Global expansion

thebaz

The world cup has been great for rugby, but with the exception of Argentina and maybe Italy , no major international player has emerged.

Through the nineties I thought Canada or U.S.A. would emerge , but this hasn't happened, anyone see any new country emerging ? .
For me the Pacific Islands are great , but realistically due to size and best players going to NZ, they will never be able to up it. I think it would be great for the game if someone like Canada or Spain became a power.

fintonie

I think the problem is they see the likes of Italy and Argentina how long it is taking them to get on some sort of level playing field, would you send your country men out to be hackaaed to bits by NZ would you would you I ask.

irishbucsfan

I can see Georgia or Romania improving over time. I think if their economies pick up they will start to show more of an interest in rugby over wrestling.

I know a lot of people always say the USA have potential to be great but I really can't see them adopting rugby any more considering the strength of their own national sports. Then again it would only take a couple of states or maybe one major city to take a serious interest in the sport and they could really become serious powers.

I don't think Japan will ever be a power, just a cash cow. Perhaps Spain or Portugal, but the sport is still in its infancy in those countries.

Stev_o

Canada have a very good team this year better then their neighbours for once and i really like the direction they are going.

The PI's will always put up a fight for the RWC but dew to them all being contracted in France and England they rarely get released for Pacific Cup matches.

Portugal i think have pretty much decided that 7's is where their interests lies at for the moment and they are a very good team with some excellent players who would whitewash any 7's team we would throw together.

The US are fairly f*cked until they either manage to pull more AF players when they are young and able to make the switch or somehow pull players from Highland RFC but dew to the Evangelist beliefs of many of their players it's extremely unlikely many will play on due to having to play on Sundays.

Kalashnikov_Kid

Promoting soccer in the US has been difficult enough, never mind rugby. And some US Colleges have made budget cutbacks on Soccer recently due to the R word so its hard to see how therell ever be enough money/interest for the game to truly kick off there.

Maybe one of the African nations could come to the fore. Always thought Kenya looked v. impressive at the 7s, and rugbys the kind of game that would fit in with their geneology.

Stev_o

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

Promoting soccer in the US has been difficult enough, never mind rugby. And some US Colleges have made budget cutbacks on Soccer recently due to the R word so its hard to see how therell ever be enough money/interest for the game to truly kick off there.

Maybe one of the African nations could come to the fore. Always thought Kenya looked v. impressive at the 7s, and rugbys the kind of game that would fit in with their geneology.

As much as i love Kenyan rugby i cannot see them transfer their success to the XV man game they just don't have big enough players. Sevens is the best place for them.

sm.org

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I can see Georgia or Romania improving over time. I think if their economies pick up they will start to show more of an interest in rugby over wrestling.

I know a lot of people always say the USA have potential to be great but I really can't see them adopting rugby any more considering the strength of their own national sports. Then again it would only take a couple of states or maybe one major city to take a serious interest in the sport and they could really become serious powers.

I don't think Japan will ever be a power, just a cash cow. Perhaps Spain or Portugal, but the sport is still in its infancy in those countries.

Rugby is pretty much on the way out in Romania, the numbers have been dropping steadily since the early 90's. They looked like making the breakthrough before Italy but now never will.

The Georgians look like the most natural bunch of forwards you'll ever see. They isn't huge interest in Georgia in other foreign sports so with the right support rugby could take a stranglehold there. Having said that I have almost no faith in the IRB and their constant "jobs for the lads" attitude.

chupacabra

I would love to see the mighty Germans come back to the strength they had pre ww2. They used to be one of the biggest rugby nations in the world! The eastern European countries can always do well, the likes of Romania, Poland and the Ukraine they just need the funding to develop, Russia too. Rugby league is considered a national sport in Papua new guinea and have produced a few good players who have gone on to play NRL in Oz, if they ever made the switch to Rugby union they could be a decent emerging nation.

OldJay

Stev_o wrote: »

As much as i love Kenyan rugby i cannot see them transfer their success to the XV man game they just don't have big enough players. Sevens is the best place for them.

???
What are you basing this on exactly? The Sevens alone? In my experience of Kenyan rugby union, you couldn't be further from the truth.

Before any expansion ever takes place, certain unions will need to re-establish themselves.

Chucky the tree

Goodluck finding 18st+ Kenyan props.

[Jackass]

France were very much like Italy are now when they first joined the then 5 nations...

It takes time...there have been some missed oppertunities also...the game was once very popular in Romania and not only that, but they were a very respectable side, but the unions didn't want to share the pie, and that died down, and with it, the untapped Eastern European interest, lost to soccer now...even though nations like Georgia have emerged...Eastern Europe has / had a lot of potential, to this day though, very little effort or funding is put into developing the game outside of the base nations...even pacific islands struggle..yet you can't help but feel if proper competition and league structure were put in place, good funding of facilities, and an ability to retain their most talented players, you could develop 3 more top nations there...

USA & Canada have potential to be decent, but I don't think the sport will ever be able to be big enough there to make them top level sides, in Asia, Japan could become a very powerfull nation and seem to be self sufficient enough that it could possibly happen...

In Africa, to be honest, there's 2 hopes...funding & facilities will never be there...teams like Namibia (although we tried to prove otherwise in 07) are nothing short of awful.

Major European nations, such as Germany, Spain etc. etc. are lost imo...not as much rugby culture and lost to soccer. Fans wouldn't have the patience for the game either when they can watch their local soccer team, one of the best in Europe, and their national teams, the best in the world...Italy is an interesting one, but has far more rugby culture within the country than other countries around them. Argentina also enjoyed a culture from exodes from Europe which brought the sport there.

Stev_o

Jackass, Romania went bust when Communism ended. During that regieme they were well funded and probably the first professionals playing at the when the Wall fell all that government money went away and the game slowly died off.

thebaz

chupacabra wrote: »

I would love to see the mighty Germans come back to the strength they had pre ww2. They used to be one of the biggest rugby nations in the world! .

thats interesting , rugby I think would suit Germany more than Spain or Portugal - not sure they would play an intesting brand , more a consevative English style:D

tommy57

fiji can be a good side had a good world cup in 2007. play some lovely rugby very entertaining .their a bit mad though they take alot of risks which does prove to be their downfall. a bit like newcastle under keegann a few years ago great going forward and not a clue how to defend.

Peter B

I think if 7s gets incorporated in the Olympics it may help spread the game world wide. Some countries may then build to having a 15s team.

Anyone know what the story is with 7s being used for the 2012 Olympics? Has the decision been made yet? When will it be made?

Sandeman

In my opinion whatever development happens outside the group of the top 10 ranked nations can only happen and be sustained with the IRB blessing and support. Of course one of the major decision points will be the potential return that IRB can have. I believe it was like that in the past when they decided to invest in Italy rather than Romania, which was at the time more developed rugby wise. So the country economy itself can be a huge factor, and might leave outside some good candidates like Georgia. In Europe probably a suitable candidate would be Portugal, the game became very popular after their presence in the world cup, they increased the number of players, have increased the attendances of the domestic game, are very successful at 7's but have a very amateur structure and poor level of domestic league. It is true they have invested more in 7's, it suits them better financially and probably fits better in their players profile (fast skilled backs). Still this season they won away in Romania and drew with georgia in the XV version of the game.
Outside Europe the country that looks more likely to be supported seems to be Japan, they have already a decent level, they have the economy to support it and got awarded the organisation of the World Cup, strong signal and support.
Whatever they decide to do they need to make sure that they invest in two things: Allow those countries to play regularly against the top Nations (autumn or summer tests) and develop a strong domestic league.

PS: In regards to Sevens and the Olympics the IOC will chose and vote on which sports to include in October this year

thebaz

Japans problem is size, I think they have more players than NZ., play a good attractive game, but lack bulk - they must convert some of those Sumo's - maybe for height import some Samoans like NZ

anonymous_joe

Name a country with a historical population of big lads.

About the only ones who don't play rugby are teh Yanks and Canadians (who are too small) and maybe the Nordics? Who all have a rake load of sports to play.

Basically, somewhere like Italy, Argentina and that's about all you can hope for. Japan if they can find some props could be good too.

Chucky the tree

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Name a country with a historical population of big lads.

About the only ones who don't play rugby are teh Yanks and Canadians (who are too small) and maybe the Nordics? Who all have a rake load of sports to play.

Basically, somewhere like Italy, Argentina and that's about all you can hope for. Japan if they can find some props could be good too.

????

anonymous_joe

Chucky the tree wrote: »

????

I mean to a big degree. Canadian rugby's gone backwards in ten years, as has American rugby.

I mean, it's a tiny sport there.

I hate all this global ****.
If a country wants a big rugby team then let them do the dirty work,why should us rugby nations let them have the world cup so we have to trek it and spend fortunes to get there.

Let them do it off their own back.

Look at Argentina they have the passion and are doing a great job,then look at the US who constantly bitch about it,**** em.
Let them look after themselves.

If they want to grow the game in their country then they should do it off their own back.

anonymous_joe

Dakota Spicy Syntax wrote: »

I hate all this global ****.
If a country wants a big rugby team then let them do the dirty work,why should us rugby nations let them have the world cup so we have to trek it and spend fortunes to get there.

Let them do it off their own back.

Look at Argentina they have the passion and are doing a great job,then look at the US who constantly bitch about it,**** em.
Let them look after themselves.

If they want to grow the game in their country then they should do it off their own back.

The reason people want to help other countries develop is to make more money in general. If the USA was a huge rugby nation there'd probably be loads more cash in rugby. That's what they want.

Also, rugby does have a bit of a chip in its shoulder because it's such a niche sport I find. Much as I love it, compared to the likes of football it really is a small small sport.

Sandeman

Dakota Spicy Syntax wrote: »

I hate all this global ****.
If they want to grow the game in their country then they should do it off their own back.

That is a fair point, and I agree that the bulk of this work has to come from these countries, however this will only bring them so far. There has been a few examples already mentioned of countries doing a great work that are still not getting at least the opportunity to play bigger nations on Summer or Autumn Tests. Without playing better Nations on a regular basis there is only so much that can be done to improve level, visibility and interest of Rugby in those countries - And this applies to everybody not only the Tier 2 and 3 countries. France, Argentina and Italy are only some examples of countries that at different times were allowed to "enter the big boys club" and they took it from there to find their own space in the rugby world. I do believe there are maybe 2 or 3 countries that could benefit from the same on top of the work they are already doing.
Of course this becomes a mere academic discussion if we think that the current setup (World Cup, IRB and FIRA Competitions, etc) is good as it is and the game does not need to have new comers or penetrate further in new countries and regions.

chupacabra

Id like to see the Churchill cup expanded to include more developing nations like Portugal, Japan and one or two of the pacific island nations.

Stev_o

chupacabra wrote: »

Id like to see the Churchill cup expanded to include more developing nations like Portugal, Japan and one or two of the pacific island nations.

It's at the same time as the Pacific Cup or whatever it's called so it's doubtful they would be able to partake. It is invitational so there is always the possibilty of the likes of Romania or Portugal taking part but as we saw with Georgia the problem lies with France's TOP14 and T2 where most of these players are contracted and who would be still playing in some circumstances and others will have their club force them not to go.

Amazotheamazing

These are the current ranking for one to 30.

IRB World Rankings - 03 August 2009
Position (last week) Member Union Rating Point
1(1) SOUTH AFRICA 90.98
2(2) NEW ZEALAND 89.42
3(3) AUSTRALIA 86.06
4(4) IRELAND 83.27
5(5) FRANCE 81.48
6(6) ARGENTINA 81.29
7(7) ENGLAND 81.23
8(8) WALES 80.74
9(9) FIJI 76.52
10(10) SCOTLAND 75.23
11(11) SAMOA 73.48
12(12) ITALY 71.23
13(13) CANADA 70.07
14(14) JAPAN 68.37
15(15) TONGA 67.53
16(16) RUSSIA 67.17
17(17) GEORGIA 66.85
18(18) USA 65.97
19(19) ROMANIA 64.85
20(20) PORTUGAL 62.16
21(21) URUGUAY 61.97
22(22) SPAIN 59.01
23(23) CHILE 57.95
24(24) KOREA 57.90
25(25) NAMIBIA 56.60
26(26) GERMANY 55.35
27(27) TUNISIA 55.28
28(28) KAZAKHSTAN 55.12
29(29) BRAZIL 54.97
30(30) POLAND 54.42

I really think the IRB (and the various unions) are missing a massive trick, during the November internationals, the IRB should support lesser teams to tour the tier one countries to play the club/provincial sides. It sorta happened last year, with Portugal touring Ireland and Georgia touring the UK at various times in the season. The IRB should work to make it more official.

It would be class, imo, to see a Munster side for example, face Germany and Georgia during the International break and would be a higher standard than the teams might be used to. The same teams would then go on to play Connacht, Leinster Ulster etc.