Downlighters / Insulation

Shorty69664

Hi all
We will shortly be slabbing our ceilings and I need to make decision on the downlighters to use and the insulation problems associated with downlighters.
I have done a search on the forum but can't find a definite answer to my question.

To explain:
In the downstairs (kitchen / dining area) we plan to fit 12 downlighters with 150mm rockwool in between the joist.
Upstairs (Attic space) we have another large room where we plan to fit a similar amount of downlights (This time with rafterloc insulation fitted).

So my question is:
Are there any downlights that will allow us to keep the integrity of the insulation. In other words are there downlights (Like LEDs or fire rated ones) that we can fit right against the insulation and not have to allow space for heat generated by the lamps..

Whatever about the ones in the kitchen, running the rafterloc would really annoy me.

Thanks in advance for any replys....

davelerave

the led can prob be covered but the higher temp at back may reduce bulb life (according to manual).the halogen shouldn't be covered directly due to heat build-up/fire risk.
not too sure about cfl ,but same as led prob. applies(reduced life if covered with insulation)

Shorty69664

Thanks Davelerave,
That's the definitive answer I was looking for.
Looks like I'm going to have to cut into my insulation:(.

davelerave

These lights maintain the 'fire barrier' without a hood .
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-Flameguard-Downlights-With-Dimmable-11W-Megaman-Lamp_W0QQitemZ350235818607QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090805?IMSfp=TL090805143004r10813
insulation can be laid on top according to info.

tbaymusicman

Yeah give half a foot either side of each light thats what iv always done and it improves bulb life

Carlow52

IMO recessed lighting is 'past' it from a number of aspects: air tightness, fire, energy use, light for purpose, ease of construction.

d'Oracle

I have seen insulated covers for downlighters.
They are compatible with airtightness and insulation. Just insulate around them.

Also, I thing the new LED low energy down lighters are less of a fire risk.
But Im not sure.
Although ultimatly I agree with Carlow52.
The only reason to have downlighters is because the are pretty/in the magazines.

I presume there isn't a room above your kitchen?

davelerave

Carlow52 wrote: »

IMO recessed lighting is 'past' it from a number of aspects: air tightness, fire, energy use, light for purpose, ease of construction.

recessed or flush lighting will never be 'past it'.the problems with domestic fire safety ,energy use and air tightness can be avoided now.

Carlow52

davelerave wrote: »

recessed or flush lighting will never be 'past it'.the problems with domestic fire safety ,energy use and air tightness can be avoided now.

I beg to differ.:D

Perhaps and only a perhaps, fire safety and air-tightness can be addressed through proper specs AND proper installation/workmanship, at an additional cost. 20 different connections/ holes in ceiling etc

Energy use/fit for purpose means that there is no need for 20 by 50w GU10's in a room which when I was young was lit with one 100 watt candy.

The very fact that they are recessed means that light dispersal is inefficient when compare to conventional lights.

davelerave

20 50watt halogens wasn't what i had in mind

lloydyboy

why you putting rockwool above kitchen ceiling ? soundproofing ? will this not stop the heat from rising ? leaving upstairs colder ?

2011

recessed or flush lighting will never be 'past it'.the problems with domestic fire safety ,energy use and air tightness can be avoided now.

My thoughts exactly.

Perhaps and only a perhaps, fire safety and air-tightness can be addressed through proper specs AND proper installation/workmanship

Yes it can, and has been done. There are a few simple solutions.

1) Uses LED downlighters as suggested earlier. They are cold to touch and cannot overheat if covered with insulation.

2) As is specified on some projects the area around the downlighter is boxed in. This ensures that the downlighter lamp and transformer has enough space around them for cooling. The size of this box can be specified by the manufactures.

The extra installation cost is insignificant relative to the price of building a house.

Energy use/fit for purpose means that there is no need for 20 by 50w GU10's in a room which when I was young was lit with one 100 watt candy.

I would agree that 50W GU10s are a very inefficient way to light a room. There are now CLF GU10s that are very efficient. There are LED GU10s as little as 1 watt, but the light quality is not great. This is being developed and is improving

The reality is that only a small portion of domestic electricity bills are from lighting. Many people are under the (often) false impression that they are going to make significant savings by spending a small fortune on energy efficient lamps.

If you really want to reduce your energy costs the money would often be better spend on additional insulation than changing lamps!

Most people would rather install lighting that will cost a little extra to run, but will be aesthetically pleasing in rooms such as the sitting room or kitchen.

Although a single CFL can be quite ugly:


The lighing shown below is both energy efficient and recessed:

Mullie

I'm losing heat and dust is entering our living space through our downlights. Looking for a solution to insulate existing lights from below I've come across these:
http://www.austech.com.au/site/files/ul/data_text30/1072978.pdf

Does anyone know if a similar solution is available in Ireland & UK?

Bruthal

Carlow52 wrote: »

I beg to differ.:D

Perhaps and only a perhaps, fire safety and air-tightness can be addressed through proper specs AND proper installation/workmanship, at an additional cost. 20 different connections/ holes in ceiling etc

Energy use/fit for purpose means that there is no need for 20 by 50w GU10's in a room which when I was young was lit with one 100 watt candy.

The very fact that they are recessed means that light dispersal is inefficient when compare to conventional lights.

Just because you can point out a few problems does not mean that recessed lights are past it. More common they are becoming if anything.

paddy147

Mullie wrote: »

I'm losing heat and dust is entering our living space through our downlights. Looking for a solution to insulate existing lights from below I've come across these:
http://www.austech.com.au/site/files/ul/data_text30/1072978.pdf

Does anyone know if a similar solution is available in Ireland & UK?

Michael Garry Electrical Wholesalers in Finglas has them (Aroura) for not alot of money.:)

Square box shaped fire resistant materal that can be installed from the room below too,aswell as from the attic or floor above the light.

STForSale

Hi,
I have downlights in an upstairs bedroom.
Noticed last year that all the insulation in the attic was pulled away from them, leaving an obvious gap in insulation.
This room is noticably coolder than other rooms upstairs.

Any suggestions as to how I can leave the lights in place but stop the heat loss.

Lights are never left on for long.

Carlow52

there are things called 'flowerpots' which you can get to sit over the fitting and keep the insulation at bay. Different ones have different installation requirements but the principle is the same
HTH

STForSale

Thanks, could these be bough in any DIY store or would I need to go to an electrical wholesaler?

M cebee

and change the bulbs to led if you're going to cover them

there's fittings make specifically for covering with insulation

STForSale

Thanks guys, the downlights are halogen bulbs with transformers.
Am I aright in saying that if I switch to LED bulbs, these are mains fed and I can remove the trafos.
Then cover fitting with flower pot and insulate attic as normal?

M cebee

not too familiar with the 12volt but i got some 12volt led before that were a straight swop

i wouldnt adapt the 12volt fitting for mains bulb myself

Stoner

Yes the Aroura fittings are nice, they have ones that are rated at 10Watt and with GU10 lamp holders, they are fire rated and have insulation built into them too. I'd expect them to cost approx 20 euro but they are a nice build. I have them in my place, 50mm thermal board in the ceiling, the holesaw left only 1mm of play so its a good fit, there is 150mm wool insulation above that again, i have 4Watt philips lamps in them, the ceiling height is not great in the room, there are 6 lamps totalling 24Watts and yes it is a room that a 100Watt fitting could light on its own, but i don't think I'm loosing much heat through them and the look a lot better than a centre light would in that room. but it was pricy.

paddy147

Aroura,s new thermal and accoustic downlighter fitting.

About 20-25 euro depending on where you buy from.

Not great (cost wize) if you have alot of downlights in your house.

Stoner

paddy147 wrote: »

Aroura,s new thermal and accoustic downlighter fitting.

About 20-25 euro depending on where you buy from.

Not great (cost wize) if you have alot of downlights in your house.

yes I have these fittings very good quality, they sides are thick, there is a heatsink on top and they seal up well, just note they can only carry 10Watts though so it CFL or LED only, with respect to fire rated downlights, I've spotted some very well priced fited rated fittings on line, really for the extra 3 or 4 euro they are well worth it,

Actually they look slightly different to the ones i have

paddy147

I have alot of downlights in my house.

The entire house is fitted out with dimmable Philips 4W LED GU10 lights.No heat off these at all,they barely even get warm.

I have Rockwool 100mm flexi slab in the ceiling (accoustic and thermal rated)

Ontop of that,I have Knauf 170mm insulation roll.

Sung as a bug in a rug and no cold spots or heat escape anymore.No more noise either.:)

Stoner

I merged these threads.

+1 M cebee I'd get new fittings, 12V lights are well, 12V lights some expose the 12V connectors, but you would not do that with a mains voltage, by the tme you had bought flowerpots and GU10 connectors you'd nearly have bought an insualted fitting, far safer and better.

STForSale

Cheers lads, think I'll go down the replacement fitting route, only talking about 6 lights anyway. One last question, I have a vaulted ceeling in my kitchen that has GU10's in it. These blow frequently enough for it to be a pain and I suspect they are getting to hot. Can I just replace all the bulbs with LED one's?

paddy147

STForSale wrote: »

Cheers lads, think I'll go down the replacement fitting route, only talking about 6 lights anyway. One last question, I have a vaulted ceeling in my kitchen that has GU10's in it. These blow frequently enough for it to be a pain and I suspect they are getting to hot. Can I just replace all the bulbs with LED one's?

Yes you can replace them with LED GU10 downlight bulbs.:)

STForSale

Cheers, I can just about wire a plug so apologies for the stupid questions.

paddy147

STForSale wrote: »

Cheers, I can just about wire a plug so apologies for the stupid questions.

No queston is a stupid question,so dont knock yourself for asking.

Sure if you dont ask,then you wont know.:)

Melanoma

The wires connecting to the down lights need to be correctly boxed of and if you use the new 3 watt lights you should be ok. Be careful though as the really new ones are instant but they can be white light as opposed to more traditional yellower natural light. Make sure what you select suits your tastes.

paddy147

Melanoma wrote: »

The wires connecting to the down lights need to be correctly boxed of and if you use the new 3 watt lights you should be ok. Be careful though as the really new ones are instant but they can be white light as opposed to more traditional yellower natural light. Make sure what you select suits your tastes.

Philips 4 watt dimmable LED GU10 is one of the best on the market,and its a lovely warm white too.:)

It has 1 single LED in it,but gives more or less the same light output as a normal 50 watt GU10 bulb.

Bruthal

Must be a cree led in them if its a single led. Very bright a 4 watt cree so they must be good.

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

Must be a cree led in them if its a single led. Very bright a 4 watt cree so they must be good.

The light quality off them is absolutely brilliant,and I genuinely mean that.

Lovely warm white/homely feeling off them.:)

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

The light quality off them is absolutely brilliant,and I genuinely mean that.

Lovely warm white/homely feeling off them.:)

Yea might try some, them cree leds are very bright. Have a torch with one, amazing bright.

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yea might try some, them cree leds are very bright. Have a torch with one, amazing bright.

I could post a pic or 50 showing how good the light quality is from them.;):D

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

I could post a pic or 50 showing how good the light quality is from them.;):D

Melanoma

paddy147 wrote: »

Philips 4 watt dimmable LED GU10 is one of the best on the market,and its a lovely warm white too.:)

It has 1 single LED in it,but gives more or less the same light output as a normal 50 watt GU10 bulb.

Thanks Paddy.

paddy147

Melanoma wrote: »

Thanks Paddy.

No problem.
Trust me,these are very good LED GU10s indeed.:)

foreman

anyone know where these can be purchased at good price? paddy how much u pay for yours?

.G.

From memory he got them in Eurosales which is also where I got mine but I'm sure other electrical wholesalers will sell them

I got the non dimmable version which was around the €8 mark per lamp

Carlow52

paddy147 wrote: »

Philips 4 watt dimmable LED GU10 is one of the best on the market,and its a lovely warm white too.:)

It has 1 single LED in it,but gives more or less the same light output as a normal 50 watt GU10 bulb.

In the interest of glasnost and perestroika, I think statements like this need to be supported by links to the respective bulbs.

To get the ball rolling the following links are offered
http://www.novelenergylighting.com/product-range/gu10-lamps/gu10-4w/philips-masterled-gu10-spot-4w-3000k-40d-dimmable.html

Which says in the spec sheet that it is equiv to 35 watts.

35 is 70% of 50 so Paddy if ur pay was cut by 30% would you still think it more or less.

The next link is the closet I could get to the normal 50wGU10
http://www.voltimum.ie/catalog/prod/PHR-49488720/prod-P/HalogenA-PAR20-50W-E27-240V-10D-1CT-Philips.html

While temp is much the same, there is a big difference in the
luminous intensity, which is described here
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci553541,00.html

The led luminous intensity is shown as 310 cd

The halogen luminous intensity is shown as 2550 cd


If the application calls for 2000 or better, 310 just wont do.

I am not being difficult here but it is important to have a balanced and informed debate

Bruthal

Carlow52 wrote: »

35 is 70% of 50 so Paddy if ur pay was cut by 30% would you still think it more or less.

How you would equate them as comparable is a mystery.

FMartinp

superg wrote: »

From memory he got them in Eurosales which is also where I got mine but I'm sure other electrical wholesalers will sell them

I got the non dimmable version which was around the €8 mark per lamp

All the Wholesalers have them. I've bought them from ESL in Inchicore in the past and got them from Trade Electric in Santry last week. Great bulb.

paddy147

foreman wrote: »

anyone know where these can be purchased at good price? paddy how much u pay for yours?

8 euro 50 cents,plus vat for the philips dimmable led gu10.:)

paddy147

Carlow52 wrote: »

In the interest of glasnost and perestroika, I think statements like this need to be supported by links to the respective bulbs.

To get the ball rolling the following links are offered
http://www.novelenergylighting.com/product-range/gu10-lamps/gu10-4w/philips-masterled-gu10-spot-4w-3000k-40d-dimmable.html

Which says in the spec sheet that it is equiv to 35 watts.

35 is 70% of 50 so Paddy if ur pay was cut by 30% would you still think it more or less.

The next link is the closet I could get to the normal 50wGU10
http://www.voltimum.ie/catalog/prod/PHR-49488720/prod-P/HalogenA-PAR20-50W-E27-240V-10D-1CT-Philips.html

While temp is much the same, there is a big difference in the
luminous intensity, which is described here
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci553541,00.html

The led luminous intensity is shown as 310 cd

The halogen luminous intensity is shown as 2550 cd


If the application calls for 2000 or better, 310 just wont do.

I am not being difficult here but it is important to have a balanced and informed debate

Tell you what,go and buy some of them and stick them up in you;re ceiling against the normal 50 watt bulbs.

I tend to deal with real world and not lots of internet links and posts that say this,that and the other.

Stoner

paddy147 wrote: »

Tell you what,go and buy some of them and stick them up in you;re ceiling against the normal 50 watt bulbs.

I tend to deal with real world and not lots of internet links and posts that say this,that and the other.

Paddy like everyone else here your "real world" is limited to your experience and knowledge. It's great that you are happy with the Philips 4Watt Master LEDs that you have bought boxes of from Eurosales in Dublin.

However, like all the lamp manufacturers, Philips have had issues in the past with problem LED lamps. They recalled a lamp type this year, it had issues with size, running and dimming capabilities. Therefore as many manufacturer's LED lamps have generally underperformed in the past we have to add here that our opinion on the performance on the latest Philips 4Watt LED to be based on our opinion, experience and knowledge.

I have made the same decision as you and replaced my CFL lamps with philips 4Watt lamps, but it's a gamble and as I had wired my house in a certain way I have enough downlight positions and centre lights to compensate for any drop in light intensity. However it is a risk and people should read up on the different options and if people want to post various links then they are free to do so.
Your experience is, in my humble opinion somewhat limited to your house and this does not qualify you to shun a fellow poster for posting links to other products for other posters to read.

So in our "real world" unless we have used many Philips LEDs for 15000 hours without failure our advice can only be considered as speculative based on the text printed on the box, plus we must consider the sample size too, I have advised on this before. Paper wont refuse ink, some people like the details and want to make an informed decision.

Before we can advise on a lamp we need to know the conditions. How does the person describe light, understand what is important to them and don't assume it's the same as what is important to us, i.e it's white, muiti source, cosy, cold, yellow, long lasting, not flickery, fast start, secure, expensive, mixed light, warm, dim, saves money, industrial, surgical or low energy. People want different things.

Do people want to replace lights? if so what are they replacing, when they say 50Watt halogens, do we ask 50Watt 12 volt or 50Watt 220V? we should ask this question because they are two different lamps with two different intensities of light and it's a different job replacing either type. If we don't know or understand that then we should hold off on advising them on a replacement. If we didn't know that there were different types of 50Watt halogen lamps then should we offer advice in the first place?

Therefore we must be mindful of other poster's perspective, building, opinion and people's individual "real worlds" not just our own.

For example should we advise someone to use 4W LED to replace 12V 50Watt halogens? I would not. Would I advise a 7watt philips lamp? yes if they wanted to dim them or need a fast start, but if they don't mind a slower start and don't need dimming why not go for the 11Watt CFL? it has a proven track record and costs about 8 euro compared to about 30 euro for the 7watt. How does the running cost of 4Watt compare against the lamp life or running cost saving? what is the users risk exposure to lamp failure? very high on the 7Watt 4 times less on the 11Watt.

These are all factors that we need to consider when giving advice about lamps. There are guys here who have installed and replaced 1000s of lamps many of which were LEDs, many people here have been bitten by failing lamps and take what is written on the box of any lamp with a pinch of salt.

I'm making a long point in an attempt to inform boards users that there are options with respect to LED fittings. I have used the aurora fittings and lamps too and found them to be a good fitting and lamp, but I've heard that their LEDs have not been living up to the printed word either. CFLs still have a place.
I've posted here over the years about how CFLs are dropping in Wattage and LEDs are increasing in Wattage. There were users here years ago claiming that the 1/2Watt LEDs were nearly as good as 50Watt halogens. They could not see past the money saving, they never even noticed that the LEDs were practically blue until their partner came in and told them they were blue, the room was too dark and to put the old lamps back so they could read the paper.

Now we are talking about entry level 3 or 4Watt LEDs Philips are selling, 3, 4, 7, 8 and 12Watt LEDs while megaman are selling 7, 9, 11 and 14Watt CFLs. Very close now. Technically everything stacks up for LEDs but that does not mean that every LED lamp stacks up technically or has been proven to do so.

There is a balance, wiring conditions, opinions on light colour and intensity along with a high risk of failure associated with LED lamps that readers need to be aware. So reading around is always advised, valuing the opinion of others and questioning our own thinking is encouraged here as is being aware that there are some very experienced posters here with great advice, so read around everyone please there is no need to force a brand or supplier, particularly when recommending a new product over a stable product.

I don't want this to turn into an argument, I attempted to write a balanced post here, as a moderator I am limited somewhat when it comes to engaging with other posters, often i have walked away from a potential healthy debate as I feel a mod should bring balance to a forum and in doing so a moderator should avoid potential conflict. Plus it's never really a level playing field when you take on a mod Therefore I try to limit my posts to less popular threads. However in this case I think that we need moderation and balance. Read around, shop around. Thanks all.

fred funk }{

Great post Stoner. Spot on.

paddy147

Philips Ireland recalled the 1st master 4 watt LED light due to size issues and also with some buzzing issues whe the light was dimmed down.

These original lights were 1mm oversized and were produced by Philips,for a large scale project in Norway.That project was then canceled due to a client pulling out due to financial reasons,and the bulbs were released onto the Irish market by accident.

These GU10 lights were 1mm oversized and would not fit alot of downlight fittings and they were recalled.

The new/upgraded GU10 4 watt LED is the right size now and fully dimmable now (with certain types of dimmer switch and panels).Philips clearly state this on their website and on a PDF file too.

I had this problem and I sent my lights back to Philips,who gladly changed all 50 lights over to the correct ones,for free too.

I got another 4 for free,as a "sorry and thankyou for you're custom" gesture.

When these 4 watt LED lights are placed up against the normal 50 watt bulbs,they are of the same brightness and light quality as a normal and very hot 50 watt bulb.

Ive stated this in several other threads,as have other members who have tried out and compared these bulbs to the old 50 watt bulbs.So we all are not wrong here.

But sure what would I know,eh.:D



PS-Im not wanting or trying to have an arguement with anyone,I am merely giving my verdict and opinions (as a home owner and also as a customer) on something that I have tried out in the flesh/real world,and am very very happy with.As are other members too.

Im going to bow out of this now,as I dont want any arguements and dont need to be banned again,as I was allready banned thanks to 1 particular member.

Regards and Happy Halloween.:)

Stoner

paddy147 wrote: »

When these 4 watt LED lights are placed up against the normal 50 watt bulbs,they are of the same brightness and light quality as a normal and very hot 50 watt bulb.

Paddy this is simply not true

We still don't know the type of halogen lamp being compared against I've already explained the difference more than once.

Also Philips themselves suggest that their 4W lamp should be compared to a 35W lamp, they offer their 7W lamp as a replacement to the 50W lamp.

I have checked this with a Lux meter and a 50Watt 12V lamp is more intense and "brighter" than a 4 Watt LED. The 7 watt is a match when comparing the angle and intensity.

In the other thread you mention about how little heat an LED generates when it is out of it's enclosure and in your hand, your open hand is neither a measuring instrument nor is it similar to the environment where a is lamp housed in an enclosure running for 5 hours building up heat, remember we are talking about an insulated housing that restrict air flow.

This is why I came in to this thread, not to get you banned that is not how I have behaved in the past, I'm not saying you don't know anything, your opinion is valued but it's not the gospel it contains risk and flaws and other posters can investigate and suggest other options if they want.

Your last post only offered further poor advice while also backing up my simple point that Philips recalled a lamp, just because you investigated it and got a story about how and why does not change the fact that it happened, they handled it well fair play to them.

If you have bowed out then I will just close the thread now as I think that it has served its purpose.