Why N4 running alongside M4?

Random

Why is the N4 running alongside the M4? Should that part of the N4 not have been reclassified as R once the M4 was complete?

I've misunderstood something terribly haven't I ?

murphaph

I assume you're just looking at some rubbish map. The M4 IS the N4 with motorway regulations applied. You haven't misunderstood a thing

L1011

What your map shows as N4 is now R148.

AugustusMaximus

The old N4 sections are now the R148. Ignore what the maps or poor signage is telling you.

Random

Thanks.

Someone should tell Google Maps ... and my mate!

BrianD

I drove along the old N4 near Portlaoise. Alot of the old N4 signage is still up on the route.

L1011

BrianD wrote: »

I drove along the old N4 near Portlaoise. Alot of the old N4 signage is still up on the route.

That'd be the (former) N7, Brian!

AugustusMaximus

BrianD wrote: »

I drove along the old N4 near Portlaoise. Alot of the old N4 signage is still up on the route.

N8 signage is still up on the R639 around Cahir. Same story in a lot of places I'm afraid.

BrianD

MYOB wrote: »

That'd be the (former) N7, Brian!

That would be correct! :eek:I drove the N4/M4/M6 three times this weekend and the N7 once. Anyway the N7 signs are still up around the stretch I referred to. I preseume that has been redesignated an R route as well.

L1011

R445, for the past 12 years too!

SeanW

I believe some parts of the old N7 (where replaced by Motorways before circa 1985) have kept N7 designation. Ditto I think for parts of the N11 in Dublin County.

Edit: Google maps is deplorably inaccurate - it has the M1 from Dublin continuing as Motorway over the border, inaccurate N4 classifications between Kinnegad and Kilcock (at least) the N6 as dual carriageway between Athlone and Kinnegad, and a roundabout on the "N"6 just before the M4 merge.

And that's probably just for openers.:eek:

BTW Can someone clue me in as to why it's better to redesignate the old road an R when it's replaced by a Motorway, as opposed to the old practice, (and the U.K practice) of leaving the old road as-is?

AugustusMaximus

SeanW wrote: »

I believe some parts of the old N7 (where replaced by Motorways before circa 1985) have kept N7 designation. Ditto I think for parts of the N11 in Dublin County.

Edit: Google maps is deplorably inaccurate - it has the M1 from Dublin continuing as Motorway over the border, inaccurate N4 classifications between Kinnegad and Kilcock (at least) the N6 as dual carriageway between Athlone and Kinnegad, and a roundabout on the "N"6 just before the M4 merge.

And that's probably just for openers.:eek:

BTW Can someone clue me in as to why it's better to redesignate the old road an R when it's replaced by a Motorway, as opposed to the old practice, (and the U.K practice) of leaving the old road as-is?

Because under Irish law, motorways must be part of a national route and not a seperate route in themselves. This means that in law, the M1 is still the N1 etc etc. Hence this requires alloting the N route designation to the new stretch of motorway.

The problem with asigning an R route designation to the old road is that the speed limit automatically drops to 80kph and councilors in this country are too bloody lazy to pass the necessary legislation to raise the limit back to 100kph.

Stark

SeanW wrote: »

And that's probably just for openers.:eek:

Port Tunnel being designated as "Grace Park Road" says it all.

It took them years to mark the Fermoy Bypass as blue road despite opening as motorway from day one and it still says "N8" on it...

BluntGuy

Random wrote: »

Thanks.

Someone should tell Google Maps ... and my mate!

Google maps is atrocious.

I actually already e-mailed the AA (who use Google Maps for their route planner) two or three weeks ago, highlighting this and a whole lot of other problems.


They replied, thanked me and said they were expecting google maps to update "by next week".

Not only has that NOT happened, but I doubt an upgrade would fix the TOTALLY incorrect numbering of the SRR or incorrect labelling of J12 of the M4 as "J2".

For the AA to have to rely on such a shabby service is ridiculous.

Victor

SeanW wrote: »

BTW Can someone clue me in as to why it's better to redesignate the old road an R when it's replaced by a Motorway, as opposed to the old practice, (and the U.K practice) of leaving the old road as-is?

Funding. The NRA aren't interested in maintaining the old road once its been bypassed.

Chris_533976

Plus its an R road then, not under the control of the NRA but the local authorities who couldnt be bothered to do anything about it.

Edit: Also we dont need the British stupidity of the A1(M) designation. We really dont want an R622(M) or something like that in the future, even though the road nerds on here (and Sabre) would wet their pants over pictures of the signage

marmurr1916

Victor wrote: »

Funding. The NRA aren't interested in maintaining the old road once its been bypassed.

If the old roads were kept as national roads the NRA would be responsible for several hundred kilometres of national roads with very low traffic levels.

Not exactly financially sustainable.

The former A74 in Scotland (since bypassed by the M74/A&4 (M)) is now mainly B-roads.

On some stretches the road, in many parts a wide single-carriageway with hard shoulders, goes alongside the motorway.

It's almost deserted and it's possible to go faster than the motorway traffic on some sections.

murphaph

it's a bit different in the UK cos they actually invested in roads pre-motorway and many long stretches of very good standard A road (including many bypasses and dual carriageway sections) run alongside the motorways which largely replaced them, whereas until recently we invested practically zilch into our national roads (apart from routine maintenance) so most of them all travel directly through every town en-route to their destinations often along poor alignments and between narrow hedges etc.-not good to map these roads as if they were still as important as before (IMO, others may disagree).

My only gripe is that we have tolls and so it's now less obvious how to avoid the tolled sections.

icdg

SeanW wrote: »

I believe some parts of the old N7 (where replaced by Motorways before circa 1985) have kept N7 designation. Ditto I think for parts of the N11 in Dublin County.

Not now. But they originally did. The original legislation (the Local Government (Roads and Motorways) Act 1974) did not provide for the downgrading of the original route to regional road, because regional roads were not provided for in the legislation at all! The Act allowed for two new categories of road, national road and motorway and they were completely seperate.

Nonetheless, the Naas Bypass was designated M7 when it opened, thus beginning (what was at the time just a "convention") that the motorway took the route number of the national road it bypassed. The old road remained N7. Ditto when the Airport Motorway opened (old road remained N1) and the Shankill/Bray Bypass (old road remained N11). The M50 opened in 1990, but didn't bypass a national route. There is little signage remaining reflecting the old situation - it is a pity no-one took a picture of the Airport Roundabout (M1/R132 junction) before the construction of the Airport-Balbriggan scheme - the ADS for that would illustrate the point clearly (N1 was signed both for Santry and Swords).

The Roads Act 1993 introduced the present situation - it actually provides for a bypassed national route to become a local road, but it is normally redesignated a regional road at the time of opening instead.

The new situation caused a lot of misunderstanding when the M4 opened, the first motorway to open after the 1993 Act was commenced (in fact, just after the act was commenced). The old N4 was downgraded to R148 but most local politicians and media didn't understand this and continued to refer to it as the N4 for several years afterwards. It didn't help that until the Celbridge Interchange (M4 J2a at the time, now J6) opened, there was practically no intermediate signage on the R148 with that number on it, and the only place it appeared was at either end of the M4. It took years before signage was erected in Maynooth and Kilcock town centre and Leixlip town centre STILL (15 years later!) has no signage indicating the R148 (there are no directional signs at the R148/R149 junction).

Zoney

Regional roads are in most cases reasonably important and I think reclassifying the old N roads to R roads is the right course of action - they now provide much the same function as existing R roads, connecting town to town and serving regional traffic. Same goes for city roads, other major urban routes were R roads already before the fairly similar former N roads joined them.

In any case the NRA is to have responsibility for R roads in the future although it's not clear whether this will be an improvement or not.

marmurr1916

Zoney wrote: »

In any case the NRA is to have responsibility for R roads in the future although it's not clear whether this will be an improvement or not.

Well, it couldn't make things worse, could it?

ardmacha

it's a bit different in the UK cos they actually invested in roads pre-motorway and many long stretches of very good standard A road (including many bypasses and dual carriageway sections) run alongside the motorways which largely replaced them, whereas until recently we invested practically zilch into our national roads (apart from routine maintenance) so most of them all travel directly through every town en-route to their destinations often along poor alignments and between narrow hedges etc.-not good to map these roads as if they were still as important as before (IMO, others may disagree)

Can I be the one to disagree, there is always one! As Ireland had not planned motorways on most routes and as we had entered the motor age, there was significant investment in main routes which are now bypassed by motorways. We have built motorways when car ownership was already approaching its maximum level, rather than in anticipation of an increase in car ownership like other European countries building motorways in the 1950s, or even NI.

One failing in the present arrangement is that large towns are not quite on the national road network, as a motorway some distance away can subsuming the national road that formerly reached the town. It then becomes difficult to identify the main toad into the town as there are 2 or 3 regional roads connecting the motorway, all of apparent equal importance.

L1011

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Well, it couldn't make things worse, could it?

Compare the NRA's treatment of national secondaries to some counties regional roads. The R roads are usually better quality (but not in Galway).