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The Back Door

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  • 03-08-2009 8:56pm
    #1
    Daroxtar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,327 ✭✭✭


    I had an idea to revamp the qualifiers in favour of the weaker teams. Have negative seeding. Basically,the top 2 teams in each province based on their results over the last 3 years dont get a chance at the qualifiers. That way the weaker teams get a second chance that they deserve while the big boys have to put up or shut up. You'd end up with Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Galway, Tyrone, Armagh, Dublin and Kildare not getting 2 chances. The plus side for the big boys is they would be put at opposite sides of the draw in the provincials so they would get a theoretically easier run to the finals.

    The GAA made a monumental balls of things by stopping the Div 4 teams taking part in the qualifiers a couple of years ago. That was a slap in the face to the teams that the qualifiers were supposed to be there to help so they should correct that wrong by making sure that weaker counties get as much game time as possible and the big boys find things a bit tougher.

    A lot of people want the qualifiers scrapped but there have been some great success stories in the qualifiers, Sligo, Fermanagh and Wicklow to name the most obvious ones. Sligo would not have won the connacht title without the experience of the qualifiers from the previous couple of seasons. Sometimes these teams just need to get out of their provinces and away from the familiarity of losing to powerful neighbours to get the boost they need to help them on a bit.



    So, whats ye're views
    Tagged:


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    #2
    spongeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 554 ✭✭✭spongeman


    Being from Wicklow im not complaining with the qualifiers, but they should try and spread it out a a bit, 4 matches in four weeks is a lot.


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    #3
    noaces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭noaces


    Daroxtar wrote: »
    I had an idea to revamp the qualifiers in favour of the weaker teams. Have negative seeding. Basically,the top 2 teams in each province based on their results over the last 3 years dont get a chance at the qualifiers. That way the weaker teams get a second chance that they deserve while the big boys have to put up or shut up. You'd end up with Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Galway, Tyrone, Armagh, Dublin and Kildare not getting 2 chances. The plus side for the big boys is they would be put at opposite sides of the draw in the provincials so they would get a theoretically easier run to the finals.

    The GAA made a monumental balls of things by stopping the Div 4 teams taking part in the qualifiers a couple of years ago. That was a slap in the face to the teams that the qualifiers were supposed to be there to help so they should correct that wrong by making sure that weaker counties get as much game time as possible and the big boys find things a bit tougher.

    A lot of people want the qualifiers scrapped but there have been some great success stories in the qualifiers, Sligo, Fermanagh and Wicklow to name the most obvious ones. Sligo would not have won the connacht title without the experience of the qualifiers from the previous couple of seasons. Sometimes these teams just need to get out of their provinces and away from the familiarity of losing to powerful neighbours to get the boost they need to help them on a bit.



    So, whats ye're views



    Thats seriously retarded. Have you ever heard of the term level playing field. Teams should not get an advantage just because they are weaker!


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    #4
    Daroxtar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,327 ✭✭✭Daroxtar


    noaces wrote: »
    Thats seriously retarded. Have you ever heard of the term level playing field. Teams should not get an advantage just because they are weaker!


    Well the whole idea of the qualifiers was to help the weaker teams so thats what my idea entails. To level the playing field properly you'd have to scrap the Counties system and divide the country into catchment areas of equal population. My way is easier


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    #5
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    This thread isn't about what I thought it was at all. :D


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    #6
    noaces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭noaces


    Daroxtar wrote: »
    Well the whole idea of the qualifiers was to help the weaker teams so thats what my idea entails. To level the playing field properly you'd have to scrap the Counties system and divide the country into catchment areas of equal population. My way is easier

    That is where you are wrong my friend. The idea of the qualifiers was not to help the weaker teams, it is actually the opposite. Now if someone like Limerick beat Kerry they know they will most likely have to beat them again to win an All Ireland. The qualifiers help the better teams it allows them one bad game early in the year.


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    #7
    Daroxtar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,327 ✭✭✭Daroxtar


    noaces wrote: »
    That is where you are wrong my friend. The idea of the qualifiers was not to help the weaker teams, it is actually the opposite. Now if someone like Limerick beat Kerry they know they will most likely have to beat them again to win an All Ireland. The qualifiers help the better teams it allows them one bad game early in the year.


    You're confusing theory and practise. The idea of the qualifiers was to give the weaker teams a second chance. Thats the theory, it just turned out different in practise. By stopping the stronger teams from having the qualifiers to fall back on you keep them on their toes while it gives the weaker teams the extra games needed to bring them on


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    #8
    noaces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭noaces


    Daroxtar wrote: »
    You're confusing theory and practise. The idea of the qualifiers was to give the weaker teams a second chance. Thats the theory, it just turned out different in practise. By stopping the stronger teams from having the qualifiers to fall back on you keep them on their toes while it gives the weaker teams the extra games needed to bring them on

    Yea but you cant have one rule for one county and another rule for the next county that would make a mockery of the championship. At the end of the day the all ireland champions should be the best football team not a team that benefited from a beneficial system such as your idea. The weaker counties just have to get better.


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    #9
    Daroxtar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,327 ✭✭✭Daroxtar


    noaces wrote: »
    Yea but you cant have one rule for one county and another rule for the next county that would make a mockery of the championship. At the end of the day the all ireland champions should be the best football team not a team that benefited from a beneficial system such as your idea. The weaker counties just have to get better.


    I agree wholeheartedly with you on that. However i do think that the extra games for the weaker counties do them no harm, only good. Like i said in the OP the likes of wicklow, sligo and fermanagh have definately improved because of the qualifiers. None of them are going to win an all ireland right now but thanks to the confidence gained in the qualifiers they might be edgeing closer to provincial titles (sligo already got theirs).


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    #10
    WinstonSmith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭WinstonSmith


    noaces wrote: »
    That is where you are wrong my friend. The idea of the qualifiers was not to help the weaker teams, it is actually the opposite. Now if someone like Limerick beat Kerry they know they will most likely have to beat them again to win an All Ireland. The qualifiers help the better teams it allows them one bad game early in the year.

    Whilst this is true and the Qualifiers do undoubtedly help the stronger teams, they were brought in with the express aim of helping the weaker teams progress. One of the main goals was that all teams train for several months and do no deserve to have these several months of hard slog destroyed in seventy minutes football. This goal was certainly achieved, but we can easily see now with the benefit of hindsight that there are other larger problems being created, such as the creation of gulfs in class. there are now almost tiers of football as in Hurling and this is a sad reflection of the state of things. The top tier consists probably of Kerry, tyrone and Cork, with the second tier probably comprising, Mayo, Kildare, Dublin, etc... One team will always be better than another, but the weaker counties deserve to have the chance to improve, whilst the stronger counties should be allowed to deteriorate at a natural rate. Since the introduction of Back Door, we have, generally speaking, not seen a large amount of weaker counties evolving as the generations pass to become better and the stronger counties becoming weaker. the strong counties have remained strong and the weak counties, by and large, remained weak. The best teams at the introduction of the Back Door system were Tyrone, Armagh, Cork and Kerry. Ten years later, three of these four teams remain as the best teams in the country because they have been given an unfair advantage. In hindisght, one can see that whilst the Qualifiers was a good idea, it needs to be tweaked to match the problems that we can now see with the championship.


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    #11
    noaces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭noaces


    Daroxtar wrote: »
    I agree wholeheartedly with you on that. However i do think that the extra games for the weaker counties do them no harm, only good. Like i said in the OP the likes of wicklow, sligo and fermanagh have definately improved because of the qualifiers. None of them are going to win an all ireland right now but thanks to the confidence gained in the qualifiers they might be edgeing closer to provincial titles (sligo already got theirs).

    OK I see your point. The weaker teams do need more competitive games in Summer. I just don't see how this can be done without ruining the Championship.


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    #12
    Daroxtar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,327 ✭✭✭Daroxtar


    WinstonSmith wrote: »
    Whilst this is true and the Qualifiers do undoubtedly help the stronger teams, they were brought in with the express aim of helping the weaker teams progress. One of the main goals was that all teams train for several months and do no deserve to have these several months of hard slog destroyed in seventy minutes football. This goal was certainly achieved, but we can easily see now with the benefit of hindsight that there are other larger problems being created, such as the creation of gulfs in class. there are now almost tiers of football as in Hurling and this is a sad reflection of the state of things. The top tier consists probably of Kerry, tyrone and Cork, with the second tier probably comprising, Mayo, Kildare, Dublin, etc... One team will always be better than another, but the weaker counties deserve to have the chance to improve, whilst the stronger counties should be allowed to deteriorate at a natural rate. Since the introduction of Back Door, we have, generally speaking, not seen a large amount of weaker counties evolving as the generations pass to become better and the stronger counties becoming weaker. the strong counties have remained strong and the weak counties, by and large, remained weak. The best teams at the introduction of the Back Door system were Tyrone, Armagh, Cork and Kerry. Ten years later, three of these four teams remain as the best teams in the country because they have been given an unfair advantage. In hindisght, one can see that whilst the Qualifiers was a good idea, it needs to be tweaked to match the problems that we can now see with the championship.

    +1 on the post.
    So what do think of my tweak?


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    #13
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    The problem with the Qualifiers is simple, it regards each provincial championship as equal. So Clare play and lose one match, the Munster SF and go into the second round, the same as teams in Leinster and Ulster, who may have played 3 matches to get to that stage.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #14
    equivariant
    Registered Users Posts: 966 ✭✭✭equivariant


    WinstonSmith wrote: »
    Whilst this is true and the Qualifiers do undoubtedly help the stronger teams, they were brought in with the express aim of helping the weaker teams progress. One of the main goals was that all teams train for several months and do no deserve to have these several months of hard slog destroyed in seventy minutes football. This goal was certainly achieved, but we can easily see now with the benefit of hindsight that there are other larger problems being created, such as the creation of gulfs in class. there are now almost tiers of football as in Hurling and this is a sad reflection of the state of things. The top tier consists probably of Kerry, tyrone and Cork, with the second tier probably comprising, Mayo, Kildare, Dublin, etc... One team will always be better than another, but the weaker counties deserve to have the chance to improve, whilst the stronger counties should be allowed to deteriorate at a natural rate. Since the introduction of Back Door, we have, generally speaking, not seen a large amount of weaker counties evolving as the generations pass to become better and the stronger counties becoming weaker. the strong counties have remained strong and the weak counties, by and large, remained weak. The best teams at the introduction of the Back Door system were Tyrone, Armagh, Cork and Kerry. Ten years later, three of these four teams remain as the best teams in the country because they have been given an unfair advantage. In hindisght, one can see that whilst the Qualifiers was a good idea, it needs to be tweaked to match the problems that we can now see with the championship.

    This is all rubbish. For a start the best team in the country at the start of the qualifier system was none of the four that you mention. Check your facts. Who was the first county to win a football all-Ireland through the back door?

    Apart from that, the whole argument about whether the qualifier system helps or hinders the so called weaker counties is rubbish. It doesn't make it any easier or harder for anybody to win the all-Ireland. At the end of the championship there is still only one winner. Therefore it is exactly as hard or as easy as it ever was to win an all Ireland. The weaker counties are weak not because of the championship format. They are weak because either they don't have the population or they don't have good development and coaching structures. A classic example is Fermanagh. A few years ago they were in an AI semi. This was supposed to be a textbook case for the backdoor sysytem helping a weaker county improve - yet nothing happenend - they are still crap and have no prospect of reall success any time soon. So for every Sligo who apparently use the qualifier system to improve, there is a Fermanagh who have a good run and then disappear back where they came from.

    If the GAA seriously wants to spread success around the country, they will have to do something really radical that addresses the inbuilt bias of the county system. When a county with the population of Cork competes in the same competition as Leitrim, how can it ever be fair?

    In fact, I think it is the great irony of the GAA that an organisation that historically has been so nationalistic and republican clings so fervently to a county system that was foisted upon us by the English occupiers


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    #15
    WinstonSmith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭WinstonSmith


    equivariant wrote: »
    This is all rubbish. For a start the best team in the country at the start of the qualifier system was none of the four that you mention. Check your facts. Who was the first county to win a football all-Ireland through the back door?

    I agree there have been anomolies but just look at the list of winners since they were introduced and you will realise that the same 3/4 teams have been there. Galway, Armagh, Tyrone, kerry, Tyrone, Kerry, Kerry, Tyrone in that order. Are any of the teams repeated? As you say facts speak for themselves.
    equivariant wrote: »
    Apart from that, the whole argument about whether the qualifier system helps or hinders the so called weaker counties is rubbish. It doesn't make it any easier or harder for anybody to win the all-Ireland. At the end of the championship there is still only one winner. Therefore it is exactly as hard or as easy as it ever was to win an all Ireland. The weaker counties are weak not because of the championship format.
    Ok, whilst you're entitled to your opinion, you offer no evidence to support it, which leads me to think it wrong. You are correct, there is still one winner at the end of the championship, but if we look back over the roll of honour, one will see that not since the late seventies has the All-Ireland been shared between two teams for six years in a row. so 2 different winners in 6 years compared with the previous decade of 8 different winners in 9years, or the decade before when 5 different teams won it and this number is lower because the great Kerry team decided to smash records and win All-Irelands all round the place. Facts speak for themselves and you can't deny that there are now less teams challenging for the AI.
    equivariant wrote: »
    They are weak because either they don't have the population or they don't have good development and coaching structures. A classic example is Fermanagh. A few years ago they were in an AI semi. This was supposed to be a textbook case for the backdoor sysytem helping a weaker county improve - yet nothing happenend - they are still crap and have no prospect of reall success any time soon. So for every Sligo who apparently use the qualifier system to improve, there is a Fermanagh who have a good run and then disappear back where they came from.
    This just reinforces my point. Counties may get a lucky run and succeed in showing that one of the original aims of the QS (to give counties more than just 70 minutes in return for months of slog) was a success, but in the end it is a one off because the weaker teams eventually evaporate against the continued success of the strongest teams. This original aim was a success, but we must make use of the resources at our disposal. We now have the resource of hindsight and must use it to evolve the QS into something more beneficial for the weaker teams so that the advantage currently suiting the stronger teams is removed.
    equivariant wrote: »
    If the GAA seriously wants to spread success around the country, they will have to do something really radical that addresses the inbuilt bias of the county system. When a county with the population of Cork competes in the same competition as Leitrim, how can it ever be fair?

    In fact, I think it is the great irony of the GAA that an organisation that historically has been so nationalistic and republican clings so fervently to a county system that was foisted upon us by the English occupiers

    I will not defend traditions but I can never imagine a GAA without a provincial championship. Imagine the uproar there would be if you attempted to take the Munster Hurling final out of Thurles, or the Connaucht final away. People would not stand for it. Realistic changes must be made.


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    #16
    CyberDave
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭CyberDave


    Finishing positions on the League tables should also be used in some way to link League and Championship, giving more importance to the league.


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    #17
    Poulgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Poulgorm


    I think the qualifiers are a great idea. Before this, a team could play the first round in May and, if beaten, would not have an inter county game again until the league in October. This is no good for the weaker counties.

    Watch how Wicklow will do in the league, after their championship run. Bet they will win promotion.

    The only variation I would consider introducing is that the qualifiers should be confined to the provinces. I.E one unbeaten team would go straight through to the provincial final. A qualifier system (within the province) would determine who their opponents in the provincial final would be. The all Ireland would then be between the 4 provincial winners.

    The provincial finals would mean something then


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    #18
    rossie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 11,342 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    Poulgorm wrote: »
    I think the qualifiers are a great idea. Before this, a team could play the first round in May and, if beaten, would not have an inter county game again until the league in October. This is no good for the weaker counties.

    Watch how Wicklow will do in the league, after their championship run. Bet they will win promotion.

    maybe, maybe not, wexford didn't do to well in the league after their run in the all-ireland last year, league and championship are two different competitions completely, its rare that there is correlation between the two, about 4 years back roscommon beat tyrone, kerry and dublin in division 1 and finished top of the league, got hammered in their first connaught match then, i remember down being in total disarray in the league in the winter of 1993 and yet winning the all-ireland a few months later


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    #19
    homerjay2005
    Registered Users Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    CyberDave wrote: »
    Finishing positions on the League tables should also be used in some way to link League and Championship, giving more importance to the league.

    wouldnt really work, they tried it with division 4 and was a disaster going on this years performances of some of the "weaker" teams.


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    #20
    DonkeyPokerTour
    Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭DonkeyPokerTour


    noaces wrote: »
    Yea but you cant have one rule for one county and another rule for the next county that would make a mockery of the championship.

    You can and did. For the last 2 years Division 4 teams were forced to play the tommy murphy cup instead of qualifiers. So where's the difference between this suggestion and that system? Only that it effects the strong county's rather than the week ones!

    Without a doubt Wicklow benifited from a kind draw in the Qualifiers, and we all had a great summer as a result. I'm not convinced that the OP's suggestion would work but at least its a suggestion. Alot of people are rubbishing his suggestion without comming up with suggestions of their own. I personally have thought about it for a while and cannot come up with a fair system for it. My only thought was a 3 way round robbin between Kilkenny, London and New York for the 32nd spot and then an open draw with complete double elimination, but that gives the problem of a potential double all ireland final (for those who dont know how double elimination works, you must lose twice to be eliminated, hence the team that reaches the final without losing, plays the team that reached the final having lost. If the team with one loss beat the team with no loss then a replay would take place).

    Also people mentioning population as a factor, I call BS. Take your own county championship, in my case wicklow, if you go by population only, then Bray, Wicklow, Arklow and Greystones should win every championship every year! Bray and Wicklow are in the mix, Arklow are struggling as a senior team and Greystones are only intermediate. Then a small village wins 9 championships in 10years. Population does not matter. Why are Kilkenny so good at hurling? Because there practically born with a Hurley in hand. In other county's this doesn't happen.

    I agree that fundamentally the best teams will come to the top in what ever format is used but I'd like to see a system where the provincial winners get a second chance, the problem with that is, how do you achieve this without giving another team a "third chance". You'd need to add the provincial winners to the qualifiers at the stage when there are 12teams left. It would take some working.

    Regards
    Ian


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    #21
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    for the football:
    what i would like to see done is an open draw championship after the provincial championships have been played. with the provincial champions to receive some sort of seeding in the draw, maybe home advantage for a couple of games??. something similiar to the FA cup where united and liverpool come in later into it. this i feel would still maintain the provincial championships (which i would hate to see go, traditionalist at heart :)) with a degree of importance and it would also mean a level playing field competing for sam, save for the deserving provincial champs. at present i dont think its fair with different counties having to play more or less games in their province compared to others. also no back- door, straight knock out - get the bite back into all championship matches. league champions could also get a seeding too come to think of it, boost its importance.

    i havent completely thought this through, any views on this?:)


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    #22
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    aDeener wrote: »
    for the football:
    what i would like to see done is an open draw championship after the provincial championships have been played. with the provincial champions to receive some sort of seeding in the draw, maybe home advantage for a couple of games??. something similiar to the FA cup where united and liverpool come in later into it. this i feel would still maintain the provincial championships (which i would hate to see go, traditionalist at heart :)) with a degree of importance and it would also mean a level playing field competing for sam, save for the deserving provincial champs. at present i dont think its fair with different counties having to play more or less games in their province compared to others. also no back- door, straight knock out - get the bite back into all championship matches. league champions could also get a seeding too come to think of it, boost its importance.

    i havent completely thought this through, any views on this?:)
    You have got some good ideas there alright. It would be a good idea to seed the 4 provincial champions. The system does need to get some kind of tweaking but we cannot go back to the old days of a team getting knocked out first round and that being it until the next year.


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    #23
    hurling_lad
    Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭hurling_lad


    Daroxtar wrote: »
    I had an idea to revamp the qualifiers in favour of the weaker teams. Have negative seeding. Basically,the top 2 teams in each province based on their results over the last 3 years dont get a chance at the qualifiers. That way the weaker teams get a second chance that they deserve while the big boys have to put up or shut up. You'd end up with Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Galway, Tyrone, Armagh, Dublin and Kildare not getting 2 chances. The plus side for the big boys is they would be put at opposite sides of the draw in the provincials so they would get a theoretically easier run to the finals.

    The GAA made a monumental balls of things by stopping the Div 4 teams taking part in the qualifiers a couple of years ago. That was a slap in the face to the teams that the qualifiers were supposed to be there to help so they should correct that wrong by making sure that weaker counties get as much game time as possible and the big boys find things a bit tougher.

    A lot of people want the qualifiers scrapped but there have been some great success stories in the qualifiers, Sligo, Fermanagh and Wicklow to name the most obvious ones. Sligo would not have won the connacht title without the experience of the qualifiers from the previous couple of seasons. Sometimes these teams just need to get out of their provinces and away from the familiarity of losing to powerful neighbours to get the boost they need to help them on a bit.



    So, whats ye're views

    This would mean that in Munster and Connaught, if, say, Kerry and Galway had a run of beating Cork and Mayo for a few years in a row - this has happened several times, as has the reverse - then Cork and Mayo would find themselves back in the bad old days (as Cork experienced, anyway) of playing (and losing) only one decent game every year.

    You are essentially putting forward a handicapping system, which seems designed to stop the best teams getting to the final stages of the championship.

    As for the 'unintended consequences' of the back-door system that have been mentioned, I don't think that the system was ever intended to stop the strongest teams from getting to the final stages, as it seems some people would favour.


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    #24
    blackbelt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭blackbelt


    We would have to look at who the back door is benefitting.While it is great to see the likes of Wicklow,Kildare,Meath,Roscommon and Donegal having a run and prolonging their summer,the qualifier system has been abused by the likes of Tyrone and Kerry.

    Tyrone won Sam in 2003,2005 and 2008 via the back-door.Kerry won Sam in2006 via the back door and got to a final in 2002 and 2008 via the backdoor.This year they can get to a final through the back-door again.I think it would be great to introduce a system where a team has a certain quota of chances to be in the qualifiers.

    If a team enters the qualifiers one year,they wouldn't be eligible for them the next year.That would be a level playing field for weak and strong counties and make the provincial games mean more.


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    #25
    Tomthepost
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭Tomthepost


    blackbelt wrote: »
    We would have to look at who the back door is benefitting.While it is great to see the likes of Wicklow,Kildare,Meath,Roscommon and Donegal having a run and prolonging their summer,the qualifier system has been abused by the likes of Tyrone and Kerry.

    Tyrone won Sam in 2003,2005 and 2008 via the back-door.Kerry won Sam in2006 via the back door and got to a final in 2002 and 2008 via the backdoor.This year they can get to a final through the back-door again.I think it would be great to introduce a system where a team has a certain quota of chances to be in the qualifiers.

    If a team enters the qualifiers one year,they wouldn't be eligible for them the next year.That would be a level playing field for weak and strong counties and make the provincial games mean more.

    Would you have bothered with this today if the score had been different?
    Back door means that the 3 best teams in All-Ireland have reached the semi-final. Is that not what is best for the GAA.


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    #26
    FatherTed
    Registered Users Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭FatherTed


    For Football:

    8 groups of 4, seeded based on the previous year's results, play home and away, 6 matches, 1 every 2 weeks starting early/mid May. Top team in each group advance to the quarters.

    Based on this years results:
    Pool 1: Tyrone, Cork, Dublin, Mayo, Meath, Donegal, Kildare, Kerry
    Pool 2: Galway, Limerick, Antrim, Wicklow, Roscommon, Down, Derry, Sligo
    Pool 3: Monaghan, Wexford, Tipperary, Longford, Clare, Westmeath, Cavan, Laois
    Pool 4: Offaly, Carlow, Armagh, Waterford, Fermanagh, Louth, London, Leitrim

    Hurling:
    4 groups of 4, seeded based on the previous year's results, play home and away, 6 matches, 1 every 2 weeks starting early/mid May. Top 2 teams in each group advance to the quarters.

    Pool 1: Kilkenny, Tipperary, Waterford, Limerick
    Pool 2: Galway, Dublin, Laois, Cork
    Pool 3: Clare, Wexford, Offaly, Antrim
    Pool 4: Carlow, Kerry, Mayo, Down

    The bottom 4 teams play off to fight relegation to Christy Ring, 2 go down and CR finalists are promoted.


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