Pharmacy's- who's side are you on?

greengreen

I have heard some pharmacists on the radio claiming to have public support but i don't know anyone personally who supports them. Why do we have to pay the twice -once as a dispensing fee and then the mark up that they have as well. It seems very unfair. Any thoughts?

dennistuam

the probelm with the pharmacys is the gang that bought or set up pharmacys in the last 5 years gave to much for them
it seems they are sold among themselves no competition
big probelm for mayo chemist is that they bought shops in mainly dublin for siblings and now they are feeling the pinch

Seamonster

I have to say I am on the side of the chemist. I thought it was a very cheap move by the HSE to publish the names of chemist's who were supposed to be distributing, even though they were not. Most chemists wrote to the HSE to be excluded from the programme, so the HSE knew who was distributing and who was not. From what I can see, it was as if the HSE printed the names on purpose, knowing the people would visit the chemist's, be informed they were not getting medicine and cause the chemists grief. Also, what going to happen to 1000's of gear heads who can't get methadone? That won't be pretty.......

clarecoco

The chemists have been asked to take a cut on their fees. The HSE say it is 24% cut - the pharmacy union say the reduction is closer to 34%. Which should we believe? We are in a recession with almost everybody taking a cut in income why should pharmacies be any different? I agree with the reduction.

The pharmacy union is scaremongering and using the customer and particularly the elderly as pawns in the dispute in order to justify not taking a cut in fees in these difficult times. They seem to think they should be treated differently to the rest of us.

It appears some pharmacies sat on both sides of the fence - first terminating the contract and then withdrawing the termination. Pharmacies should put a Notice on their shop window stating whether they are in or out - that is clearly state they are providing services under they state drugs scheme or not. The pharmacist in a local town (who is not on the list and had withdrawn from the scheme) said as late as last Friday "It is all up in the air we do not know what is happening". This is mealy mouthed sh***. The customer should be told who is in or out and the union should stop the misleading propaganda which is upsetting the vulnerable.

anieoh

the problem that the pharmacists have is that the hse is forcing these cuts without any discussion with the pharmacists or their union. pharmacists have been asking for discussion since june,but to dat have not gotten a reply to their official request from the hse. pharmacists are willing to take a cut, its the magnitude of the cut and the lack of discussion and communication from the hse that is in dispute. doctors and dentists have been asked to take an 8% cut, while pharmacists are being cut by over a third without any discussion. pharmacists have also submitted proposals to the hse over the years detailing ways to save money in the state drug bill-generics etc but these have all been ignored by the hse

gamblor1975

I have had some time to look at this from a few different sides. I believe a cut in the money we pay for our drugs is needed. I do not believe the IPU have any interest in doing this.

Irish pharmacies have had it too easy for too long. No competition as such..I think the whole industry needs to be deregulated to a certain extent. Generic drugs should be used where possible and there should be much more available OTC.

Letting the NI pharmacists compete with the rest should help with competition part. It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming weeks.

clarecoco

The figure from the HSE indicate that about 1,000 pharmacies are still dispensing under HSE contract. It seems to me (without getting tied up in knots in who is in or out) that only a couple of hundred have withdrawn. The main pocket of withdrawals in the North and West coastal region. The majority have remained in so they have accepted the reduction in fees.

This will all settle down after a couple of weeks and the taxpayer (which is all of us) will save half a billion in pharmacy fees per year. The public will be slow to forgive the chemists that stayed out and I expect there will be a large loss of business. When medical card holders and clients under other state medical schemes change they will be slow to return to a pharmacist who are perceived as causing a problem. I think like all the other workers who did not get agreed pay increases and took a reduction in salary it is time for pharmacies to grin and bear it - cut the losses before it gets worse. The HSE may not let the Pharmacies that withdrew vback into the scheme if customers have a reasonable alternative.

bleg

clarecoco wrote: »

The figure from the HSE indicate that about 1,000 pharmacies are still dispensing under HSE contract. It seems to me (without getting tied up in knots in who is in or out) that only a couple of hundred have withdrawn. The main pocket of withdrawals in the North and West coastal region. The majority have remained in so they have accepted the reduction in fees.

More than a couple of hundred have withdrawn. A recent survey of the pharmacists all over the country (the ones on the ground and know who is in or out) would estimate the figure at around 1050.


Ring the HSE helpline. Ask about Waterford city. They'll tell you 1 is open for the whole city.

clarecoco wrote: »

This will all settle down after a couple of weeks and the taxpayer (which is all of us) will save half a billion in pharmacy fees per year.

Can I get a source for this please? The HSE freely admit (and tell us in every press release) it would be about 133m a year in savings. I just want to know where you're getting your figures from. I think you might be plucking them out of the air but I'd love to see a source please.

Also, I think people know who pays the taxes...

clarecoco wrote: »

The public will be slow to forgive the chemists that stayed out and I expect there will be a large loss of business. When medical card holders and clients under other state medical schemes change they will be slow to return to a pharmacist who are perceived as causing a problem.

Possibly. More than likely they will return to the pharmacy they used to go to if this gets sorted. People are creatures of habits and if a pharmacy is run by a good businessperson the patients will have the whole (untenable) situation explained to them by their pharmacist.

clarecoco wrote: »

I think like all the other workers who did not get agreed pay increases and took a reduction in salary it is time for pharmacies to grin and bear it - cut the losses before it gets worse. The HSE may not let the Pharmacies that withdrew vback into the scheme if customers have a reasonable alternative.

Pharmacists have agreed to take a cut in their fees of 8%, the same as Doctors, Nurses, Dentists and other health professionals. They have also campaigned for years for more economic use of medicines in Ireland, even during the Celtic Tiger years when they were completely ignored.

The Minister has not imposed any cuts on the wholesalers who deliver drugs to pharmacies nor has she given any indication that she would be inclined to renegotiate the contract with the drug manufacturers upon which the cost of medicines is set.

bleg

clarecoco wrote: »

There seems to be scaremongering by pharmacy union spokespersons and the customer (particularly the elderly) are being used as pawns in the dispute in order to justify not taking a cut in fees in these difficult times. We are in a recession with almost everybody taking a cut in income. Why should pharmacists be any different?

But sure the HSE have the whole situation under control, and there's no problem sorting out medicines so how are any patients being used as pawns?

I haven't heard ANY union spokesperson saying that elderly people will be directly affected by the cuts. Perhaps you could post a source/news item.

The IPU have actually been very keen to keep the dispute between themselves and the HSE and have been careful not to put patients in the middle.

clarecoco wrote: »

Prescription drugs will bring customers to the chemists shop where s/he then has the opportunity to sell them other items with a much larger markup, in much the way newsagents use lotto customers to boost their overall sales.

Are you really saying that sales of shampoo should subsidise medications? If I'm a pharmacy owner I know where I'll be focussing my attention in such situation and it wouldn't be the dispensary. Do you think that pharmacists should be more concerned with making an OTC sale rather than on your (potentially life threatening) medicine. I know I wouldn't.

clarecoco wrote: »

With regard to lists it appears some pharmacies sat on both sides of the fence - first terminating the contract and then withdrawing the termination. Pharmacies should put a Notice on their shop window stating whether they are in or out - that is clearly state they are providing services under they state drugs scheme or not. The union should stop any misleading propaganda which is upsetting the vulnerable. This will quickly sort this out – it does not take a rocket scientist to come up with this solution

Agreed. Pharmacies not participating in the schemes should shut up shop, shutters down and give their staff a weeks holidays!!

The HSE should also publish an accurate list about where patients can access their medication. The list they have up is woefully inaccurate. They should also cease releasing misleading press releases which claim 1100 pharmacies are open for business as usual. They should also cease from saying that hundreds of pharmacies are rescinding their termination which is just a plain, bare faced lie.

clarecoco

I will give an example of my experience with a chemist this morning.

I have been on the phone to the the Pharmacy, Church Street, Kilmihil, Co. Clare because my mother needs medication as her normal chemist has withdrawn from the HSE contract. I spoke to the chemist. This Kilmihil Pharmacy is on the HSE list. I asked if she would dispense medicines under the medical card scheme. She replied if I was not a previous customer the answer is "No". I said she was on the HSE list and had not withdrawn the contract. She said there was a legal technicality as she had given a "Notice to withdraw" rather than the letter of withdrawal required. My understanding from my conversation was that the chemist is dispensing to previous customers and not taking on new ones.

I had earlier checked with the HSE helpline (1850 241850) on this issue and was informed the contract does not allow a Pharmacy to discriminate against customers. I told the chemist this and said "She was either in or out of the contract and should not be trying to sit on both sides of the fence". I informed her I was making a complaint on the issue based on the refusal to dispense to a Medical Card holder. This Pharmacy like many others needs to make up it's mind on it's position.

Another issue arose with information being given by other Pharmacies who are stating they have withdrawn from the contract and are charging Medical Card holders for the medicines stating the customer can claim a refund from the HSE. The HSE Helpline said this information is incorrect that Medical Card holders cannot individually claim back for medicines paid for. The old and vulnerable are being victimised by a PHARMACIST who gives out this type of information.

bleg

clarecoco wrote: »

I will give an example of my experience with a chemist this morning.

I have been on the phone to the the Pharmacy, Church Street, Kilmihil, Co. Clare because my mother needs medication as her normal chemist has withdrawn from the HSE contract. I spoke to the chemist. This Kilmihil Pharmacy is on the HSE list. I asked if she would dispense medicines under the medical card scheme. She replied if I was not a previous customer the answer is "No". I said she was on the HSE list and had not withdrawn the contract. She said there was a legal technicality as she had given a "Notice to withdraw" rather than the letter of withdrawal required. My understanding from my conversation was that the chemist is dispensing to previous customers and not taking on new ones.

I had earlier checked with the HSE helpline (1850 241850) on this issue and was informed the contract does not allow a Pharmacy to discriminate against customers. I told the chemist this and said "She was either in or out of the contract and should not be trying to sit on both sides of the fence". I informed her I was making a complaint on the issue based on the refusal to dispense to a Medical Card holder. This Pharmacy like many others needs to make up it's mind on it's position.

Another issue arose with information being given by other Pharmacies who are stating they have withdrawn from the contract and are charging Medical Card holders for the medicines stating the customer can claim a refund from the HSE. The HSE Helpline said this information is incorrect that Medical Card holders cannot individually claim back for medicines paid for. The old and vulnerable are being victimised by a PHARMACIST who gives out this type of information.

It's a pity that you have had such a hard time trying to get medication. By making a complaint against the individual pharmacy you have chosen the correct course of action. I hope that the actions of a single member of the profession will not cloud your judgement of the whole pharmacy community however.

You should also report the other pharmacies you refer to that are charging medical card holders and advising customers they can claim a refund. Better still post the name, address and telephone number of the pharmacies you claim to be doing this on boards.ie so that people can avoid them. I'll even offer to ring them up and set the record straight for them.

nayorleck114

All pharmacies closed in Ballina today. To be honest its a joke. Not taking sides, But I have yet to see a poor pharmacist.

clarecoco

bleg wrote: »

.

The Pharmacists as a group by taking the action to not dispense in certain areas have selectively targeted the medical card holders who live in that area. These are the sick and vulnerable patients of a certain income level and age who require medicine and are caught in the middle.

Do you think that pharmacists should be more concerned with making an OTC sale rather than on your (potentially life threatening) medicine

.
Pharmacists that have withdrawn from the scheme have made their point on the core set of personal values held. Irrespective of the idealist official position publicly espoused there is no interest in dispensing medicine to the vulnerable medical card holders if the profit margin is hit.

Agreed. Pharmacies not participating in the schemes should shut up shop, shutters down and give their staff a weeks holidays!!

My point was clear on this but you chose to take a different meaning. Pharmacies should put a Notice on their shop window clearly stating whether they are providing services under they state drugs scheme or not. This would clarify all the issues in relation to lists. The Pharmacy Union is stating the list is inaccurate but will not publish it's version. I can understand why - as it has now become clear that many Pharmacists are playing both sides and it is very easy to blame the HSE.

bleg

clarecoco wrote: »

The Pharmacists as a group by taking the action to not dispense in certain areas have selectively targeted the medical card holders who live in that area. These are the sick and vulnerable patients of a certain income level and age who require medicine and are caught in the middle.

They have pulled out from all Community Drug Schemes including the GMS (Medical Card), Drug payment scheme (DPS) and the Long Term Illness (LTI) scheme. I don't know what you mean when you say that they have selectively targeted medical card holders. They haven't targeted anybody. They were given a new contract which reduced their pay by 24% according to the HSE, 34% according to Pricewaterhouse Cooper. Some of them refused this contract and gave 30 days notice as they were legally obliged. The HSE (who's responsibility it is to provide drugs under the Community Drug Scheme) had 30 days to put in place an adequate contingency plan to ensure that every patient gets their medication without undue expense or delay. They have not done this.

clarecoco wrote: »

Pharmacists that have withdrawn from the scheme have made their point on the core set of personal values held. Irrespective of the idealist official position publicly espoused there is no interest in dispensing medicine to the vulnerable medical card holders if the profit margin is hit.

It was barely viable before the hits came in and was subsidised in quite a significant degree by the markup on the items sold under the Drug Payment Scheme. This markup is 50% and the Minister wants to reduce it to 20%. Medication dispensed under the Drug Payment scheme equates to roughly 25% of all pharmacies' trade. So you can appreciate the high impact this will have. Some pharmacists cannot afford to take the hit, some can. The ones that cannot have pulled out of the scheme.

clarecoco wrote: »

My point was clear on this but you chose to take a different meaning. Pharmacies should put a Notice on their shop window clearly stating whether they are providing services under they state drugs scheme or not. This would clarify all the issues in relation to lists. The Pharmacy Union is stating the list is inaccurate but will not publish it's version. I can understand why - as it has now become clear that many Pharmacists are playing both sides and it is very easy to blame the HSE.

The IPU had a list published on their website. The Competition Authority instructed them to take it down.

Also any pharmacy I have seen has had such a notice on their window. My local pharmacy also took the time to explain to their patients that they will not be taking part in the community drug schemes.

Whatshisname

Pure greed as far as the pharmacists are concerned, and severely bad organisation on behalf of the HSE.

Ilovelucy

Greed is a very powerful tool. I hope the HSE don't back down. It's about time someone had a back bone in this country.

bleg

Dr. Maurice Nelligan's views on the subject, split into 2 parts. Definitely worth a listen for anybody interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaoqAJkViYE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddqueDEX3q8

lg123

Ilovelucy wrote: »

Greed is a very powerful tool. I hope the HSE don't back down. It's about time someone had a back bone in this country.

+1

nuac

Have some sympathy for the individual pharmacist, but there seem to be chains of pharmacies ( when did we stop calling them chemists? ) and there were some very big deals involving pharmacies. There seems to be lots of money in that profession.

There has been a substantial increase in the number of prescriptions in recent years. The taxpayer who is paying substanial amounts to the pharmacy trade is entitled to seek reductions. Was never keen on the PD's but on this one, would support Harney.

nayorleck114

I have not medical card, I do support the Pharmacies, but they are playing dirty now, All of them were closed in Ballina this week, They are using people as pawns in their game. To be honest I have yet to meet a poor pharmacist. If they don't want to dispense for HSE then don't. But don't make the non medical card user suffer.

clarecoco

Senan Moloney in today’s Irish Independent (8 Aug 09) has a very strong attack on the Pharmacists titled "Harney will rout the selfish pharmacists in this just war". Some quotes:
Tanaiste Mary Coughlan is 100pc correct when she names pharmacists among the gilded elite of professionals who have yet to fill the chill winds of recession let alone respond. ………………… they were breathtakingly squeezing every penny from the state milking the Exchequer hand over fist for drugs dispensed to medical card holders………………………………..
This time, the state must win, and Mary Harney has her tin hat on – with very good signs that crushing success is within her grasp. When that happens the applause of the taxpayer will be richly merited.

It is very strong stuff but I think he is capturing the public mood.

the_syco

Meh.

Let the pharmacies buy generic drugs.

Give anyone on a medial card the generic drugs. Let them buy the costly ones themselves if they want it.

Don't see why the pharmacies must give the expensive drugs to people getting them for free.

Darith

greengreen wrote: »

I have heard some pharmacists on the radio claiming to have public support but i don't know anyone personally who supports them. Why do we have to pay the twice -once as a dispensing fee and then the mark up that they have as well. It seems very unfair. Any thoughts?

People should work together in the current pharmacy HSE crisis. Local communities should organise someone whom is travelling to the distant HSE centre for prescriptions to also collect the prescriptions of others in the community

Artemis85

the_syco wrote: »

Meh.

Let the pharmacies buy generic drugs.

Give anyone on a medial card the generic drugs. Let them buy the costly ones themselves if they want it.

Don't see why the pharmacies must give the expensive drugs to people getting them for free.

The pharmacist must dispense what the GP has written on the prescription. If the GP has prescribed a brand name (e.g. Panadol(R)) instead of the generic drug name (e.g. paracetamol) by law the pharmacist has to dispense Panadol(R). If they don't stock Panadol they have to contact the GP and get permission to substitute a generic brand.
Pharmacists and the IPU have been trying to get the government to allow them to substitute generics for some years now.

patnor1011

if we have to get side in this lets get some facts. why not to publish list of say 500-1000 most commonly used drugs say third of them brand with 2 generic alternatives with their price from manufacturer, price from distributor and price in chemist. then we can see who is making money in this and who is scamming people. as far as i know in slovak republic there is law stating that distribution company and chemist can have maximum of 15% rabat each on any given medication. this ensure that medication and drugs are not expensive, price is nearly the same everywhere and chemists and distribution company making competition and doing business by putting less then their 15% max alloved rabat. everyone is happy some pharmacies got lots of clients, some not. why not to introduce same type of law here? people will get value for their money, nobody will be acused of anything and state will pay fair price for drugs for medical card holders and so on... chemists with high expences will be pushed to cut them or off the market. sure there will be somebody else replacing their business.

bleg

clarecoco wrote: »

Senan Moloney in today’s Irish Independent (8 Aug 09) has a very strong attack on the Pharmacists titled "Harney will rout the selfish pharmacists in this just war". Some quotes:
Tanaiste Mary Coughlan is 100pc correct when she names pharmacists among the gilded elite of professionals who have yet to fill the chill winds of recession let alone respond. ………………… they were breathtakingly squeezing every penny from the state milking the Exchequer hand over fist for drugs dispensed to medical card holders………………………………..
This time, the state must win, and Mary Harney has her tin hat on – with very good signs that crushing success is within her grasp. When that happens the applause of the taxpayer will be richly merited.

It is very strong stuff but I think he is capturing the public mood.

Certainly a guy that never lets the facts get in the way of a good news story. Complete sensationalist tripe.

Iris Choi

Ilovelucy wrote: »

Greed is a very powerful tool. I hope the HSE don't back down. It's about time someone had a back bone in this country.

agree

jeepers

clarecoco wrote: »

Senan Moloney in today’s Irish Independent (8 Aug 09) has a very strong attack on the Pharmacists
It is very strong stuff but I think he is capturing the public mood.

In the same edition they had the results of a poll that showed 47% agreed with pharmacists and 52% with Mary Harney.

What you meant to say was he captured your mood...