offered by each School should be a deciding factor, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

    J.


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭pclancy


    Cessnas and Pipers are much the same inside really, some things like carb heat, throttle, mix and trim are in different positions but once you get your ppl you can easily get rated in each different type of aircraft that you want to hire. Checklists and walkarounds are much the same. The instrumentation and controls will be similar between all small types as regards what you need to know for PPL level. I find Piper Tomahawks a lot more roomy then Cessna 150s as i'm quite tall but theres not much between them as regards handling or performance.

    You'll notice the difference in power allright when you jump into a 17/82 or a Cherokee after only flying a 152 etc, its like getting into a sportscar!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,677 ✭✭✭ronnie3585


    jasonb wrote: »
    So I'm wondering if it'd be better to have a PPL using say a Cessna 172, or using a Piper or Robin. Or is it all the same really?

    I wouldn't say they're all the same. There is quite a difference between high wing/low wing in terms of visibility and landing technique. Personally, I prefer a 172 over a PA28 simply because I did all my PPL training in a Cessna. However, I'd prefer a Robin or a Cirrus over a Cessna - the Robin DR400 is especially nice to fly but it has oleo-pneumatic mains so it's isn't the best for students. The sprung steel undercarriage of the Cessnas can take a mighty hammering.

    Ultimately, it's a personal choice. If you get the chance, do a few hours in a high wing and a low wing and see which you prefer.

    If you do go for Cessnas I'd agree with what pclancy has said about the 150/152 being a tight fit if you're any way tall. I'm about 6'3 and there isn't much room in a 152. It's not uncomfortable, but there is oodles more space in a 172.

    You mentioned that you don't yet have your medical. I would advise you to get your medical ASAP. It will be a complete wast of your time and money if you do a few hours now and find that your medical stops you down the road.

    As a general piece of advice I would say get all the books you can get your hands on and devour them! It's a very expensive place to learn at 1,000ft. You can learn a hell of a lot on the ground which will give you more time in the air to concentrate on the things that have to be learned by feel alone.

    Good luck!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    pclancy wrote: »
    Cessnas and Pipers are much the same inside really, some things like carb heat, throttle, mix and trim are in different positions but once you get your ppl you can easily get rated in each different type of aircraft that you want to hire. Checklists and walkarounds are much the same. The instrumentation and controls will be similar between all small types as regards what you need to know for PPL level. I find Piper Tomahawks a lot more roomy then Cessna 150s as i'm quite tall but theres not much between them as regards handling or performance.

    You'll notice the difference in power allright when you jump into a 17/82 or a Cherokee after only flying a 152 etc, its like getting into a sportscar!

    It is first time I have heard a 172 or a cherokee compared to a sports car :D

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭jasonb


    Excellent replies, thanks! I'm actually 6'1", so maybe the Cessna 150 might be a bit small for me. I don't know if it makes any difference, but I also have rather large feet, so the bigger the plane the more chance I have of being comfortable.

    I guess my main question about there being a better type of plane was that I was worried about doing the PPL in an 'older' plane when maybe a newer more modern plane would be the way to go. I know that the NFC gives you a choice of the 150s or 170s ( the 170s being more expensive ) but I don't know which planes Skytrace use for lessons and whether you can pick which one you want, and what the price difference is. It's a long way down the road but what's involved in getting rated in different aircraft?

    Yep, I'll be looking at the medical after an hour or two. I don't want to spend €120 on the medical first in case I then try an hour and for some strange reason I'm not as hooked on it as I think I will be ( though to be fair I can't see that happening ). So I reckon doing maybe 2-3 hours and then my medical makes the most sense. And I'll be reading lots of books, I've done a lot of virtual flying too over the years and I want to get every advantage I can ( hence asking questions here even before I book a lesson! ).

    J.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 205 ✭✭wittymoniker


    jasonb wrote: »
    Excellent replies, thanks! I'm actually 6'1", so maybe the Cessna 150 might be a bit small for me. I don't know if it makes any difference, but I also have rather large feet, so the bigger the plane the more chance I have of being comfortable.



    i'm close to 6'4'' with size 13s and have hundreds of trouble free 150/2 hours, you'll be doing well to find a better training aircraft.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭pclancy


    Well sportscar like compared to their smaller tomahawak/150 siblings. When you're used to bumbling up to circuit height at 800ftpm a tomahawk, a cherokee feels like a sportscar :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18 fugs


    jasonb wrote: »
    It's a long way down the road but what's involved in getting rated in different aircraft?

    J.

    You're certainly making the right inroads to this particularly expensive waste of time. If only I hadn't done so years back, I might have a lot more money now ;)
    As the old joke goes: "You only need two things to fly; Airspeed and money."

    To answer the question you asked: There is not a lot involved in getting different type ratings for different types but that, I think, is not what you meant to ask. There are only a handful (13) of aircraft ratings (JAR-FCL1&2) from Single Engine Piston (Land) through Multi Engine Turboprop (Sea) and on through Multi Engine Turbo-Jet (Land).
    (LASORS Section F Page5)

    To answer the question I think you meant to ask: To get 'rated' on a PA28 after doing your licence on a C152 or DA40 or any other SEPL, is simply a matter of getting 'checked out' to show that you are safe to fly and that the owner (usually a flying club/school) is happy to let you take it. Generally, 30mins is quite adequate for this as it is not terribly difficult to spot the difference between someone who is rusty but competent, and someone who is simply not a safe pilot.
    The next step, which can still be, and usually is, within a certain Class (such as SEP), is differences training. This pertains to
    • Variable Pitch (VP) Propellers
    • Retractable Undercarriage
    • Turbo/Super-charged Engines
    • Cabin Pressurisation
    • Tail-Wheel
    and has come/may come to include the modern 'glass cockpits'.

    It is all getting a bit much, in my opinion, but as the other old truism goes: "flying is easy, it is just terribly unforgiving of mistakes."

    I hope this informs a little and doesn't condescend to anyone's intelligence, I tend to go a little overboard on explaination as I remember only too well how bewildering it was when I started and how blasted difficult it was to find where to look for the right information.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭jasonb


    Thanks for that reply, it makes a lot of sense actually and already shows how little I know ( e.g. the whole concept of 'rating' etc. ).

    You're right, what I meant was what would be involved in flying a Cessna 172 after doing my PPL in a Robin ( for example ) and you've answered that perfectly.

    I've heard some good things about Clubs v Schools ( especially in terms of price ) so I'm going to look into that a bit more. Realistically I won't have the time / money to start this for a couple of months, so that gives me time to drive people mad with questions instead!

    Thanks to everyone for their helpful replies, I'm already learning...

    J.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭jasonb


    I'll bump my own thread here!

    As I'm looking into Clubs versus Schools, I got to thinking about Tarmac airfields and Grass airfields. Is there any advantages / disadvantages to training for your PPL on either? For example, I'd imagine ( but I may be wrong ) that some grass airfields might be closed due to heavy rain whereas the tarmac ones would be open, therefore reducing potential flying time ( especially during the winter months ).

    Any thoughts? Thanks!

    J.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18 fugs


    jasonb wrote: »
    I'll bump my own thread here!

    As I'm looking into Clubs versus Schools, I got to thinking about Tarmac airfields and Grass airfields. Is there any advantages / disadvantages to training for your PPL on either? For example, I'd imagine ( but I may be wrong ) that some grass airfields might be closed due to heavy rain whereas the tarmac ones would be open, therefore reducing potential flying time ( especially during the winter months ).

    Any thoughts? Thanks!

    J.

    Good grass fields only get rained out in the very heaviest of downpours.
    I don't know myself about Birr, Abbeyshrule, Kilkenny et al. But any time I've visited any of the above after rain they were just fine. Quite possibly the opportunities for flying could be limited by poor surface conditions.
    Flying from grass is much easier. You just need a little discipline on the brakes so as not to go skidding down along and/or off the side of the runway if it's damp. It is quite unbelieveable just how much more forgiving a surface grass is for landings though.
    For that reason I'd recommend tarmac for the sake of getting used to making landings, not arrivals :)
    Another side to tarmac fields is that they're usually busier places and so you come to use your R/T a lot more and a lot more precisely than at a field where you are the only traffic all day.

    Just a few thoughts.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭jasonb


    Thanks once again Fugs, you've been very helpful to me here!

    Actually, after posting I'd thought of the RT side of it as well. I don't know if either issue ( slightly more chance of field being closed / slightly less practice with RT ) would be enough to counter-balance the savings with going with a club though, as there are big savings there! But it's good to at least be aware of what the differences might be. The easier to land issue would actually suit me in the shorter term, but in the longer term I'd want to get experience with tarmac landings too.

    Once I get to the Student Pilot level and I'm doing solos, I'm guessing there's nothing to stop me from doing some hours with a different school / club, just to get used to different conditions etc. I'd presume I'd have to do a couple of dual hours with the new school just so they're happy with me using their plane? I'm not saying I'd definitely do that, I'm just checking it's an option in case I feel like I'm missing out on some aspect ( like tarmac landings for example ).

    J.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18 fugs


    The hard surface landings are a good education, but if you can pull off smooth landings on grass then you can pull off good landings on tarmac. I did about 50h on tarmac on an unsprung type nine or ten years ago for the bulk of my flight training and it did teach me smooth landings. But I've been flying off grass most of the time since and don't have any problems when hitting the hard stuff (tarmac, not whiskey).

    I wouldn't worry about it, I think you are right to let the practical considerations inform your decision here. Plane/instructor availability and reliability are very important, unless you have unlimited reserves of time, which I doubt you do.

    Then there is the major obstacle of cost. A little difference in €/h can mean a very real saving over the course of the training. If you got €180 dropped to €150 you'd be saving in excess of €1500 by the end of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭jasonb


    Yep, cost is huge, and there's definitely a big saving to be made by going with a Club, even including Membership / Joining Fees. You're right, I don't have unlimited time, but I do have limited money, so I'd only be looking at about 3 flights a month anyhow, so hopefully Plane Availability shouldn't be too much of an issue. It'd be different if I was looking to fly every week etc.

    I know I'm a planner and part of me just wants to get into a plane, but this is a big undertaking and any mistakes I can avoid I will!

    J.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 706 ✭✭✭tracker-man


    jasonb wrote: »
    Yep, cost is huge, and there's definitely a big saving to be made by going with a Club, even including Membership / Joining Fees. You're right, I don't have unlimited time, but I do have limited money, so I'd only be looking at about 3 flights a month anyhow, so hopefully Plane Availability shouldn't be too much of an issue. It'd be different if I was looking to fly every week etc.

    I know I'm a planner and part of me just wants to get into a plane, but this is a big undertaking and any mistakes I can avoid I will!

    J.
    You are without doubt a planner!! But thats no harm... So i guess throwing in the issue of having runway lighting and atc opening times in the mix might help :/
    Where i fly we have tarmac runway and full lighting. Many club members take advantage of this and fly regularly at night.
    With regard to atc opening times they can be awkward where i fly. And its sometimes tough to work around them. Eg not opening till 11 or 12 on a sunday. Then closing for 40 mins or so at 3pm.
    This isn't a problem in places like birr etc ;)
    As said above the availability of aircraft and instructors is paramount!
    Interested in more than just the lessons? Clubs have loads of social events during the year, compared to that of schools where it can be strictly flying, pay and leave.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 139 ✭✭yaeger


    Clubs all the way dude !

    Either join one now, or train in a school and then join one with additional cost of familiarisation flights...

    As for Grass or tarmac or high wing v low wing aircraft, at the end of the day with your ppl you will proficient enough to tackle anything within reason, so in my opinion your decideing factors should be cost and location...club or school. Go for club and you will reduce cost and seriously increase the fun part of flying and really expereince general aviation flying in ireland.

    If a Dub

    Clubs within reach.... Leinsteraeroclub / Airport flying club / Dublin flyers / Flightwise
    Schools within reach... NFC / Skytrace

    No doubt others can add more and include prices and a/c types for you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18 fugs


    Well, who would've thunk it? The IAA has some useful area on their website
    Here's a list of registered training facilities in Ireland:
    http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=143&n=196

    As for the comments made by tracker and yeager, I couldn't agree more. I did my training at a field with a 5000' lighted runway, PAPIs, NDB and... no controller. Only a/g radio. It was an ideal training environment.

    I don't know if I've mentioned Kilkenny club as a possibility before, but I've heard some good things about them. I've never flown with them, but have always had a good reception whenever I've flown in there. I used to hear good things about Abbeyshrule and so I sent a friend of mine there for a sort of 'extended introductory'. Their reports back to me at this point are underwhelming. Could be the instructor just had an 'off day' or two.
    If I wanted to get a PPL(M) I'd certainly give them a shot before writing them off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭jasonb


    Once again, thanks for all your replies, you're very good to a Newbie...

    So basically cost / availability of aircraft and instructors are the most important factors for training, and other factors like aircraft type, airfield type, ATC etc. aren't as important. With that in mind, a club seems to be the way to go, the savings I'd make going with a club could easily pay for a few hours at a bigger airfield to get experience of tarmac / ATC etc. with money left over.

    I've contacted a few places via email and one club has been very helpful with their replies, so I'm gonna arrange an assessment flight with them so they can suss me out and I can suss them out! All going well I'll go with them, if it doesn't work out for some reason I will have at least logged some time in the air.

    Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and advice, I'm sure I'll think of more questions!

    J.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18 fugs


    jasonb wrote: »

    Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and advice, I'm sure I'll think of more questions!

    J.

    I'm sure I speak for more than just myself when I say that it'll be great to hear how things progress.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭jasonb


    Well, I just thought I'd give a little update, as I'm buzzing from today's lesson.

    I did my 4th hour today, after 2 Intro flights with two different schools I chose one and have done two 'official' lessons so far. Had a great lesson today, did slow flight with and without flaps and a couple of stalls. I got lucky with the weather ( before it turned bad ) and it all went great, I just seemed to get what the instructor was saying and the aircraft did just what I wanted it to!

    So I'm buzzing now, and counting the days 'til my next lesson ( I hope to do one every two weeks ). The next lesson is more Stalls and I can't wait. Just wish I could fly more frequently! :)

    J.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18 fugs


    That's fantastic! Congratulations on a good start.
    You know, the sensation of stalling causes unsavoury reactions in a lot (I think it might be as much as a few percent) of pilots, so you should be encouraged by this.
    I hope you have fun with spin training, if you can get your instructor to do more than just incipient spins with you. If I'm not mistaken there is no longer a requirement to do fully developed spins for ppl.
    Anyway, congrats again and I hope you're able to maintain the regularity with it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    fugs wrote: »
    That's fantastic! Congratulations on a good start.
    You know, the sensation of stalling causes unsavoury reactions in a lot (I think it might be as much as a few percent) of pilots, so you should be encouraged by this.
    I hope you have fun with spin training, if you can get your instructor to do more than just incipient spins with you. If I'm not mistaken there is no longer a requirement to do fully developed spins for ppl.
    Anyway, congrats again and I hope you're able to maintain the regularity with it.

    thats one of the best parts its like being on the magic carpet that they had in funderland years ago.
    also the steep turns is good fun


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭pclancy


    I was expecting a stall to feel pretty scarey but there's very little feeling of neg g in a pa-38 :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 987 ✭✭✭diverdriver


    There shouldn't really be much or any negative g with a stall, unless it's particularly accelerated. It's just a slight nose drop in the average light trainer. Stalling is a straightforward exercise and shouldn't be scary to the student.

    In relation to stalls and spins, when I was training to be an Instructor, it was emphasised that you should avoid building up stalls as a big dramatic dangerous exercise. That scares students who are coming across stuff like that for the first time. Apparently more than a few students walk away after stalls or when introduced to forced landings. Don't even mention spins. The idea is to build confidence in the early stages of training so when the more interesting stuff comes along it won't scare them off.

    Also we were told not to shout or get annoyed at PPL students when they try to kill you. It puts them off and destroys confidence. On the other hand those going for higher ratings are fair game short of hitting them:P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭jasonb


    also the steep turns is good fun

    Couldn't agree more. I did a couple of 60 degree turns and then the instructor did some 90 degree turns just to show me. Great fun!

    J.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 987 ✭✭✭diverdriver


    I sincerely hope not. A 90 degree turn would produce 4 - 6 g and could exceed the limits of the aircraft not to mention induce a stall, spin.:eek: Check your books . I suspect it was a simple transitory steep bank without a turn. They're easy enough to do but if you attempt to turn while banked at 90 degrees you'll rip the wings off or stall out in most light trainers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭pclancy


    Its hard not imagine a stall to feel like a sudden drop off a cliff though. I had read so much about them and watched videos beforehand that I had built up a serious expectation that it was going to scare me.

    I do have a constant worry in my head that the aircraft i'm flying is 25 years old and has been stalled and spun many, many times before. I guess thats why keeping within the limits of what its certified to do means it should never have been exposed to stresses beyond what's safe. Just have to trust that its maintenance checks have been done properly.

    Was talking to a aerobatic pilot friend the other day who mentioned the aerobat that he'd done his rating in having constant problems with the door flying open mid bank or the glovebox emptying its contents on his face :) It had been crashed and rebuilt several times so wasnt the best in any way. I must try find a photo of it...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭jasonb


    Just thought I'd do another little update on my thread...

    Lesson 6 today and after going over a couple of slow flights / stalls we came back in to Weston and did a couple of circuits, my first!

    I was pretty nervous I have to say, and the first stop and go turned into a go around as I wasn't quite lined up right. The next one I did better but not a lot better and the final one was a full stop landing, lined up better but the landing was a little hard.

    There seems to be a lot to keep an eye on and remember compared to just going out west and doing one thing after the other. I was trying very hard to get used to judging things from looking outside, not at the instruments, as I need to get used to that. I also really need to work on Rudder more and Ailerons less!

    Anyhow, the next one's just before Christmas and it'll be Circuits only ( as I imagine the next several hours will be ) so hopefully I'll improve with practice. Any tips gratefully accepted!

    J.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 139 ✭✭yaeger


    I guess just know whats to be covered for next lesson and be prepared and then on the day............Simple really ! RELAX and enjoy it and you will learn lots more... all the best.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 298 ✭✭brophya2007


    jasonb wrote: »
    Just thought I'd do another little update on my thread...

    Lesson 6 today and after going over a couple of slow flights / stalls we came back in to Weston and did a couple of circuits, my first!

    I was pretty nervous I have to say, and the first stop and go turned into a go around as I wasn't quite lined up right. The next one I did better but not a lot better and the final one was a full stop landing, lined up better but the landing was a little hard.

    There seems to be a lot to keep an eye on and remember compared to just going out west and doing one thing after the other. I was trying very hard to get used to judging things from looking outside, not at the instruments, as I need to get used to that. I also really need to work on Rudder more and Ailerons less!

    Anyhow, the next one's just before Christmas and it'll be Circuits only ( as I imagine the next several hours will be ) so hopefully I'll improve with practice. Any tips gratefully accepted!

    J.

    Hi Jasonb,

    Where are you doing these lessons?

    A


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭jasonb


    You're right Yaeger, it's about being prepared and relaxing. I'll do circuits on the Flight Sim, learn my checklists off by heart and see how I get on.

    Brophya2007, I'm doing them in Weston...

    J.


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