Should pornographic drawings depicting minors be illegal?

Ziggurat

N.B.: Mods, I wasn't sure which other forum this would fit into but Humanities seemed best.

I honestly don't know where Irish law stands on this issue but I'm still curious to know what people's stance on it is.

For myself, I don't see a problem. Firstly, it's the classic difference between fantasy and reality. Child porn involving videos or photos of children involves real children being abused. People draw anthropomorphic animals with anatomically correct genitalia and I've never heard any great outcry against that.
Secondly, there are no victims. No child has been abused in the making of the image (you can pick up a medical textbook, I'm sure, if you really wanted to be accurate), so if it's a crime is it not a victimless crime?

Firstly, There's a difference between drawing animals and humans. Perhaps if animals were the dominant species they might have something to say about it.

Secondly, you said pornographic not drawings of anatomy or other such images. You've specifically said drawings which are used for sexual stimulation. In that, case I'm very much against it. Its wrong. Completely and utterly wrong, and anyone that gains pleasure from it is sick by society's standards (and mine).

Third, Many people these days have problems understanding the difference between fantasy and reality. Whether its the way our cultures have advanced, the progresses in entertainment, or loosening of moral codes, some people have serious issues with separating their fantasies from reality.

Lastly, how do you know there are no victims? What about people who see these images and it stirs a passion to consume a realistic version of the image? There have been cases of serial killers applying methods to recapture an image they got from TV, films, or other visual "art".

Seriously, I think you need to actually think about what you wrote above. Either that, or you're a minor yourself, and don't have much of an understanding of the darker (or sexual) sides of humanity.

Coriolanus

Deleted User wrote: »

Firstly, There's a difference between drawing animals and humans. Perhaps if animals were the dominant species they might have something to say about it.

Secondly, you said pornographic not drawings of anatomy or other such images. You've specifically said drawings which are used for sexual stimulation. In that, case I'm very much against it. Its wrong. Completely and utterly wrong, and anyone that gains pleasure from it is sick by society's standards (and mine).

Third, Many people these days have problems understanding the difference between fantasy and reality. Whether its the way our cultures have advanced, the progresses in entertainment, or loosening of moral codes, some people have serious issues with separating their fantasies from reality.

Lastly, how do you know there are no victims? What about people who see these images and it stirs a passion to consume a realistic version of the image? There have been cases of serial killers applying methods to recapture an image they got from TV, films, or other visual "art".

1) Bestiality is a crime. I think the OP was trying to draw the eye to the fact that furry porn isn't illegal, whereas it's rl counterpart is etc.

2) Value judgement, nothing I can really say in reply. Though it might be worth mentioning that 50 years ago, mentruating women were unclean and had to be segregated.

3) Linkage to any substantive studies on the topic? That said, even true, we're going to have to ban a loooot of stuff if people, or even a signifigant percentage, prove to be so easily susceptible.

4 ) Correlation does not equal causation. Strangely enough, there were pedophiles and serial killers long before GTA, furries, and internet child porn. Shocking, I know.

Anyway, I answered don't know, cause I don't.

Ziggurat

Deleted User wrote: »

Firstly, There's a difference between drawing animals and humans. Perhaps if animals were the dominant species they might have something to say about it.

It was more a point that many people object to the sexualising of animals (i.e. zoophilia/bestiality) yet with regards drawn images of anthropomorphic animals, which as I stated can often have anatomically correct animal genitalia, there is not quite the same outcry.

Hell, I've seen ordinary animals drawn in a sexual manner with little objection, at least that I've seen.

Nevore, I think, summed it up quite well, thank you Nevore.

Secondly, you said pornographic not drawings of anatomy or other such images. You've specifically said drawings which are used for sexual stimulation. In that, case I'm very much against it. Its wrong. Completely and utterly wrong, and anyone that gains pleasure from it is sick by society's standards (and mine).

Alright. Care to expand upon why you think that? Would I be wrong in assuming it's the same objection you would take to bona-fide child-porn?

As I said, if they were photographs I could understand. I mean, we prohibit murder, extortion, racketeering, drug-dealing, assault, etc. but human media (whatever form it takes) is rife with these themes and always has been.

Why are drawn pornographic images of minors any more objectionable than the above?

Third, Many people these days have problems understanding the difference between fantasy and reality. Whether its the way our cultures have advanced, the progresses in entertainment, or loosening of moral codes, some people have serious issues with separating their fantasies from reality.

I would put it down to mental instability. Should we censor every piece of fictional writing/artwork simply because some people cannot tell the difference?

I would say it is the job of those who have care over them to ensure they are not exposed to that material.

Lastly, how do you know there are no victims? What about people who see these images and it stirs a passion to consume a realistic version of the image? There have been cases of serial killers applying methods to recapture an image they got from TV, films, or other visual "art".

And I'm sure there are people with paedophilic tendencies who use these drawings as an outlet for their desires.

Seriously, I think you need to actually think about what you wrote above. Either that, or you're a minor yourself, and don't have much of an understanding of the darker (or sexual) sides of humanity.

I just don't think it's as cut-and-dry an issue as you portray it to be. The majority of people are capable of making the distinction between fantasy and reality but believe me I've seen some very, very destructive results from those who can't.

Still, I appreciate your input and look forward to discussing the issue further.

RandolphEsq

I think a detalied answer to the question ''why is child porn illegal?'' (i.e. ALL the issues, logic and reasoning) is necessary here. Anyone want to go into great depth and churn out a response?

silverharp

RandolphEsq wrote: »

I think a detalied answer to the question ''why is child porn illegal?'' (i.e. ALL the issues, logic and reasoning) is necessary here. Anyone want to go into great depth and churn out a response?

seems a simple enough issue , child porn is illegal because at the start of the chain a coercive exploitation/abuse of a child has occured which by any standard of law would be objectionable. it would seem reasonable not to be able to profit from a crime

As for drawings which one would have to assume is a product of the imagination unless there is evidence to the contrary is an issue over "thought crime" combined with some attempt at social engineering. Here I would see no reason to ban such drawings no matter how odeous the content (by my subjective standards) . The risk here for anyone who professes a freedom of speech is that such laws would expand in scope and would open the door to restrictions in other areas of expression.

pappyodaniel

Don't know where i stand on this issue. Why have you posted a thread on this subject matter anyway? Is it debate for debate's sake or is there any motive to it?
I'm dead against sexualised paintings of miners though. All that darkness, the coal, the hardhat&torch. :eek:

Sangre

They are illegal.

Amalgam

silverharp wrote: »

Here I would see no reason to ban such drawings no matter how odeous the content (by my subjective standards) . The risk here for anyone who professes a freedom of speech is that such laws would expand in scope and would open the door to restrictions in other areas of expression.

Hmm, I would say the 'social engineering' is carried out on the pederast side. The drawings validate and reinforce a value system. Conditioning and self validation is important. I'm alright Jack.. even better if you have an audience for it.

ChocolateSauce

No. The reason child porn is illegal is because filming it involves hurting children. A drawing is a piece of fiction, and if someone can link to evidence that one child in all the world has ever been hurt by fictional porn, I'll be a monkey's uncle.

Governments aren't there to legislate for taste.