Formal Music Knowledge

PaulBrewer

How many people here have actual music knowledge I wonder ?



Here's a fascinating video by Bobby McFerrin -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6tB2KiZuk

Rockshamrover

I like quavers, the cheesy ones.

No formal training, just like Django but I have a few more fingers:D

i57dwun4yb1pt8

use it alot more since i began piano, cos it all makes sense with a piano .

Rockshamrover

Interesting you raising the subject of formal music training.

I was talking to my dad the other day about the BBC proms. They did a load of jazz and big band music from all the MGM movies. The kind of stuff he loves.

He wasn't happy with their performance, he said they were all playing from sheet music (normal for an orchestra) But they didn't get the "feel" of the music across.

He felt it was all to stiff and not natural.

I suppose it's a bit like the debate about doing music production in college or learning by doing.

A bit of both is probably best.

ICN

As a Kid & Young Teenager.. Had me sum learnin. It definitely stands to you.

Left it all behind as I rode into the twlight of my Late Teens / Early 20's.

Hoping to start Piana lessons in September.

ogy

i think a balance between theory and intuition (head and heart i guess) leads to the most interesting results! i think you can get very far on intuition though, lots of bands/artists with little or no traditional musical training have proved that.

it depends a lot on the person too i guess, i know guys who know their theory inside out and definitely use it to their advantage, but i also know guys who play by ear and are not at all limited by this.

Rockshamrover

ogy wrote: »

i think a balance between theory and intuition (head and heart i guess) leads to the most interesting results! i think you can get very far on intuition though, lots of bands/artists with little or no traditional musical training have proved that.

it depends a lot on the person too i guess, i know guys who know their theory inside out and definitely use it to their advantage, but i also know guys who play by ear and are not at all limited by this.

There's some things you just can't learn in school.

But the reverse is also true.

bedbugs

I'd be a kind-of advocate of music training. I had some in my childhood and teens in classical guitar and theory.

SOME of it stands to me, but more often than not I find it to be a hindrance. there's always something in the back of my mind that tells me I have to follow certain rules and stuff ends up uber-normal. So I end up straining to change rules.

I'd love to have a mentality where I could just write without any rules at all.

PaulBrewer

Rockshamrover wrote: »

There's some things you just can't learn in school.

But the reverse is also true.

School in learn can't just you things some there's ? mmmm I see ....

seannash

ive got no formal training and to be honest i feel like its hindering me more than ever.
as soon as i get settled im gettin me some piano lessons.

i reckon dance music production is the only area where you can get away with not being able to play an instrument but its definitely an advantage to know how to

madtheory

Rockshamrover wrote: »

I... he said they were all playing from sheet music (normal for an orchestra) But they didn't get the "feel" of the music across.

Rockshamrover wrote: »

I suppose it's a bit like the debate about doing music production in college or learning by doing.

I guess you're making that comparison because musicians who read are trained? But actually, for solo and small ensembles, it's more usual not to sight read. Some orchestras do that too. It's like the advice often given to budding conductors- "the music in your head, not your head in the score". I always make the singer go and learn the words if they arrive with a lyric sheet, it usually makes for a more engaging performance.

But an orchestra that is well motivated and rehearsed will give a great performance, and that is the conductor's responsibility. On its own, readiing doesn't imply lack feel. But it may be a symptom of a lack of rehearsal, and/ or a band where they are motivated only by the wage.

So I think comparing formal education to experiential learning, based on this example, is a bit of a reach! Formal music training has a lot of "doing" in it.

Rockshamrover

madtheory wrote: »

I guess you're making that comparison because musicians who read are trained? But actually, for solo and small ensembles, it's more usual not to sight read. Some orchestras do that too. It's like the advice often given to budding conductors- "the music in your head, not your head in the score". I always make the singer go and learn the words if they arrive with a lyric sheet, it usually makes for a more engaging performance.

But an orchestra that is well motivated and rehearsed will give a great performance, and that is the conductor's responsibility. On its own, readiing doesn't imply lack feel. But it may be a symptom of a lack of rehearsal, and/ or a band where they are motivated only by the wage.

So I think comparing formal education to experiential learning, based on this example, is a bit of a reach! Formal music training has a lot of "doing" in it.

Hi MT,

What I was trying to convey was that no matter how well trained you are or rehearsed for that matter. You have to love/ feel/understand the music you are playing to properly communicate it to your audience.

I think, as you mentioned above, it's motivation or why you are playing the music.

In this case these guys were all classically trained (I would imagine) and probably came into music for love of classical music. They performed the big band stuff on the night. My dad, who loves this stuff and who has listened to it for over 60 years, felt there performances were very stiff and unnatural.

I am not knocking training or classically trained musicians either.


Good luck.

DamagedTrax

did a lot of music lessons when i was younger. piano grades etc. i think its great to have and use what i learned back then quite a lot. chords, timings etc.

Aridstarling

I have some training, a good grounding you could call it. It helps every now and again in the studio (with other bands), and a good bit when writing. I don't think about the rules until I want to do something particular and then I generally know what will achieve that effect, i.e. a key change, harmonies, scales. Certainly lately as I've been trying to escape from the popular song format more and more, more towards "movements" or themes within songs as opposed to verses and choruses.

Ive been talking about teaching myself a bit of it for ages..Thats about it though..Id imagine its handy..

dav nagle

I think they key is to have both working for you. One who can compose and one who can talk enough rubbish that somwhere along the way it makes perfect sense, I am of the latter! In saying that I have a composer on board to make real orchestral music. Still though he always says it's my mouth that opens doors. I am gettig into advertsing and thats where big bucks are spent. I can make hip hop or rock while he can write strings. It is good to have an open mind and either way the door swings one can make it work for the other if the tannasity level is of an extremely potent value! See, there I go again :pac::pac:

JJV

As a young fella, playing in bands & the like, I felt that formal musical knowledge would somehow compromise my composing. That it would damage my "unique sonic vision."

Now several years down the line I can see that viewpoint for what it was - the stuck-up, naive opinion of youth. However, my point is that I meet a lot of students (ironically I now teach notation & sound engineering at diploma level) who have that same view. (Especially guitarists!) Formal notation seems to them to be terminally uncool & irrelevant to their music.

It's like saying "I'm going to write a novel, but I won't learn to write or read because that will corrupt my individuality."

Strange. Obviously my opinion now is that musical knowledge is musical power & I will never learn all that I wish to in this lifetime.

(BTW Anyone watch Goldie learning to write for orchestra. Second part is on BBC2 Friday at 21:00)

www.jjvernon.com

PaulBrewer

JJV wrote: »

As a young fella, playing in bands & the like, I felt that formal musical knowledge would somehow compromise my composing. That it would damage my "unique sonic vision."

Now several years down the line I can see that viewpoint for what it was - the stuck-up, naive opinion of youth. However, my point is that I meet a lot of students (ironically I now teach notation & sound engineering at diploma level) who have that same view. (Especially guitarists!) Formal notation seems to them to be terminally uncool & irrelevant to their music.

It's like saying "I'm going to write a novel, but I won't learn to write or read because that will corrupt my individuality."

Strange. Obviously my opinion now is that musical knowledge is musical power & I will never learn all that I wish to in this lifetime.

(BTW Anyone watch Goldie learning to write for orchestra. Second part is on BBC2 Friday at 21:00)

www.jjvernon.com

I agree - info doesn't hurt.

I saw a bit of Goldie, the bit where he was going to thrash the Joanna !

I saw Paul Morley's one , which was exactly as one would expect it to be - grasped the big concept - the details (the fact he nicked the riff!) didn't really matter!

Starfox

Im 24 now and ive only started to learn to play the piano, its never too late to start anything

iamhunted

ive been playing gigs for nearly 25 years but Ive no formal training at all. I cant say thats a good thing. Theres a great Mark Mothersbaugh interview online somewhere where he talks about training and the need for it in music.