Court case re: speeding ticket - advise needed

votejohn

Apologies if there is a suitable topic already open that my query could go into, but this looks like the best place to pick your brains!!!




I received a speeding ticket in the post around April this year. It stated that I was travelling 68km/hr in a 50km/hr zone.

Now, I travel this road quite a bit, and I always assumed that the speed limit there would have been 80km/hr ( I have since travelled the road at 50km/hr and caused a Que of cars behind me!!!)..

When I got the ticket, I planned on paying it, but later that day I travelled that route again and found that there were no max speed limit signs.

I decided to look into it further, to see how you can tell the speed of the road when it is not indicated.


Town and city speed limits (50 km/h)...A speed limit of 50 kilometres per hour is in place in built-up areas (other than motorways or special speed limit zones).

National road speed limits (100 km/h)A speed limit of 100 kilometres per hour is in place on all national roads (including dual carriageways) throughout Ireland.

Regional and local speed limits (80 km/h)...A speed limit of 80 kilometres per hour is in place on all regional and local roads (sometimes referred to as non-national roads).

Motorway speed limits (120 km/h)A speed limit of 120 kilometres per hour is in place for all mechanical vehicles on all motorways. You should note that learner drivers, vehicles under 50 cc, bicycles, pedestrians, animals and invalid carriages are not allowed on motorways in Ireland.

Special speed limits (30 km/h or 60 km/h.)Special speed limits are sometimes applied to designated roads and zones (mainly, for example, on roads on the outside of built-up areas, around schools, etc.). Special speed limits are generally for 30 km/h or 60 km/h. Local authorities in Ireland have the power to introduce bye-laws to set special speed limits in designated areas. Read more about powers of local authorities here.



I then looked up the definition of a non-national road, and found it to be a road denoted with the either letter l or r, which this road is. So this indicates to me that the speed limit on this road should be 80km/hr.


I contacted the guards loads of times. In writing, phone calls, and in person. I explained my points (as above) and I told them that I found it difficult to accept the points and fine when, in my view, I didn't break any rules. They could never explain to me why the speed limit was 50km/hr. They just told me each time to wait for my summons and appeal it.



Now that the summons has come, i'm freaked! I hate to speak in big crowds, so im going to feel really awkward and i wish now that I had just paid it!!



Does anyone have any words of wisdom for me???


Cheers!

TestTransmission

Get in contact with a solicitor.

L1011

If there are legitimately *no* speed limit signs for that stretch of road, and it is a non-urban area regional road, the judge won't have much option but to let you off.

There is also the option of trawling through Iris Ofiguil and trying to find the commencement order for the speed limit on that road. There are many areas of the country where limits were not actually put in place properly meaning the road reverts to the maximum limit for its class - 80 in this case.

Either way, if you're not good at speaking in crowds, get a lawyer.

Sids Not

AFAIK if theres no speed limit sign, its assumed that the max will be 50kph...............

Seth Brundle

surely you passed a speed limit sign somewhere along your journey?

Hooch

This happens quiet a lot nowadays with road works.

County councils now inact 50kmph zones where large scale road works are being done (ie motorway overflys etc). This is done using speed signs and putting an add in the papers and following statutary regulations to inact a special speed limit. Gardaí are then requested, if a worker makes a complaint, to enforce the limit. People are detected and sent a fine. Then on travelling the road some time later people see no limit sign, when all road works are completed. Hense the confusion, or at least this is what i've experienced.

So if the member issued the fine for a 50 zone then be assured it was ta the time a 50 zone.

Hope this helps

L1011

nice guy always wrote: »

So if the member issued the fine for a 50 zone then be assured it was ta the time a 50 zone.

Rather a lot of certainty there.

I was pulled and fined for doing 77 in a "60" zone. It turned out to be 80 once I did some digging... I nearly didn't want to cash the refund cheque!

There are hundreds of cases a year of people getting fined for speeding when they were not speeding at all.

Hooch

MYOB wrote: »

Rather a lot of certainty there.

I was pulled and fined for doing 77 in a "60" zone. It turned out to be 80 once I did some digging... I nearly didn't want to cash the refund cheque!

There are hundreds of cases a year of people getting fined for speeding when they were not speeding at all.

I have no douth that there is quite a few....wouldnt say hundreds.

Was that a "special" speed limit with no legislation behind it or a mistake??

TBH i've never heard of a member making that knid of mistake....but im sure some do (not saying you lying by the way!! just curious?)

L1011

Special speed limit, was posted as being below the limit for that class of road when nothing had ever been done in law to make it so.

I wasn't aware it was posted at any lower limit so was driving to what I assumed the limit for the road was. I saw the officer with the hairdryer at a huge, huge distance away and assumed I was grand! Was a bank holiday weekend and all, the time of the year when you're usually making sure you don't go over any limits at all.

Hooch

MYOB wrote: »

Special speed limit, was posted as being below the limit for that class of road when nothing had ever been done in law to make it so.

I wasn't aware it was posted at any lower limit so was driving to what I assumed the limit for the road was. I saw the officer with the hairdryer at a huge, huge distance away and assumed I was grand! Was a bank holiday weekend and all, the time of the year when you're usually making sure you don't go over any limits at all.

Aw ya thats what I thought. Some Co co's dont inact the limits and members try inforce them as per my origional post they must be inacted in legislation.

Most co co's are now doinf it though

votejohn

MYOB wrote: »

Rather a lot of certainty there.

I was pulled and fined for doing 77 in a "60" zone. It turned out to be 80 once I did some digging... I nearly didn't want to cash the refund cheque!

There are hundreds of cases a year of people getting fined for speeding when they were not speeding at all.

that sounds like me! How did you find out for sure that the zone was 80km/hr?

L1011

votejohn wrote: »

that sounds like me! How did you find out for sure that the zone was 80km/hr?

Much arguing with the County Council on the phone.

komodosp

Much arguing with the County Council on the phone.

Don't see how anyone can have trust in the system after winning a long argument with the authorities...

Hire a lawyer

Wouldn't that cost more than the price of the speeding ticket?

BTW, just saw this ad at the bottom of this thread...

Got A Speeding Ticket?
100% Guaranteed To Get You Out Of Paying The Fine With No Points!

It seemed to be a link to a UK site, but how can they possibly guarantee 100% to get you out of a speeding ticket? I would have thought to get you out of it you must be some way in the right, but surely there are some legitimate speeding tickets given out!

Dartz

Solicitors are expensive.... not sure of the price per hour.... but it's definitely cost more than the fine if it had just been paid (Hey... wait a minute, I sense a conspiracy). Of course, when you factor in the insurance costs from having the Penaalty points added to your license, as opposed to not having any at all, it might work out cheaper in the long run.

All I can really say is... Good Luck OP.


EDIT: I use adblocker... so I don't see those ad's

L1011

Insurance loading for 2 points is generally non-existent. Although its 4 points if convicted in court...

testicle

nice guy always wrote: »

TBH i've never heard of a member making that knid of mistake....but im sure some do (not saying you lying by the way!! just curious?)

You're biased though, aren't you Guard?

votejohn

hi all.

I have my court appearance tomorrow. It the time of getting the fine I was all richeous thinking i shouldn't pay a fine i don't think i deserve...... but now that the court appearance is imminent i wish I had just paid the bloody thing!!!!!!!!!!!


My argument tomorrow is going to be


got ticket but thought zone was faster than stated.
phoned guards, spoke in person, and wrote to them each time stating that it was a non national road which should be 80km/hr there were no speed signs on the road, so why is it 50km/hr, and how was I to know.
each response I got was if you don't agree with the fine you are free to appeal it, therefore I'm appealing it!!!


What do ye think? any advice on how to approach this?

I phoned the county council, and the girl I spoke to told me that if there's no speed signs on a road, assume its 80km/hr!!!!!!
Ive emailed to try and get that in writing, but if I don't here back can I quote her?

thanks all, fingers crossed!!

Hooch

testicle wrote: »

You're biased though, aren't you Guard?

I have never given "biased" advice.

votejohn wrote: »

hi all.

I have my court appearance tomorrow. It the time of getting the fine I was all richeous thinking i shouldn't pay a fine i don't think i deserve...... but now that the court appearance is imminent i wish I had just paid the bloody thing!!!!!!!!!!!


My argument tomorrow is going to be


got ticket but thought zone was faster than stated.
phoned guards, spoke in person, and wrote to them each time stating that it was a non national road which should be 80km/hr there were no speed signs on the road, so why is it 50km/hr, and how was I to know.
each response I got was if you don't agree with the fine you are free to appeal it, therefore I'm appealing it!!!


What do ye think? any advice on how to approach this?

I phoned the county council, and the girl I spoke to told me that if there's no speed signs on a road, assume its 80km/hr!!!!!!
Ive emailed to try and get that in writing, but if I don't here back can I quote her?

thanks all, fingers crossed!!

Where were you stopped??

Seth Brundle

votejohn wrote: »

hi all.

I have my court appearance tomorrow. It the time of getting the fine I was all richeous thinking i shouldn't pay a fine i don't think i deserve...... but now that the court appearance is imminent i wish I had just paid the bloody thing!!!!!!!!!!!


My argument tomorrow is going to be


got ticket but thought zone was faster than stated.
phoned guards, spoke in person, and wrote to them each time stating that it was a non national road which should be 80km/hr there were no speed signs on the road, so why is it 50km/hr, and how was I to know.
each response I got was if you don't agree with the fine you are free to appeal it, therefore I'm appealing it!!!


What do ye think? any advice on how to approach this?

I phoned the county council, and the girl I spoke to told me that if there's no speed signs on a road, assume its 80km/hr!!!!!!
Ive emailed to try and get that in writing, but if I don't here back can I quote her?

thanks all, fingers crossed!!

You are going to appeal the fine in court with what appears to be no evidence? Goodnight!

votejohn

kbannon wrote: »

You are going to appeal the fine in court with what appears to be no evidence? Goodnight!

really, am I screwed so? should i just pay it straight up? it'll be more and more points though.

I didnt mind paying it originally, just i think its a mistake so I wanted to be told why it wasnt a mistake then id pay it, but noone would tell me where I was wrong!

Carawaystick

kbannon wrote: »

You are going to appeal the fine in court with what appears to be no evidence? Goodnight!

Doesn't the prosecution need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime, or is that just woolly headed thinking these days?

The OP has evidence. He saw NO signs indicating a lower limit.
The prosecution need to show there was (a) a lower limit actually in force and (b) the OP exceeded the limit.

Look at the Kieron Fallon trial for the need of the prosecution to prove their case.

Seth Brundle

votejohn wrote: »

really, am I screwed so? should i just pay it straight up? it'll be more and more points though.

I didnt mind paying it originally, just i think its a mistake so I wanted to be told why it wasnt a mistake then id pay it, but noone would tell me where I was wrong!

From what you have told us, you are going to stand in front of a judge and attempt to defend your case but with nothing to help you by way of proof.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Doesn't the prosecution need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime, or is that just woolly headed thinking these days?

The OP has evidence. He saw NO signs indicating a lower limit.
The prosecution need to show there was (a) a lower limit actually in force and (b) the OP exceeded the limit.

Look at the Kieron Fallon trial for the need of the prosecution to prove their case.

Stop watching Law & Order!The OP has no proof to provide the court that there was not any signs nor that he wasn't exceeding the limit.

votejohn

if i bring a witness to say that there arent any speed signs up on my route would that do any good? im not argueing the speed i was going, but im argueing that the road should be 80km/hr as its a non national road.

should i even pleed my case?

zynaps

votejohn wrote: »

if i bring a witness to say that there arent any speed signs up on my route would that do any good? im not argueing the speed i was going, but im argueing that the road should be 80km/hr as its a non national road.

should i even pleed my case?

What do you have to lose? Do the courts penalise people for trying to defend themselves against what they feel to be an injustice?

I say go for it, definitely. Explain that you saw no signs indicating a 50kph limit and surmised for the reasons you outlined above that it would be an 80kph zone. That said, IANAL so take that with a big grain of salt. Hope it turns out ok, sounds like you were hard done by.
Stick to your guns!

And re: evidence, I would also expect that the burden of proof is on the state to show that the stretch of road is in fact a 50kph area and that this fact is reasonably obvious to road users, which sounds like a nontrivial task given your descriptions.

Santa Claus

nice guy always wrote: »

So if the member issued the fine for a 50 zone then be assured it was ta the time a 50 zone.

You can't assume anything. Gardai are only human and make mistakes like everyone else. They are obviously a LOT more careful due to the nature of the job, but mistakes happen every so often !

kbannon wrote: »

From what you have told us, you are going to stand in front of a judge and attempt to defend your case but with nothing to help you by way of proof.

In fairness, what is the OP meant to do....photograph every inch of the road showing no speed limit signs ?
The Garda who issued the fine should be there in court because you are appealing it, so the judge can ask him why he felt the area was not an 80 zone and if there was temporary roadworks then the garda can tell the judge about that and the judge will make his decision based on the facts
If the garda is not in court then the judge MAY strike out the summons (some judges tend to get insulted at gardai not turning up to their courts, but gardai have the small matter of criminals to catch and such)

Best of luck OP

Smokerkl

Any chance you get could a mate in the passenger seat alongside you drive the road again with said mate holding video camera to prove there is no speed signs?? Long shot but i agree with the OP that if there is no such signage then at least tell the courts that. You might even get thanked and the Co Council will be out there in the morning putting up signs!! Good Luc anyway and let us know how you get on yeah?
S..

Padraig Mor

Sorry OP but I reckon you're screwed. The judge won't give two hoots what you or any friends say you saw or didn't see. You need written proof that the section is an 80 zone, which you don't have. TBH the night before is not the time to be sorting this out....

Exon

I seen an off duty copper blasting up the road the other day with a mobile phone in his hand. I felt like puttin a brick trough the windscreen.

De Hipster

Would be interested in hearing how this pans out OP.

Give a reasonable and clear outline of your points, provide any evidence where available & appeal based on clean full licence etc (if true!). Good Luck!

positron

Me too - really curious to know how this went - I think its up to the gardi to prove that it is indeed an 50 kmph session. If there's no road sign there even today, I don't see why not bring along a video camera as proof, even if it doesn't hold "legally" - at least is shows you are doing everything with in your capability to be a good citizen, not just wasting their time.

I don't know ifs possible to get a letter from county council saying said road is 80 kmph - if they would do it, I think they would also need to mention that there was no special speed settings for the day in question in the letter.

At times I do feel that the State is working against us, not for us..! sigh!

godtabh

The road maintenance of most (if not all) local authorities can tell you what the speed limit of certain sections of roads are. Some will charge you a fee for them to send you a letter stating the speed limit. I’ve had to do this many times for work.

Many will give it to you over the phone as well. Any effort on the OP part would have put him in a much better position today!

Dubcelt

kearnsr wrote: »

The road maintenance of most (if not all) local authorities can tell you what the speed limit of certain sections of roads are. Some will charge you a fee for them to send you a letter stating the speed limit. I’ve had to do this many times for work.

Many will give it to you over the phone as well. Any effort on the OP part would have put him in a much better position today!

Will they state in a letter the reason for particular speed limit ?

I got done by a gatso van on the Naas Road between Long Mile and Red cow last week for doing 80km in a 60km zone. Couldnt believe it was a 60km zone as it is a state of the art 3 lane + hard shoulder road. Try travelling at 60km (37mph) in either of the outside lanes and you will get abused from a height by other drivers.

I noticed that the van was still there today, yet another shooting fish in a barrell excercise which makes no contibution towards road safety. I would love to go to court but as other posters have intimated the judge wont care about how ridiculous the limit is, but just rule on the point of law.

godtabh

No it will just state the speed limit of the road. The CC is then responsible for maintain the road (including signage) based on this speed limit.

Roads under the control of the NRA is different but I believe the same process for getting the official speed limit can be done but takes longer.

votejohn

well the court case was first thing this morning. I got kind of flustered pleading my case, and the judge rushed through the case so i still have the fine to pay.


in the correspondance i got from the guards in the past, they just said it is what it is, but in court the same guard went into detail about how that road has special speed limits and their locations (if he had just told me that in the first place i would have paid up immediately!).

I had an email will me from the county council saying if there are no speed limits up on a non-national road, you assume that the speed limit is 80 km/h, but the judge said that wouldnt stand up as evidence.

looking back i should have agrued my case a bit more, but to be honest i was flustered and just wanted to get out of there!!

oh, and by the way im female (not just saying that as a random fact, some posters were saying him / he, so just politely correcting them )

dudara

Dubcelt wrote: »

Will they state in a letter the reason for particular speed limit ?

I got done by a gatso van on the Naas Road between Long Mile and Red cow last week for doing 80km in a 60km zone. Couldnt believe it was a 60km zone as it is a state of the art 3 lane + hard shoulder road. Try travelling at 60km (37mph) in either of the outside lanes and you will get abused from a height by other drivers.

I drive that most mornings, and it's a pretty clearly marked 60 kmph zone. You don't hit the 80 kmph zone until you're over the Red Cow and heading for Newland's cross.

It may be a 3 lane section of road, but it's also in an urban area.

That Gatso is there about 1-2 times a week on average.

Abelloid

That's too bad, seems a bit unfair that they can tell you a what the limit is after catching you going over and not before...

What road is it?

votejohn

out by rochestown. I wasnt that familiar with the road at the time, and since i have gone 50km / hr on that road and it results in a que of traffic behind me! they really should put signs up, or even painted on the road as im sure signs can be removed (damn students!).

votejohn

oh, and the judge said ill have a fine of 150, but no mention of points. is it just taken that ill get 4 points?

Hooch

votejohn wrote: »

oh, and the judge said ill have a fine of 150, but no mention of points. is it just taken that ill get 4 points?

A judge has no authority over points (although some think they do). Once you convicted of speeding the conviction is sent to the department and the points are added to your licence. You should get a letter stating same. 4 points for speeding im afraid.

votejohn

nice guy always wrote: »

A judge has no authority over points (although some think they do). Once you convicted of speeding the conviction is sent to the department and the points are added to your licence. You should get a letter stating same. 4 points for speeding im afraid.

do i need to notify my insurance or will they be notified?

Hooch

votejohn wrote: »

do i need to notify my insurance or will they be notified?

You do not have to notify them at the moment. You must however notify them at time of renewal. 4 points wont make a difference to your insurance. Most if not all companies take no notice until you hit 6 points.

Dubcelt

dudara wrote: »

I drive that most mornings, and it's a pretty clearly marked 60 kmph zone. You don't hit the 80 kmph zone until you're over the Red Cow and heading for Newland's cross.

It may be a 3 lane section of road, but it's also in an urban area.

That Gatso is there about 1-2 times a week on average.

I drove on some country roads in Limerick yesterday which have an 80k limit and you would be taking your life in your hands driving near that limit yet on a brand new straight stretch of treble carraigeway (Urban or not) its 60km. Yet more madness in this Mickey mouse country.

zynaps

Dubcelt wrote: »

I drove on some country roads in Limerick yesterday which have an 80k limit and you would be taking your life in your hands driving near that limit yet on a brand new straight stretch of treble carraigeway (Urban or not) its 60km. Yet more madness in this Mickey mouse country.

On the way from Dublin to Kerry and back last month, we passed a stretch of road with signs saying 60, then 80, then 60, then 80, in roughly that order. They were about 30 metres apart from each other, with absolutely no obvious reason why the speed limit should change at those points. It was a straight road with 2 lanes and a hard shoulder.

Quite a few bizarrely speedposted areas - some narrow and dangerous single-track bendy roads with high bushes and low visibility would be 100kph, then an open stretch of motorway would be 50kph due to some ancient defunct roadworks. :mad:

bladebrew

nice guy always wrote: »

A judge has no authority over points (although some think they do). Once you convicted of speeding the conviction is sent to the department and the points are added to your licence. You should get a letter stating same. 4 points for speeding im afraid.

what happens if you never receive any points?? apparently i have no endorsememnt or penalty points even though i was in court in june last year for careless driving,i have been told many different things but you are the first person to explain how you get penalty points added after court:)

i was told last week that the judge decides the penalty points!

sorry for the hijacking

Hooch

bladebrew wrote: »

what happens if you never receive any points?? apparently i have no endorsememnt or penalty points even though i was in court in june last year for careless driving,i have been told many different things but you are the first person to explain how you get penalty points added after court:)

i was told last week that the judge decides the penalty points!

sorry for the hijacking

No the judge doesnt. Sometimes it takes time for a court conviction notice to be sent to the department. I'd say sit it out and wait. or if you really want check it out. If you search motors there is a link somewhere to the phone number to check it.

Of course it could be a clerical error in your favor;)

I have seen judges rule that no penalty point be applied to the licence but convicts the driver of speeding, only for the driver to later recieve the points and write to me giving out to me that they shouldnt have got the points!!

Santa Claus

bladebrew wrote: »

what happens if you never receive any points?? apparently i have no endorsememnt or penalty points even though i was in court in june last year for careless driving,i have been told many different things but you are the first person to explain how you get penalty points added after court:)

If you ring the RSA in Ballina and ask for the licensing section and give them your licence number they will be able to tell you if there is points/endorsements on it or not.

There was a substantial delay in applying points at one stage, don't know how long it takes now for them to be applied

venividivici

Hey, don't really have a clue about the speed limit thing but just hoping to ease your mind a little as you're worried about speaking infront of a packed courtroom. Before the court actually begins you can go and speak to the Garda ,who'll be in the courtroom somewhere, and explain your situation to him/her only. Hopefully when you do they'll understand and will strike it out without you even having to be called up by the judge. Sorry for rambling but goodluck!!

Hooch

venividivici wrote: »

Hey, don't really have a clue about the speed limit thing but just hoping to ease your mind a little as you're worried about speaking infront of a packed courtroom. Before the court actually begins you can go and speak to the Garda ,who'll be in the courtroom somewhere, and explain your situation to him/her only. Hopefully when you do they'll understand and will strike it out without you even having to be called up by the judge. Sorry for rambling but goodluck!!

The case was this morning:D.....little late but good advice. This will work for somethings like failing to produce etc.

bladebrew

thanks to santa claus and nice guy always,

i think they may have made a mistake somewhere,i went into the court and said i may have an endorsment so she went and checked and said i dont!,i was on to the rsa and they also said i have no penalty points, the court case was in june of 2008 so i doubt i will ever receive the points,

of course i told quinn i have 5 penalty points:o
they requested a photocopy of my driving licence but that wont show them anything as i dont have an endorsment on it,
im terrified of telling quinn i have no endosment or points and then having an accident and then the points turn up!


thanks again for the info lads,

votejohn

nice guy always wrote: »

Sometimes it takes time for a court conviction notice to be sent to the department. I'd say sit it out and wait

my insurance is up for renewal at the end of the month. if i havent gotten any notification by the time im renewing my policy, do i say that ive no points or what?

Hooch

votejohn wrote: »

my insurance is up for renewal at the end of the month. if i havent gotten any notification by the time im renewing my policy, do i say that ive no points or what?

Well by the letter of the law you havint recieved notification of the points yet, but they will be applied from the date of conviction. But you know their comming so I would to be honest. It shouldnt effect your insurance premium and if it does i'd move insurers.