how much for accountant fees?

michael544

hi

i run a retail shop in dublin, turnover circa 3 million.

i feel our accountant is a bit generous with his own fees, and works just as a %age of turnover!

basically, we do all the bookkeeping, VAT returns, p60s etc. he only does the end of year accounts, plus owners income tax, CGT, etc. (there's two of us, sole trader). the end of year is messy, to be fair to him, as my partner is sloppy with filling in cheque stubs, keeping receipts in order (if at all!), etc.

he doesn't do any income tax paperwork for employees, (4 full time).

his fees total about 10k a year, and he won't give a breakdown, only ever just sends in a bill for a few thousand every few months.

any thoughts on whats a fair bill for this?

smcgiff

michael544 wrote: »

hi

the end of year is messy, to be fair to him, as my partner is sloppy with filling in cheque stubs, keeping receipts in order (if at all!), etc.

I haven't worked in practice for donkey's but that doesn't seem a bad fee to my mind. And as a % that's only a third of one percent. You are doing a lot of the work, but you're ruining it by being "sloppy" - so there's a good chance they can't rely on the work you are doing.

Although in the current climate a discount from bargaining is very possible.

Others from a background in practice, not to mention the "I could do it cheaper" brigade may have a more up to date view.

Bookkeeper09

Does seem a little on the high side.
I work in practice at the moment.
Have prepared audit exempt accounts(including Corporation tax return & CRO filing) for Retail company with turnover approx 3.5-4m for approx €6.5K.
If you are doing your own bookkeeping how at the end of the year is there still an issue with no details on cheques? Your bookeeper should probably be following up on these during the year???

prinz

Seems reasonable enough to me. You admit yourself that you have issues with keeping records etc, how good is your bookkeeping? Having worked on accounts where I have had to chase up banks for copies of cheques, verify the bookkeeping, and deal with business owners who are sloppy with accounts and transactions then it can be extremely time consuming. I have spent upwards of a week sorting out boxes and boxes of records and trying to verify client prepared VAT3's.

michael544

prinz wrote: »

Seems reasonable enough to me. You admit yourself that you have issues with keeping records etc, how good is your bookkeeping? Having worked on accounts where I have had to chase up banks for copies of cheques, verify the bookkeeping, and deal with business owners who are sloppy with accounts and transactions then it can be extremely time consuming. I have spent upwards of a week sorting out boxes and boxes of records and trying to verify client prepared VAT3's.

i might have overstated the "sloppy" nature of the bookkeeping!

it's not boxes and boxes, or pages of blank cheques, but at year end there's about maybe 10 cheques that we need to get copies from the bank, the odd creditor's statement missing, maybe a query or two on what a particular payment was for etc. the "no details on the cheque" is usually sorted the second we see the cheque copy, so it's not a big deal. the bookkeeping is in very good order otherwise.

the rest of the records are spot on.

thanks for the replies everyone

Cgm

Appears high based on what I charge myself as an accountant for businesses of your size but then again I am set up on my own and overheads are probably not as large as for a medium sized accounting firm.

Ontheball2

There seems to be mixed views from the other guys. In todays market 10,000 is way to much for your level of business. I'm guessing that it is set up as a partnership. I work in medium sized accountancy practise and we would be able to sort you out with a full service for 5,000 Euro. They say you should change your accountant ever 3 years, it is always worth shopping around,

Owen
Owen@KDAaccountants.ie

Bren1609

Ontheball2 wrote: »

There seems to be mixed views from the other guys. In todays market 10,000 is way to much for your level of business. I'm guessing that it is set up as a partnership. I work in medium sized accountancy practise and we would be able to sort you out with a full service for 5,000 Euro. They say you should change your accountant ever 3 years, it is always worth shopping around,

Owen
Owen@KDAaccountants.ie

I've never heard that before?

dbran

Ontheball2 wrote: »

They say you should change your accountant ever 3 years

I would think a client who changed their accountant every three years would look as dodgy as hell:rolleyes:

Glenbhoy

it's seems fair enough imo, if you're not happy with it you could perhaps try and get him to take over the paye function or some of the other admin bookkeeping roles for you for the same fee.

BonoVox

That seems to be on the very high side particularly when you are doing all the bookwork yourself.
By comparison, as a bookkeeping firm, we have a couple of similar clients with two city centre shops each and do the bookkeeping & paye for about 200 euros a month. While the turnover for these clients in more in the 1mil pa, the accounts are reconciled and we hand it over to one of the auditors who we work with on a regular basis. As they know the accounts are well prepared, it costs about 3k per annum. Without seeing the books and on the basis of your turnover being higher it would cost roughly 4k. Therefore you should only be paying about 6.5k per annum for your books plus you wouldn't have to do any of the bookwork yourself.
I haven't heard of changing your accountant every three years but the best advice is to shop around and look at your options. You should weigh up outsourcing your payroll and bookkeeping and then get addtional quotes from other accountants. We're in a recession, so don't be afraid to ask for a discount!

Hanley

dbran wrote: »

I would think a client who changed their accountant every three years would look as dodgy as hell:rolleyes:

Not to mention how expensive first year engagement fees tend to be!!

viztopia

encouraging people to change accountants seems a bit mad to me. i had always been told that the Revenue dont think much of people who seem to change their accountant regularily.

BonoVox

viztopia wrote: »

encouraging people to change accountants seems a bit mad to me. i had always been told that the Revenue dont think much of people who seem to change their accountant regularily.

I think the Revenue have changed their organisation and don't really care who the submitting agent is as long as the returns are filed and paid. Given that the Revenue have moved quite a few staff into Audit and Collections in the past twelve months their focus has changed to being agressive debt collectors.

corcaigh1

Ontheball2 wrote: »

There seems to be mixed views from the other guys. In todays market 10,000 is way to much for your level of business. I'm guessing that it is set up as a partnership. I work in medium sized accountancy practise and we would be able to sort you out with a full service for 5,000 Euro. They say you should change your accountant ever 3 years, it is always worth shopping around,

Owen
Owen@KDAaccountants.ie

Cutting throats are we then...

TaxingTimes

Regarding the 3 year matter, having worked for big firms in my experience - it is very common practice for large organisations to put their audit, accountancy and related work out to tender every 3 years.

However, it would not be usual for smaller businesses to do so as a matter of course, but no harm in looking around every so often. But, if you are happy with your advisor, why rock the boat........... only do so if you have issues.

AP75

I would strongly advise to get a good book keeper. Install Sage line 50 and get the bookeeper to keep your records updated once a week. An experience book keeper should have most of the tedious work done for the accountant.

I had a similar problem to you and could not cope with the fees. I went to a new accountants and told them that i was not happy with the fees as they were a little bit extortionnate. The new accountants ( BHP Accountants Ltd, Newry) advise me what I said to you above. They came out to my business and installed the sage line 50 and also provided an experience book-keeper. I pay the book-keeper and then pay the accountant at the end of the year separately. they are happy to just the get fees on the end of year accounts, which was quoted before the accounts started.

Always get a quote of your accountant before they start the accounts. You should be able to barter with your accountant especially in the current economic environment

niamhdonn

HI

WHAT IS THE NAME AND CONTACT DETAILS OF THAT ACCOUNTS FIRM PLEASE
WE HAVE A TURNOVER OF APPROD 1MIL OUR BOOKEEPER BRING TO TRIAL BALANCE, DOES ALL THE P30 VAT PAYROLL ETC AND HANDS IT OVER FOR YEAR END
HE CHARGED 3500 FOR LAST YEAR ACCOUNT DO YOU THINK THIS IS OK

tenchi-fan

niamhdonn wrote: »

HI

WHAT IS THE NAME AND CONTACT DETAILS OF THAT ACCOUNTS FIRM PLEASE
WE HAVE A TURNOVER OF APPROD 1MIL OUR BOOKEEPER BRING TO TRIAL BALANCE, DOES ALL THE P30 VAT PAYROLL ETC AND HANDS IT OVER FOR YEAR END
HE CHARGED 3500 FOR LAST YEAR ACCOUNT DO YOU THINK THIS IS OK

niamh, you don't need an accountant to tell you this, but you'll end up paying much the same. Also the original post is a year old.

whatawaster

Are these audited accounts?
If so, the fee could be fair enough.

The tax work will tend to be more expensive per hour than the drones in the office doing the accounts work, that could be pushing it up.

In fairness, they should at least break down your bill between accounts, audit, CT, CGT, secretarial etc.

AP75

niamhdonn wrote: »

HI

WHAT IS THE NAME AND CONTACT DETAILS OF THAT ACCOUNTS FIRM PLEASE
WE HAVE A TURNOVER OF APPROD 1MIL OUR BOOKEEPER BRING TO TRIAL BALANCE, DOES ALL THE P30 VAT PAYROLL ETC AND HANDS IT OVER FOR YEAR END
HE CHARGED 3500 FOR LAST YEAR ACCOUNT DO YOU THINK THIS IS OK

BHP Accountants ltd based in newry, email teresa@bhpaccountantsltd.com
04830833338
You could give them a bell easy people to talked to

good luck

UpAgainToday

Ontheball2 wrote: »

There seems to be mixed views from the other guys. In todays market 10,000 is way to much for your level of business. I'm guessing that it is set up as a partnership. I work in medium sized accountancy practise and we would be able to sort you out with a full service for 5,000 Euro. They say you should change your accountant ever 3 years, it is always worth shopping around,

Owen
Owen@KDAaccountants.ie

Are you high? I worked in accounting for 1 year and apparently thats a pretty big taboo approaching people you do not know offering work for cheaper lol

suckslikeafox

Ontheball2 wrote: »

There seems to be mixed views from the other guys. In todays market 10,000 is way to much for your level of business. I'm guessing that it is set up as a partnership. I work in medium sized accountancy practise and we would be able to sort you out with a full service for 5,000 Euro. They say you should change your accountant ever 3 years, it is always worth shopping around,

Owen
Owen@KDAaccountants.ie

do you tell your own clients that? :P

Yrag2E

wrong place

mozattack

All I would say is... you pay peanuts and you may get monkeys.

PM if interested, we look after quite a few retail outlets.