Euro equivalants to Jap cars

Atomic Pineapple

I was just wondering if people who would be more familiar with Euro cars would be able to highlight Euro cars that would offer the same power and reliability as a Japanese car for similar money.

For instance I'm looking at changing my car to something, RWD or AWD, powerful enough with minimum 250bhp, but only have around €10k to spend.

I am familiar with my Japanese car options and have been looking at Rx7's, Lancer evolutions, modified 200sx S14a's and Skylines.

However I am not familiar with what Euro cars would fit my needs so haven't really a clue what to look at?

Any Euro heads got any opinions on what euro car would suit my needs and be in budget?

unkel

BMW M3 would be the obvious choice. Your money would get a very good E36 model. Get one from an enthusiast and have the car examined by an independent specialist before you buy

Drummerboy08

M3 sounds like the obvious one....

gears

Many Audi models would fit the bill provided they are Quatro models. If you wanted to keep the capacity small any model with the 1.8T engine could easily be tuned to give 250bhp, then theres an array of models with the 2.7 biturbo and of course the 4.2V8 with S4 or S6 models being with in budget.

Atomic Pineapple

unkel wrote: »

BMW M3 would be the obvious choice. Your money would get a very good E36 model. Get one from an enthusiast and have the car examined by an independent specialist before you buy

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

M3 sounds like the obvious one....

gears wrote: »

Many Audi models would fit the bill provided they are Quatro models. If you wanted to keep the capacity small any model with the 1.8T engine could easily be tuned to give 250bhp, then theres an array of models with the 2.7 biturbo and of course the 4.2V8 with S4 or S6 models being with in budget.

Apologies, I should have said with a max engine size of 2 litres!

Also 250bhp standard with potential for more would be ideal

bazz26

Audi TT Quattro,
Audi S3,
Seat Leon Cupra R,
VW Corrado G60.

would be the nearest thing, I'd imagine.

Drummerboy08

It wouldnt have the power output of 250bhp, but i dare say it needs it!

http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200924193089232




I know this is older, but it would be seriously quick, and a great piece of motoring history!
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200928194563114



Again, its older, and it would take alot of looking after, but it would be a very rare, quick car.
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200801191354865






These yokes can be tuned to give alot more power.
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200931194786747

Atomic Pineapple

The Corrado and Leon would be FWD wouldn't they?

The Audi TT Quattro doesn't float my boat.

The Elise is nice but I dont want a convertible.

And I'd like to stay away from older cars, it would have to be something that would be reliable enough to put up with daily driving

The S3 is the only one mentioned so far that sort of fits the bill but it doesn't really stand out as something that would interest me, a non convertible coupe would be more what I'm after or a stylish saloon type car.

Drummerboy08

You just cant beat the japs so!

JHMEG

draffodx wrote: »

Apologies, I should have said with a max engine size of 2 litres!

Also 250bhp standard with potential for more would be ideal

The small capacity/high output thing is really the realm of the Japanese, and owing to our cc-based tax system it has worked quite well here. The rest of Europe just goes for bigger lazier engines to increase power.

I'm not aware of any 2L euro car that puts out more than 250bhp from the factory.

The reliability thing is also arguably the realm of the Japanese, certainly in more mundane cars, although cars these days don't tend to go as badly wrong, as often, as they used to.

unkel

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

You just cant beat the japs so!

+1

The japs are very good at tuning tiny engines that rev high and are still reliable - and still have them breathing normally.

Atomic Pineapple

ok so then my only real euro option would be bite the tax bullet, pay the tax for a 3.2 and get an M3?

Would it be worth paying 1,566 a year for an M3 instead of 614 for say an Evo 5?

Snowie

you could always have a look at alteazas there rather nice. What about a merc cosworth a rarity but a really nice car. Id personally go for an E30 m3 they are mmmmmmmmm.

tossy

JHMEG wrote: »

I'm not aware of any 2L euro car that puts out more than 250bhp from the factory.
.

Off the top of my head the new S3,TTS and you could argue the new Leon Cupra as its only a remap away from the S3 sharing most engine components.Europe has been slow in catching up with high powered small engines.

bazz26

draffodx wrote: »

ok so then my only real euro option would be bite the tax bullet, pay the tax for a 3.2 and get an M3?

Would it be worth paying 1,566 a year for an M3 instead of 614 for say an Evo 5?

You need to look at the bigger picture though, motor tax is only one factor in the overall cost of ownership. While an Evo or Scooby might be cheaper to tax, fuel and servicing them isn't exactly cheap either.

Atomic Pineapple

bazz26 wrote: »

You need to look at the bigger picture though, motor tax is only one factor in the overall cost of ownership. While an Evo or Scooby might be cheaper to tax, fuel and servicing them isn't exactly cheap either.

but fueling and servicing an M3 isn't cheap either?

tossy

you will have to do your homework,you will be servicing the Evo more often than the M3,i would imagine the fuel bill would be pretty close,the tax is obviously different so its 6 of one half a dozen of the other....

bazz26

draffodx wrote: »

but fueling and servicing an M3 isn't cheap either?

What I am really trying to say is that none of these cars are cheap to run, motor tax is only one factor but imo shouldn't be the deciding one. Best thing to do is talk to someone who owned these cars like Cyrus who had a M3 and try and work out the maths before finally deciding.

cpoh1

You know what thinking about this you're not going to get any driving satisfaction going from an integra R to something like an S3, audi TT, even something like an S14. An rx7 is a super car but you really dont want one as a daily driver, same with a skyline, even an m3 will be expensive to run everyday.

Either go all out and get a smashing car like the rfx7/m3 etc. and accept the running costs or my advice would be to go for a nice fast runaround instead.

Go for a DC5, having had a dc2 in the past it really is a lovely step up and not half as soft as some dc2 lads would like to think. Its a super compromise between performance, fun and cheap enough to live with every week as a daily commuter.

Snowie

bazz26 wrote: »

You need to look at the bigger picture though, motor tax is only one factor in the overall cost of ownership. While an Evo or Scooby might be cheaper to tax, fuel and servicing them isn't exactly cheap either.

scoobys and petrol don't go they drink it plus out of 3 scoobys I know of all 3 of them have had the wonderful clunk happen....

Id get an evo over a scooby any day of the week.

B00MSTICK

Maybe get a middle of the road (performance wise) car before going the whole hog?

A good tubby MR2 will meet your 250bhp/RWD criteria for about half your budget and generally wouldn't need as much TLC as an Evo/M3.

If you get an M3 now you'll have nothing to progress to :P

Big Nasty

You want Euro not Jap

You want performance coupe

You want to be treated with respect not as a scroate in a rice rocket

Buy yourself an M3 and be done with it

Would rather be called a w**ker by jealous p**cks than a scroate by the majority of society and every cop on the road.

If the insurance is not much different I could well put up with the tax!

cpoh1

MCMLXXV wrote: »

You want Euro not Jap

You want performance coupe

You want to be treated with respect not as a scroate in a rice rocket

Buy yourself an M3 and be done with it

Would rather be called a w**ker by jealous p**cks than a scroate by the majority of society and every cop on the road.

If the insurance is not much different I could well put up with the tax!

That post is right up there with "he drives she dies" pathetic :rolleyes:

He's looking for a fun car, where it was built is irrelevant.

Gumbo

MCMLXXV wrote: »

You want Euro not Jap

You want performance coupe

You want to be treated with respect not as a scroate in a rice rocket

Buy yourself an M3 and be done with it

Would rather be called a w**ker by jealous p**cks than a scroate by the majority of society and every cop on the road.

If the insurance is not much different I could well put up with the tax!

why even bother being in a motoring forum with opinions like that :rolleyes:


S3 is a great car, i really like them, but going from an ITR wont feel like a big improovement although the turbo torque and the ease of remapping will soon put the smile back on your face!

i went from : 1997 ITR with full exhaust, induction and remap with 210bhp and 155 Ft/Ibs torque







to this :
1998 Evo 5 with full exhaust, induction, fuel pump, plugs and a few extra bits (about 350-360bhp)







best jump i ever did, the only regret i have in my life so far is selling that Evo

my mate has had 3 M3 evo's too, still has the third one now and while their quick, i just couldnt relate to it if that makes sense!

i think you should go evo 7, few of them popping up now around the 10k mark!

Big Nasty

cpoh1 wrote: »

That post is right up there with "he drives she dies" pathetic :rolleyes:

He's looking for a fun car, where it was built is irrelevant.

And the topic of the post is................?

Gumbo

MCMLXXV wrote: »

And the topic of the post is................?

lost on you.........

Big Nasty

kceire wrote: »

why even bother being in a motoring forum with opinions like that :rolleyes:

S3 is a great car, i really like them, but going from an ITR wont feel like a big improovement although the turbo torque and the ease of remapping will soon put the smile back on your face!

Because I don't like Jap performance cars or the stigma attached to them! Give me an S3 any day over an Evo, Scooby and especially an Integra!

If I was to go Jap put me in a Z31 300ZX!

That's my opinion, that's what I like!

Big Nasty

kceire wrote: »

lost on you.........

Au contraire!

The topic is Euro alternatives in case you hadn't noticed!

Gumbo

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Because I don't like Jap performance cars or the stigma attached to them! Give me an S3 any day over an Evo, Scooby and especially an Integra!

If I was to go Jap put me in a Z31 300ZX!

That's my opinion, that's what I like!

thats no problem, its the manner in which you come across, or indeed seem to have come accross, maybe its just lost on a text forum

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Au contraire!

The topic is Euro alternatives in case you hadn't noticed!

yes indeed, but you havent recommend any euro car, just that in your opinion scrotes drive jap cars.

Big Nasty

kceire wrote: »

thats no problem, its the manner in which you come across, or indeed seem to have come accross, maybe its just lost on a text forum

Most likely!

kceire wrote: »

yes indeed, but you havent recommend any euro car, just that in your opinion scrotes drive jap cars.

Have agreed with both the M3 and S3 suggestions!

kceire wrote: »

why even bother being in a motoring forum with opinions like that

Now that was a tad unnecessary or was it that the context was lost in the text forum?

Lord Nikon

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

It wouldnt have the power output of 250bhp, but i dare say it needs it!

http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200924193089232




I know this is older, but it would be seriously quick, and a great piece of motoring history!
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200928194563114



Again, its older, and it would take alot of looking after, but it would be a very rare, quick car.
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200801191354865






These yokes can be tuned to give alot more power.
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200931194786747

Yummy Audi

Gumbo

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Now that was a tad unnecessary or was it that the context was lost in the text forum?

well, not all jap car owners are scrotes so it works both ways im afraid.

anyway, sorry for draffing the thread off topic

Atomic Pineapple

Yeh way off topic, I'm not a scroate and I have no preference on a car just by the virtue of what stereotypes the general public attach to that car.

cpoh1

Having driven a mk1 TT andmk1 s3 (which are in the draffodx's price range) the guy will be seriously dissappointed with the handling and fun factor aspect in these cars. Fwd biased (not that thats bad) with serious under steer, they are fast and when mapped even faster but there's just no grin factor with them.

An m3 would be a lovely car but unless the e46 drops another 5k in price then he wont get one on his budget. Id give the e36 a miss, not because its not a good car but its pushing on now and will need money thrown at it to keep it in ti top shape.

If i had a daily driver as a backup id buy an rx7, otherwise get another high revving n/a engined car as your whip. I couldnt look past a dc5 or even jdm ep3 whatever about the stigma attached whatever that is :rolleyes:

JHMEG

tossy wrote: »

Off the top of my head the new S3,TTS and you could argue the new Leon Cupra

Ah shur I know but but he's looking at under €10k.

JHMEG

cpoh1 wrote: »

Having driven a mk1 TT andmk1 s3 (which are in the draffodx's price range) the guy will be seriously dissappointed with the handling and fun factor aspect in these cars.

I would have to agree - you'd be going from serious raw fun with sensory overload to silicone damped handles etc. If that's what you're after then go for it.

tossy

JHMEG wrote: »

Ah shur I know but but he's looking at under €10k.

I wasn't suggesting them just pointing out 2.0 Euro cars with over 250bhp

pablosd

Saab 9-3 Viggen or Aero spec
Saab 9-5 Aero Hot
Audi S4 2.7Biturbo up to 01 spec, S4 4.2 01 on spec
BMW M3
VW Passat W8
Golf R32

these are mine quick suggestion, although i'd still stick 2 a jap car i think, but saab 9-3 viggen would be my favourite

Barry walsh

Why not cheat and get a Jap Euro car like your UKDM Integra Like a UKDM Accord type R for instance 212 bhp??

mickdw

cpoh1 wrote: »

Having driven a mk1 TT andmk1 s3 (which are in the draffodx's price range) the guy will be seriously dissappointed with the handling and fun factor aspect in these cars. Fwd biased (not that thats bad) with serious under steer, they are fast and when mapped even faster but there's just no grin factor with them.

I wouldnt agree that the TT is seriously understeery. I had one for 2 years. ok, flat through a bend, it will be inclined to push wide but on a typical country road it can be make handle any which way you like depending on how you load it up for a corner and the rear end can be easily slid out and controlled also even with the quattro

JHMEG wrote: »

you'd be going from serious raw fun with sensory overload to silicone damped handles etc. If that's what you're after then go for it.

There is alot to be said for silicone damped handles & the quality that comes with that. I cannot sit in a jap car. Tacky tacky. Honda accord and perhaps GS lexus are acceptable. None of the boy racer stuff is.

Gumbo

Barry walsh wrote: »

Why not cheat and get a Jap Euro car like your UKDM Integra Like a UKDM Accord type R for instance 212 bhp??

good option although the Integra is quicker that the Accord, so it would feel like more of a side step then a step up imo.

Skoda Octavia VRS......2.0T, 200bhp and easily mapped to 250bhp......dont see many around the 10k mark yet, but maybe in a few months, late 06, early 07 ones may start appearing.

Cuddlesworth

kceire wrote: »

Skoda Octavia VRS......2.0T, 200bhp and easily mapped to 250bhp......dont see many around the 10k mark yet, but maybe in a few months, late 06, early 07 ones may start appearing.

Still front wheel drive. Great car though.

cpoh1

mickdw wrote: »

I wouldnt agree that the TT is seriously understeery. I had one for 2 years. ok, flat through a bend, it will be inclined to push wide but on a typical country road it can be make handle any which way you like depending on how you load it up for a corner and the rear end can be easily slid out and controlled also even with the quattro



There is alot to be said for silicone damped handles & the quality that comes with that. I cannot sit in a jap car. Tacky tacky. Honda accord and perhaps GS lexus are acceptable. None of the boy racer stuff is.

Coming from my dc2 at the time and having since bought a dc5 and skyline I can honestly say that the TT S3 steering were both numb as a popsicle coming from these cars. You get very little feedback and although the car fast in a straight line I got no pleasure from taking it through bends. I especially found it difficult to powerslide through bends, something most 4wd cars with ower have no problem doing. I had considered the TT as my daily drive before picking up the DC5 after being disappointed by the fun factor.

Its gas you mention the "tacky" stigma associated with jap cars, when my work mate who owns the TT ive driven took a spin off the dc5 when I bought it was very complimentary of the interior, especially the recaros, red cloth doors and carpet. He said his TT felt quite dull in comparison.

Biro

cpoh1 wrote: »

Coming from my dc2 at the time and having since bought a dc5 and skyline I can honestly say that the TT S3 steering were both numb as a popsicle coming from these cars. You get very little feedback and although the car fast in a straight line I got no pleasure from taking it through bends. I especially found it difficult to powerslide through bends, something most 4wd cars with ower have no problem doing. I had considered the TT as my daily drive before picking up the DC5 after being disappointed by the fun factor.

Its gas you mention the "tacky" stigma associated with jap cars, when my work mate who owns the TT ive driven took a spin off the dc5 when I bought it was very complimentary of the interior, especially the recaros, red cloth doors and carpet. He said his TT felt quite dull in comparison.

I'm a fairly big fan of the DC5, and the recaros are nice, but I wouldn't put the interior on the check-list of "reasons to buy a DC5". It's fine, but not magical really.
Cars from the VAG umbrella are by and large fairly numb in the feed-back department though. I haven't driven the latest RS4 which is supposed to be much better, but the current model A4 hasn't moved the game on any bit in the feed-back stakes.

robtri

what about a skoda octavia VRS... 1.8.. easily upped to over 220bhp with a few mods... especailly a good remap...

Ferris

'scort Cossie, can't believe I didn't think of it earlier.



I'd imagine i'd be hard to find a good one now but total old skool motor.

Atomic Pineapple

Ferris wrote: »

'scort Cossie, can't believe I didn't think of it earlier.



I'd imagine i'd be hard to find a good one now but total old skool motor.

I doubt I get one for €10k ?

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Ford/Escort/RS-Coswo/200925194340374/advert?channel=CARS

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Ford/Escort/RS-COSWO/200931194748184/advert?channel=CARS

judging by those two €20k would be more like it

The Saab Viggen always took my fancy but finding one seems to be the problem.

My initial thoughts were to buy an Rx7 and then see if I could run the Integra as an everyday car and if not get a TDi for everyday driving.

Seems to be still the best option?

Ferris

draffodx wrote: »

I doubt I get one for €10k ?

True, this is the closest I could get:

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1147415.htm

What about a remapped Alfa 156 2.4 jdm or a 530d, they wont go like a type R or maybe as reliable but they'd still be quick cars.

Personally i'd go for an Evo or S15 thats been 'fettled'. Or even better, 2 irish S14a's for the cheaper insurance. Nothig european comes close to these cars under 2L.

Atomic Pineapple

Ferris wrote: »

True, this is the closest I could get:

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1147415.htm

What about a remapped Alfa 156 2.4 jdm or a 530d, they wont go like a type R or maybe as reliable but they'd still be quick cars.

Personally i'd go for an Evo or S15 thats been 'fettled'. Or even better, 2 irish S14a's for the cheaper insurance. Nothig european comes close to these cars under 2L.

Yeh it looks like the Jap cars are the better option for me, the main aim of this thread was to see if there was some euro car that I was missing that would fit the bill.

I'll keep a newer M3 in mind as something to step up to when changing again :cool:

JHMEG

Biro wrote: »

I'm a fairly big fan of the DC5, and the recaros are nice, but I wouldn't put the interior on the check-list of "reasons to buy a DC5".

True, you don't buy one of the best handling cars ever made for the interior!