First Time Flying Lessons

liberal

Hi

does anyone know if i could do a deal with some dude in cork to give me 5 lessons for a knock down price?

highlydebased

liberal wrote: »

Hi

does anyone know if i could do a deal with some dude in cork to give me 5 lessons for a knock down price?

Correct me if im wrong, but you will need to do the lessons with an instructor for the hours to count as "instruction" - not just any aul person with an aircraft

(not too sure if im correct on this though)

diverdriver

That's a very strange request. Five lessons? Why not six?

tracker-man

Strange question indeed,
Remember that by law a PPL holder cannot accept money from passengers for flying. So if you intended to just arrange some flying time with a Private Pilot in Cork and pay him for it, it would be illegal...

fugs

While it is indeed illegal for a private pilot to be paid for flight instruction, it is perfectly legal to 'cost share' the flight on the basis of fuel used.
The traditional route in this country used to be (before the advent here of 'proper' commercial flight schools like Weston, Atlantic Flight Training, etc.) that an instructor trained people on normal 'Private Category' aeroplanes, so long as they were not recieving pay for their services, and that the plane was owned by a club. This removed a solid quarter or more of the cost of flight training and if the instructor was ever in the pub, they wouldn't be buying their own drinks. The distinction with the plane is that Private Category and Public Category refer, basically, to standards of maintainance. The amounts of paperwork and detail of inspections, along with the qualifications necessary to perform certain maintainance-related tasks can be quite different between the two categories. Public Category is most basically defined as flying for hire or reward. Commercial flying from being paid to instruct on a C152 up to an airline pilot.
I found the relevant section in the:
LASORS
(LICENSING, ADMINISTRATION and STANDARDISATION
OPERATING REQUIREMENTS and SAFETY)

Remuneration
In order to receive payment for flight instruction, an
instructor must hold a valid professional pilots licence and
valid JAR-FCL Class 1 Medical Certificate.
Instructors who hold valid private pilot licences and valid
JAR-FCL Class 2 Medical Certificate are entitled to
instruct but cannot receive payment for this service

Sorry for the super-long post. I know it's a little off-topic.
Back on-topic, I doubt that Atlantic Flight Training will offer much of a reduction, but if you know a competent Private Pilot who's happy to cost-share, that's the best way to get started on a budget.

tracker-man

fugs wrote: »

While it is indeed illegal for a private pilot to be paid for flight instruction, it is perfectly legal to 'cost share' the flight on the basis of fuel used.
The traditional route in this country used to be (before the advent here of 'proper' commercial flight schools like Weston, Atlantic Flight Training, etc.) that an instructor trained people on normal 'Private Category' aeroplanes, so long as they were not recieving pay for their services, and that the plane was owned by a club. This removed a solid quarter or more of the cost of flight training and if the instructor was ever in the pub, they wouldn't be buying their own drinks. The distinction with the plane is that Private Category and Public Category refer, basically, to standards of maintainance. The amounts of paperwork and detail of inspections, along with the qualifications necessary to perform certain maintainance-related tasks can be quite different between the two categories. Public Category is most basically defined as flying for hire or reward. Commercial flying from being paid to instruct on a C152 up to an airline pilot.
I found the relevant section in the:
LASORS
(LICENSING, ADMINISTRATION and STANDARDISATION
OPERATING REQUIREMENTS and SAFETY)

Remuneration
In order to receive payment for flight instruction, an
instructor must hold a valid professional pilots licence and
valid JAR-FCL Class 1 Medical Certificate.
Instructors who hold valid private pilot licences and valid
JAR-FCL Class 2 Medical Certificate are entitled to
instruct but cannot receive payment for this service

Sorry for the super-long post. I know it's a little off-topic.
Back on-topic, I doubt that Atlantic Flight Training will offer much of a reduction, but if you know a competent Private Pilot who's happy to cost-share, that's the best way to get started on a budget.

Firstly fugs, welcome to the forums and congrats on a very informative first post!
Thanks for that info. As a student pilot I've thought about cost sharing and wondering when I get my PPL, will it be possible to share the cost of a flight with friends for flying them to the Aran Islands on a day trip for example? With no profit obviously?
Anywhere I've seen this question asked there doesn't seem to be a clear cut answer But you sound like you know what you're talking about! In the above scenario would I be at risk of getting in trouble?

fugs

Thanks for the welcome to the forum, and boards in general.
Been a member a while, and I have mainly just used adverts without straying into the wide world of boards forums. I've decided to make the time to get involved with boards as adverts is an offshoot and it has been good to me
So, back to the burning issue, flying!
When you have your licence, it is absolutely not a problem to cost-share with your friends.
It is almost actively encouraged in some countries, in fact.
The UK CAA have traditionally been of the opinion that when cost-sharing, it is appropriate that the pilot have their lunch paid for by those sharing the cost.
As for visiting the Aran islands, go for it! It's such a great time to pop over and wander around, practice the cúpla focal, have a cupán tae and take off into the sunset.
Don't over-do the into the sunset thing, unless Reyjakvík is your next stop.
Also, if and when you do come to visit there, make sure you read the aerodrome information plates thoroughly. There is only one Island Frequency and it is the responsibility of the pilots withing that area to make their intentions clear and to provide their own de-conflicting services. It is quite a popular destination of a sunny weekend afternoon and there are some RV flyers around who will startle you if your lookout is not what it should be. Not that their piloting or airmanship is being brought into question in any way, just that their ~200kt cruise will really get the jump on you if you're flying something more traditional. Espescially if they're coming out of the setting sun at you...
Again, at the danger of being repetitive. It is entirely appropriate and generally expected that if you take friends for a recreational flight they will pay their share of the fuel cost for that flight. Assuming, of course, all the usual qualifying remarks such as 'operating within the conditions set down in your licence and ratings', etc.
There is another interesting side to Irish light aviation, and that is farm-strip flying.
There is a truly phenomenal number of private strips about the place and visiting them is a great way of really getting into the inter-personal side of things. But beware the politics of Irish flying clubs. Every country has flying clubs and where the club is not a school owned by an individual, there seems to be much politics involved.
Phew! Another long-winded post!

diverdriver

Phew! Another long-winded post!

Enough Fugs, I'm the resident long winded post person here. Don't try and outpost me. I can drone on and on and on and on......................

pclancy

Without cost sharing a lot of people probably wouldnt fly as much. There are often trips at my club to other airfields or somebody might appear and say they're taking a certain plane down to the south island or wherever and ask does anyone want to come and share the cost. Unless your going towards flying as a job, thats the whole fun of having a ppl.

When i'm back in Ireland i'd love to fly out to Inis Mor. Is it a public aerodrome with charts etc or do Aer Aran own it?

fugs

I just hope I don't end up unwittingly trying to turn each successive post into my Magnum Opus
Inis Óirr, Inis Meán and Inis Mór are all public airfields with no PPR.

Of course giving them a call never hurts, regardless of where you're going. It's worth knowing/bearing in mind that Aer Arann Commuter and Aer Arann Island Service function as two seperate entities. If you want up-to-the-minute information about the Islands, a quick call to the guys on the mainland (Connemara Regional Airport - EICA) should give you all the info you need. They, like the three islands, are an A/G radio station on 123.00. Again, and I know this is obvious, but... Before even considering going somewhere like that, find the plates, find the phone number, give them a call and make sure you won't be getting up anyone's noses by dropping in. Just for information, the runways on the islands are ~520m and Connemara itself is ~620m.

All you really need is the frequency and to know where to park. It is very important to be behind the yellow threshold marker when you park there. Otherwise they will tell you that you are, technically, a runway obstruction and may be leaving them open to legal nasties if they allow operations to continue under those circumstances.

My favourite is Inis Óirr (EIIR), not least of all because there is something other than water or stone walls in the straight-ahead position if you have an engine failure at 20ft.

If you do go to EIIR, there's a great guest-house straight up from the airfield. Just go out the gate and head south up the raod in front of you. You'll get tea aplenty, home-made bread and a warm welcome. The last day I was there, a year ago now, I only had a tenner on me and I had to force the proprietor to take it as he said it was way too much for some bread and tea, but I was adamant that I couldn't give him nothing for his hospitality. My passenger and I had been 3 hours aloft on a light breakfast so we ate a full, large, loaf of bread, 1/2 a currant loaf and a big pot of tea.

I did it again.
Blast it annyway, I should just write a book.
Oh no, there are already two! One from Pooleys, even.

edit
(I can't believe it. It's even longer than the last one! That must be a lot of pent-up flying needing a release.)
(Just did a word count, it's not longer actually, just better punctuated.)

pclancy

There's no rules to lengths of posts here mate Good info there thanks for sharing. I must visit when im back it sounds deadly!

fugs

pclancy wrote: »

There's no rules to lengths of posts here mate Good info there thanks for sharing. I must visit when im back it sounds deadly!

Oh, indeed you must.
Where are you at the moment? Are you doing any flying there? Eating your greens? Brushing your teeth etc?

-
Oh right, Wellington.
Not at my brightest this evening

fugs

pclancy, I had a look at your links and on the rates page it comes to €85/hr for an ArcherII.

€85/hr for an ArcherII?!? That is for nothing!
I am both wildly impressed and massively jealous.

I hope you're racking up the hours out there (if indeed you are near Wellington Aero Club), prices are more than double that back here.

pclancy

I know Cheap as chips. Though the wages here arne great its still the cheapest place I've seen to fly. I'm doing my aircraft technical knowladge ground course at the moment and am up to about 10 hours. Wont ever get to go solo as my left eye isnt good enoyugh to pass the class two but i'm still doing as much flying as i can for fun. Theres a great sense of fun down there with lots of people hiring aircraft to go away for trips and competitions and a lively bar with $3 beers a great view of the runway Did you see they've bought a Nanchang which can be hired as well? Awesome classic fighter.

I live about 10 mins from the aero club which is on the Western Apron so we get to mix in with all the commercial traffic and gain pleny of experience. Wake Air Turbulance can be fun at times though

fugs

pclancy wrote: »

Did you see they've bought a Nanchang which can be hired as well? Awesome classic fighter.

I saw that alright, it's a funny old beast, the CJ-6.
It's based on the Yak18, not the -52, which it looks quite like.
And the engine is 285hp as against the 360hp in the Yak52, another interesting anomaly.

I got my first intro to aeros in one over in Wisconsin, back in '95. The owner only had 15/20hrs on it, so I was rear-seating it. Didn't do any aeros myself, but I did get to do most of the general handling airwork and it was just lovely. Big and solid and reassuring.

I'm very sorry to hear about your eye. I guess you've looked into the various options? Laser surgery and/or corrective lenses?

pclancy

Yeah surgery would be an option but im not too bothered just yet. I think 6/36 which is what my left eye is, is out of range for surgery but i'll look into it again someday when the technologies a bit more mature.

jasonb

fugs wrote: »

My favourite is Inis Óirr (EIIR), not least of all because there is something other than water or stone walls in the straight-ahead position if you have an engine failure at 20ft.

This is actually one of the reasons my interest in flying has been piqued again and why I'm looking at schools / clubs at the moment. My wife and I both love Inis Oirr and we've been there a few times, including last week. And seeing planes coming in and land there made me realise how cool it would be to be able to fly and visit Inis Oirr. Even better was that the ferries were cancelled on the day we were meant to come back so we ended up flying back to the mainland, I was one seat behind the pilot watching all the instruments and thinking 'I've got to learn how to do this'!

If I ever get my PPL I'm saving some money and arranging to fly my wife to Inis Oirr...

J.

fugs

jasonb wrote: »

If I ever get my PPL I'm saving some money and arranging to fly my wife to Inis Oirr...

J.

If you can't wait, just get stuck into the books and training and make it a part of your cross country (xc) instruction. You have to do a big, bad navigation excercise (navex) anyway as part of your training and this may as well be part of it.

I only have two pieces of strong advice with regards to training, which are:
1. Do the theory work on the ground. Read, re-read and examine yourself on the theory side of things before you ever hop into the plane. What you then proceed to do in terms of airwork and procedures then makes so much more sense.
2. Practice the hell out of your radiotelephony (R/T or RT), I think it is one of the biggest confidence detractors and, hence, demotivators associated with flying light aircraft.

It's worth bearing in mind that you can't do your actual licence Navex to Arann though, it has to be to a controlled field where the controller must sign for your flight. I can't remember if it goes on a form or in your logbook, seeing as you must carry your logbook for these flights, as evidence of authorisation by your instructor to perform said flight, then I guess they sign the remarks column for that flight.

I'm sorry, this is deplorable, but I am actually too lazy to go check my logbook right now.

jasonb

Thanks for the advice! I'm at the very early stage, haven't even bought a Log Book and I'm still trying to choose between the different schools / clubs out there. But I've started on the theory in a very simple way, I'm doing the Lessons section on Flight Sim X to get me used to the concepts etc.

Yep, I can imagine the RT stuff would be a bit tough, at the moment I'd be worried I'd say the wrong thing or not understand them etc. But I'll practice and learn everything I can before I get into a plane, which won't be until about October at the earliest I reckon...

J.

fugs

jasonb wrote: »

Thanks for the advice! I'm at the very early stage, haven't even bought a Log Book and I'm still trying to choose between the different schools / clubs out there. But I've started on the theory in a very simple way, I'm doing the Lessons section on Flight Sim X to get me used to the concepts etc.

Yep, I can imagine the RT stuff would be a bit tough, at the moment I'd be worried I'd say the wrong thing or not understand them etc. But I'll practice and learn everything I can before I get into a plane, which won't be until about October at the earliest I reckon...

J.

FSX is good fun and fairly good to mess about with, but it is pure Americanism and many standard operating procedures (SOP) are different here. Still, I think it's not a bad idea to go through those lessons. I wouldn't bother with the helicopter stuff at this stage, unless you have a really serious computer. The physics and graphics processing for rotary-wing flight is really heavy. There's also the issue of trying to learn 2 very different disciplines with much overlap at the same time. When a heli-wocker is in forward flight above, for argument's sake, translational lift speed, it behaves much like a fixed-wing aeroplane. Drop below that speed thought and you have a very confusing and different beast on your hands. The R/T book the CAA publish online for free is very good, and the paper copy is not expensive either. I read it casually from time to time, just to avoid getting too embarassingly rusty.
Find links here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=61535846#post61535846

jasonb

The way I see it, anything I can learn using something like FSX ( even just basic stuff like turning, ascending / descending etc. ) will help me in the future! I don't really plan to look at the Helicopter stuff at all. I messed with some Helicopter Sims when I was younger and have an idea of how complicated it all is, but in RL I'll just be looking a fixed-wing!

Thanks for that link, it gives me something to help me avoid work this afternoon!

J.

P.S. Sorry for hi-jacking this thread, I just had to post when I saw the Inis Oirr comment!

pclancy

I'm sure a lot of commercial pilots will laugh but on my second ppl lesson my instructor commented that "its nice to go up with someone who can fly for a change". Second Lesson. There's no doubt its a great tool for teaching and practicisng handling techniques, instrumentation and procedures and will give you a nice heads up for your first lesson. Most people sit into a plane with no idea of even where to begin for their first lesson, you'll be well prepared if you know your basic instruments even.

Its no subsitute for the feeling and insinct of real flying, and the straight ahead view of FSX just doesnt give enough sensory information so FSX pilots always end up with bad habits of not constantly scanning the sky and using the real horizon instead of the planes own attitude indicator but it will give you a good overview of things and it certainly helped me advance very quickly though the basic real ppl stuff.

bogs

No instructor is allowed to make a bargain at any time because he/she are normally employees of the club.Cork as you were referring to has all employed instructors.

fugs

bogs wrote: »

No instructor is allowed to make a bargain at any time because he/she are normally employees of the club.Cork as you were referring to has all employed instructors.

With respect,

It may be reasonably expected that in a commercial flight training school an instructor would not hold a position of executive authority such as would grant them permission to offer a discounted rate. This is very true.

It is also true that many flying schools offer block hourly rates which are better than individual hourly rates and may even offer a complete 'To PPL' package for a considerable saving over the combined cost of forty five hours of instruction.

It is neither a moot point nor a stupid question to ask whether or not there exists a cheaper rate for buying flight time in bulk, and any employee of a club or flying school should be able to inform a prospective customer as to whether or not such discounts are available at their facility.

jasonb

Just curious...

If I have a PPL, and it's €200 to rent a plane for an hour, and myself and a friend ( who doesn't have a PPL ) decide to go flying, and we pay €100 each to share the cost of the plane, is that ok, or is it looked at as me being paid? Thanks!

J.

fugs

jasonb wrote: »

Just curious...

If I have a PPL, and it's €200 to rent a plane for an hour, and myself and a friend ( who doesn't have a PPL ) decide to go flying, and we pay €100 each to share the cost of the plane, is that ok, or is it looked at as me being paid? Thanks!

J.

That should be fine.
I seem to remember it being emphasised that people who were sharing the cost with the pilot can only pay their share of the fuel cost for a flight. If it is a privately owned plane, your friends cannot say 'oh, here's an extra fiver towards the annual/insurance/go-faster stripes'. The decision to own a plane is the owner's and they must foot the non-hourly costs themselves.
I'll look it up now for the rented situation. Though I think it's fine for a cost-sharer to share their portion of the entire rental cost and not just the fuel. Perhaps it's different for a wet hire or dry hire.

jasonb

Thanks! To me, common sense says it should be ok, but common sense and the law are two different things...

J.