Organising a Campaign against property tax (AKA Ireland's poll tax)

AntiPropertyTax

Hi. I am looking to hear from anyone else out there who would be interested in getting together and organising a campaign group to oppose the threatened property tax.

In particular if there are any workers on low incomes , people who are newly unemployed but who own their own homes, elderly people who have small incomes who are worried about being forced to move by a high property tax.

For anyone renting a property too, as landlords will be passing this tax on to their tennents in the form of higher rents (as happened in England in 1989 when the Poll Tax began)

Also anyone who paid stamp duty in the last 10 years and feels angry the government would consider bringing in another tax , or just anyone who feels a property tax is unfair as it doesn't take account of income or ability to pay.



So if you would like to get involved in starting a campaign group please post here...

DJDC

For anyone renting a property too, as landlords will be passing this tax on to their tennents in the form of higher rents (as happened in England in 1989 when the Poll Tax began)

The Irish rental market is a mess, rising prices = non tenants. The market will only take rises if it can support it, therefore landlords will take the hit. Look the government need a form of reliable tax income that isnt based on one-off transactions. You are shooting yourself in the foot by opposing property tax. The cynical part of me tells me you are a landlord/amateur investor.

AntiPropertyTax

I can promise you I'm not a landlord. I'm just an ordinary worker on a fairly low wage (13 an hour).
I'm actually all in favor of higher taxes to pay for better services, but they should be based on income and ability to pay.
When the Poll Tax came in in the Summer of 89 in England, it ended up being passed on - I remember paying it
Unless you are living in a tent , you will end up paying this.

jetski

DJDC wrote: »

The Irish rental market is a mess, rising prices = non tenants. The market will only take rises if it can support it, therefore landlords will take the hit. Look the government need a form of reliable tax income that isnt based on one-off transactions. You are shooting yourself in the foot by opposing property tax. The cynical part of me tells me you are a landlord/amateur investor.

tripe of the highest order

DJDC

tripe of the highest order

You are the guy who bought a house in early 2008 and has been awfully quiet recently because your predictions of a soft landing in late 2008 have proved disasterously wrong right?

Agent J

jetski wrote: »

tripe of the highest order

Counter it then.

Most of what they say makes logical sense.

Over supply of accomadation leads to dropping prices.
If they try to pass on the hit they wont be able to rent.
Supply and demand 101.

If we had some sort of property tax over the last 10/15 year it would have moderated demand somewhat and had less of a bubble as well as moved from basing a budget on large one off tranactions to a steady stream of income.

Jumpy

Can I organise one supporting property tax?

AntiPropertyTax

Agent J wrote: »

If we had some sort of property tax over the last 10/15 year it would have moderated demand somewhat and had less of a bubble as well as moved from basing a budget on large one off tranactions to a steady stream of income.

For anyone who did buy within the last 10/15 years we did already pay a kind of property tax in the form of stamp duty.

I think the time to try and introduce a property tax was 2002/3 when wages were going up, jobs were secure, and people could afford it. The big problem now is there are a lot of people out there who have lost jobs, taken major pay cuts , and are just about keeping their heads above water. Now a sudden massive new tax is going to push a lot of people over the edge, and its those people that I want to ask to join me in starting a campaign to try and stop this tax.

gurramok

Why should Ireland be the only country in the EU without a form of property tax?

jetski

DJDC wrote: »

You are the guy who bought a house in early 2008 and has been awfully quiet recently because your predictions of a soft landing in late 2008 have proved disasterously wrong right?

Wrong & wrong again.

meglome

jetski wrote: »

tripe of the highest order

Well I'm looking for a rental at the moment and I'm having no problem making offers lower than the listed amount. Haven't decided which one yet as there's just so many to choose from. So it really isn't tripe.

niallo27

meglome wrote: »

Well I'm looking for a rental at the moment and I'm having no problem making offers lower than the listed amount. Haven't decided which one yet as there's just so many to choose from. So it really isn't tripe.

Well landlords don't have to deal with property tax at the moment so we don't know how they will react.

meglome

niallo27 wrote: »

Well landlords don't have to deal with property tax at the moment so we don't know how they will react.

True but let's assume market forces for a moment. In a renters market the landlords will have to take whatever pain comes their way. They can try and pass it along but it's very doubtful they would be able to then rent the apartment.

Senna

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

For anyone who did buy within the last 10/15 years we did already pay a kind of property tax in the form of stamp duty.

You pay VRT on a new/imported car, the you pay road tax, you pay insurance tax, you pay tax on fuel for your car etc etc. Just because you paid the original tax on the purchase of the car doesn't mean you can forgo all the other taxes. Why is a house different? If they dont take it in a property tax, you'll just pay it in another form.

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

I think the time to try and introduce a property tax was 2002/3

Yes it should have been, in 1999 the OECD (LINK) recommended property tax, water rates, canceling TRS and 3rd level fees, when the country could have absorbed it rather than now when all these will be brought in in a short space of time when the average joe needs them lease.
Whenever Cowan is spouting off about international this and unforeseen that, this and the 100's of other recommendations and reports like it should be shoved in this pig-like face.

AntiPropertyTax

Senna wrote: »

You pay VRT on a new/imported car, the you pay road tax, you pay insurance tax, you pay tax on fuel for your car etc etc. Just because you paid the original tax on the purchase of the car doesn't mean you can forgo all the other taxes. Why is a house different? If they dont take it in a property tax, you'll just pay it in another form.

Yes I take your point , but the difference is that if you lose your job or take a major wage cut (as many young homeowners and renters are having to do) you can sell your car and walk / bus / bike etc. But we all need our homes, and esspecially when you have a young family. So the state should not be doing anything that effectivly will tax young familys into the point where they are forced out of their homes.

And as for paying tax in another form - yeah I agree, but any tax that must be paid should be linked in someway to income or means.

Firetrap

jetski wrote: »

Wrong & wrong again.

So what was this thread about?

meglome

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

Yes I take your point , but the difference is that if you lose your job or take a major wage cut (as many young homeowners and renters are having to do) you can sell your car and walk / bus / bike etc. But we all need our homes, and esspecially when you have a young family. So the state should not be doing anything that effectivly will tax young familys into the point where they are forced out of their homes.

And as for paying tax in another form - yeah I agree, but any tax that must be paid should be linked in someway to income or means.

I'm sorry but the state already royally fuucked young families by encouraging an unsustainable property bubble. Now we have no choice but to do things the sensible way which means they get hit again. I know no one put a gun to their heads to buy this overpriced property but when pretty much everyone including your own government is lying to you about it then I do have some sympathy.

jetski

Firetrap wrote: »

So what was this thread about?

LMAO... u tell me, no idea what ur getting at.

DavidCarroll

gotta say. i would be in favour of a property tax, local services have to paid for and it should be done on a user pays basis. of course they need to tighten up on fruad and waste in the system first and also elderly and low waged should receive allowances. considering the state of the rental market i dont think landlords will be able to pass it on

DonJose

I am a home owner and I am in favour of a property tax, anything that pushes down the prices of properties can only be a good thing. I bought my property at a huge discount, €110k less than the sellers paid in 2007 so prices are going in the right direction. I have young children and I don't want to see them burdened with a huge mortgage for the rest of their lives.

Victor

I'm inclined to close this thread or move it to politics, where there is a similar thread.

Fighting Irish

cutting costs > taxes

The_Conductor

Guys- quit personalising things- surely you don't need to be reminded that if you disagree something someone posts- you refute the post- without attacking the poster.

Next person who gets personal gets a posting holiday from this forum.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

The_Conductor

OP- While I empathise fully with you- unfortunately the country is truly up the creek. Organising a property tax protest is pretty pointless- we need cut expenditure or raise taxes to the tune of 26 billion to balance the books.

The nature of Stamp Duty is such that it is cyclical in nature (as was/is the property bubble). The government did not treat it as such- they viewed it as a cash cow who would forever keep giving- and they became wholly addicted to its largess.

Even in the 2009 budget there was a 5% increase in social welfare rates (7.2% in real terms)- at a time of a massive and spiraling deficit.

We can't have anymore of this NIMBY politics- where we protest a hospital closure, fewer teachers for schools, the abolition of universal children's welfare etc- what needs to happen is for every proposed increase in taxes or decrease in expenditure that people disagree with- they need to identify a commensurate income stream that can produce the same effect (keeping in mind the laws of unintended consequences).

The government has committed many sins- its current one is a total inability to communicate with the electorate and a complete and utter lack of leadership. Why do we deserve this?

Its very easy to wave a flag and say 'We need Public Sector Reform' (which we do)- but we also need reform of the minimum wage, reform of social welfare entitlements, reform of the houses of the Oireachtais, reform of pension rights, reform of our tax codes- we need to rebuild this country from the bottom up.

The piecemeal dribble down of potential reforms is only aligning interest groups sniping at each other- when the true villains are hiding behind the anonymity our gutless politicians have afforded them.

S.

ZYX

smccarrick wrote: »

OP- While I empathise fully with you- unfortunately the country is truly up the creek. Organising a property tax protest is pretty pointless- we need cut expenditure or raise taxes to the tune of 26 billion to balance the books.

The nature of Stamp Duty is such that it is cyclical in nature (as was/is the property bubble). The government did not treat it as such- they viewed it as a cash cow who would forever keep giving- and they became wholly addicted to its largess.

Even in the 2009 budget there was a 5% increase in social welfare rates (7.2% in real terms)- at a time of a massive and spiraling deficit.

We can't have anymore of this NIMBY politics- where we protest a hospital closure, fewer teachers for schools, the abolition of universal children's welfare etc- what needs to happen is for every proposed increase in taxes or decrease in expenditure that people disagree with- they need to identify a commensurate income stream that can produce the same effect (keeping in mind the laws of unintended consequences).

The government has committed many sins- its current one is a total inability to communicate with the electorate and a complete and utter lack of leadership. Why do we deserve this?

Its very easy to wave a flag and say 'We need Public Sector Reform' (which we do)- but we also need reform of the minimum wage, reform of social welfare entitlements, reform of the houses of the Oireachtais, reform of pension rights, reform of our tax codes- we need to rebuild this country from the bottom up.

The piecemeal dribble down of potential reforms is only aligning interest groups sniping at each other- when the true villains are hiding behind the anonymity our gutless politicians have afforded them.

S.

The problem with a property tax is that it is unfair. It takes no account of ability to pay. Increase taxes should be on income and on goods. On income the more you earn the more you should pay. On goods you have a choice whether to pay the tax or not. ie if you want product you know you have to pay tax. A carbon tax falls into this category. The more you use the more you pay.

The other big problem with property tax is that it introduces another level of bureaucracy with the increased costs this implies. Staff, paperwork, collection, means testing (or some other way of ensuring very low paid do not get charged) appeals process etc.

The_Conductor

ZYX wrote: »

The problem with a property tax is that it is unfair. It takes no account of ability to pay. Increase taxes should be on income and on goods. On income the more you earn the more you should pay. On goods you have a choice whether to pay the tax or not. ie if you want product you know you have to pay tax. A carbon tax falls into this category. The more you use the more you pay.

The other big problem with property tax is that it introduces another level of bureaucracy with the increased costs this implies. Staff, paperwork, collection, means testing (or some other way of ensuring very low paid do not get charged) appeals process etc.

Its unfair primarily as a result of the Irish pre-occupation with property. Elsewhere in Europe property tax is both a brake on runaway property prices, but also easy to collect, as the onus is on the taxpayer to make a self declaration, and the implications of not doing so are such- that few people would try to evade the tax (there are a few notable exceptions- such as the French and German property tax on properties owned by their tax residents in foreign countries- which are truly a nightmare to monitor).

A property tax is unfair- I agree with you. It is however a non-cyclical income stream which provides a defined income over a prescribed period of time. Asset based taxes are some of the few that allow this.

We will see large increases in other taxation- most probably fuel (I'd imagine more on diesel than petrol- to try to mitigate the price differential with the UK), cigarettes are a waste of time- smuggling is just too rife- unless you transferred a load of folk into investigative C&E roles.

We may not have the highest direct taxation around- but by God- we have a totally unreal indirect taxation regime. Its all well and good focusing on the Nordic model and suggesting we pay 70 or 80% tax, and are supplied with the benefits they have there. They don't get mugged on every corner with stealth taxation- which the Irish authorities are particularly good at.

It will be very interesting to see just whats in the Commission on Taxation's report. McCarthy was hung out to dry with his 4.6 billion of savings identified (at a time when we have a budget deficit of 24-25 billion)- how are people going to react with proposals to somehow identify another 20 odd billion......

A lack of communication is almost worse than the appalling state of the country's finances- the government need to communicate to the people how bad things are- and how they propose to get the ship back into calmer waters.

Copper1

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

Hi. I am looking to hear from anyone else out there who would be interested in getting together and organising a campaign group to oppose the threatened property tax.

In particular if there are any workers on low incomes , people who are newly unemployed but who own their own homes, elderly people who have small incomes who are worried about being forced to move by a high property tax.

For anyone renting a property too, as landlords will be passing this tax on to their tennents in the form of higher rents (as happened in England in 1989 when the Poll Tax began)

Also anyone who paid stamp duty in the last 10 years and feels angry the government would consider bringing in another tax , or just anyone who feels a property tax is unfair as it doesn't take account of income or ability to pay.



So if you would like to get involved in starting a campaign group please post here...

You have my support, what can I do?

godtabh

Firetrap wrote: »

So what was this thread about?

His pension?

I wouldn't like the have to pay property tax. I pay normal tax as well as management fees. If management fees were done away and the council did what I believe they should be doing in the first place I'd stomach a property tax better

AntiPropertyTax

Copper1 wrote: »

You have my support, what can I do?

Thanks -

Write / e-mail or call to TD's - esspecially those in Fianna Fail and the Greens. Let them know this is an issue that that will really hurt ordinary working people - esspecially those on low incomes, and that they won't be forgiven if they bring in such a deeply unfair tax.

MG

ZYX wrote: »

The problem with a property tax is that it is unfair. It takes no account of ability to pay. Increase taxes should be on income and on goods. On income the more you earn the more you should pay. On goods you have a choice whether to pay the tax or not. ie if you want product you know you have to pay tax. A carbon tax falls into this category. The more you use the more you pay.

I'm not convinced at all. The great thing about a property tax is that there is no disincentive to work, the opposite in fact. For me, the ability to pay is neither here nor there. If you are in a very expensive house but can't afford to pay a tax of under 1k per annum then there is something wrong. There is a choice on whether to pay this tax or not - if you can't afford it sell up and move to a cheaper house.

Trampas

If they bring in property tax is will it effect both employed and looking for employment homes.

The country can't afford to tighten the difference between employed and looking for employment people.

I know there isn't loads of jobs out there but when there is more jobs the country needs to make people better off by getting a job instead of not taking a job because they will feel it is not worth it cause they will lose benefits for having an extra couple of euro in their pocket.