Club form FRPC1

rrpc

In the same vein that I went through the FCA1, I'm doing the same to FRPC1. Unfortunately for our hero, I'm not half as happy and this could take a while :pac:

Section 1
OK, this is going to exercise one of my favourite pet hates and that's the whole splitting up clubs and ranges thing. I know it has to be done because you can get both, but having done it doesn't mean that the same situation pertains in reality.

In other words: Range, Rifle Club only, Pistol Club only and Rifle and Pistol Club are not the only options. Any of the latter three can also include a range.

So OK, you tick two boxes, no problem then. We'll see.

Fill in the other boxes about name, location and address of range and continue to...

Section 2
You're the owner and/or operator of a range and/or you're the authorised officer of a club.

But you're not. You're the authorised officer of a club that owns a range. So you're not the owner and you're not the operator because you're an individual and an entity owns the range. (In Rathdrum's case it's a trust).

No box for that I'm afraid. And there never will be because a club is an unincorporated body; it doesn't exist in law so there's no box ever designed to fit that one in.

But you struggle manfully on, putting in your name and address and contact details and move on to

Section 3
Declaration: You fill this one in with your eyes closed and your fingers crossed, because it says that false and misleading information will lead to a prosecution. I hope that's aimed at the designer of the form :rolleyes:

Section 4
Adds such things as the fee you need to enclose and this ones a dilly boys and girls because it'll cost you a cool grand for this little form and all it really gets you is the privilege of applying for a range certificate and that's another grand down the tubes.

Yep, two grand for a club and range authorisation, no recession here methinks.

Section 5
This is where all the problems with this piece of tomfoolery really come home to roost.

You get to store firearms and ammunition on your range or part of your range when you didn't want to do this in the first place

I don't know any club where they store firearms or ammunition on the range. There may be some, but I don't know them. Generally and this is the case in our club, the firearms are stored with one of the members who's gone to great expense and trouble to meet the very strict security measures required.

And there's no place on the form to cover this.

So why would you need to fill this form in?

I honestly don't know because it gives you the square root of fup all.
We've a 2(4)(d) authorisation and we'll stick with that thank you very much indeed.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

We've a 2(4)(d) authorisation and we'll stick with that thank you very much indeed.

Not that I disagree with you, but it's not really the club's choice, it's down to the Garda Superintendent...

rrpc

rrpc wrote: »

In the same vein that I went through the FCA1, I'm doing the same to FRPC1. Unfortunately for our hero, I'm not half as happy and this could take a while :pac:
``
Section 1
OK, this is going to exercise one of my favourite pet hates and that's the whole splitting up clubs and ranges thing. I know it has to be done because you can get both, but having done it doesn't mean that the same situation pertains in reality.

In other words: Range, Rifle Club only, Pistol Club only and Rifle and Pistol Club are not the only options. Any of the latter three can also include a range.

So OK, you tick two boxes, no problem then. We'll see.

Would you not fall under 'Range' if you are a shooting range?
So, RRPC would be 'Range' and hence you trigger the range inspection etc etc while the local 'Rifle Club Only', who don't have range, don't trigger the range inspection? Or have I read that incorrectly?

Fill in the other boxes about name, location and address of range and continue to...

Section 2
You're the owner and/or operator of a range and/or you're the authorised officer of a club.

But you're not. You're the authorised officer of a club that owns a range. So you're not the owner and you're not the operator because you're an individual and an entity owns the range. (In Rathdrum's case it's a trust).

No box for that I'm afraid. And there never will be because a club is an unincorporated body; it doesn't exist in law so there's no box ever designed to fit that one in.

But you struggle manfully on, putting in your name and address and contact details and move on to

You tick Authorised Officer - ie President, Captain etc...

rrpc

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you not fall under 'Range' if you are a shooting range?
So, RRPC would be 'Range' and hence you trigger the range inspection etc etc while the local 'Rifle Club Only', who don't have range, don't trigger the range inspection? Or have I read that incorrectly?

You can tick more than one box. The issue to me is the division between clubs and ranges, I know it can't be got around but it raises issues like this one. Most clubs are both clubs and ranges. DURC is a club and a range.

You tick Authorised Officer - ie President, Captain etc...

That's authorised officer of a club. What about the range the club owns, where's the box for that one?

rrpc

rrpc wrote: »

You can tick more than one box. The issue to me is the division between clubs and ranges, I know it can't be got around but it raises issues like this one. Most clubs are both clubs and ranges. DURC is a club and a range.


That's authorised officer of a club. What about the range the club owns, where's the box for that one?

Thats transitive though, if you are an authorised officer of a club, which owns a range, you are authorised to speak for that range....

fat-tony

Methinks some discussion with the Range Inspector is required.
The new forms are not too bad for a first attempt, but need some work to clarify the choices and improve the logic.

rrpc

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats transitive though, if you are an authorised officer of a club, which owns a range, you are authorised to speak for that range....

Except they've differentiated between the two. If you sign for the club, you haven't signed for the range and vice versa.

If you sign as operator or owner of a range (where you're neither - and don't forget, an officer of DURC is neither the owner nor operator of the range), then it's false or misleading information.

It's not clear at all as to which boxes to tick. The only ones it's intuitive for is where you have a club with no range or a commercial range operator.

It's a matrix selection reduced to binary form and it doesn't work.

rrpc

rrpc wrote: »

Except they've differentiated between the two. If you sign for the club, you haven't signed for the range and vice versa.

What is the logic behind that? I mean, if a club owns a range, then the clubs represents the range..

If you sign as operator or owner of a range (where you're neither - and don't forget, an officer of DURC is neither the owner nor operator of the range), then it's false or misleading information.

No problem for us, we have a range owner!

It's not clear at all as to which boxes to tick. The only ones it's intuitive for is where you have a club with no range or a commercial range operator.

Would I be right though in saying that for the majority of clubs that would be the case? DURC, UCD, RRPC would be the exceptions to the commercial ranges

It's a matrix selection reduced to binary form and it doesn't work.

It never does

rrpc

Deleted User wrote: »

What is the logic behind that? I mean, if a club owns a range, then the clubs represents the range..

Because a club is an unincorporated body and has no legal status. Meaning that it can't sign forms and it can't own anything.

No problem for us, we have a range owner!

You do, but what about your club?

Would I be right though in saying that for the majority of clubs that would be the case? DURC, UCD, RRPC would be the exceptions to the commercial ranges

Except some clubs rent or lease land for a range and that has to be catered for somewhere on the form. And isn't.

rrpc

rrpc wrote: »

Because a club is an unincorporated body and has no legal status. Meaning that it can't sign forms and it can't own anything.

You do, but what about your club?

Except some clubs rent or lease land for a range and that has to be catered for somewhere on the form. And isn't.

There must be a name on the owernship of the range though? If RRPC can't own a range, then someone must have signed for the building in which you shoot? Is that person not able to sign the form?

I would imagine again, the person who owns the land (with the range built on it) would be the one to sign the form, since its 'his' range.

rrpc

Deleted User wrote: »

There must be a name on the owernship of the range though? If RRPC can't own a range, then someone must have signed for the building in which you shoot? Is that person not able to sign the form?

It's a trust with three trustees. Legal documents don't provide any obstacles to this kind of ownership arrangement, this form does.

I would imagine again, the person who owns the land (with the range built on it) would be the one to sign the form, since its 'his' range.

No they're the landowner. The leaseholder will be an individual, usually a member of the club, but they're not the club and the club will operate the range.

All it really neads is a tick box that says: "I am an authorised officer of the aforementioned rifle/pistol club which owns/operates the aforementioned range"

I don't have time to really try and fix this, but it should either be fixed or very clear instructions as to how to fill this out for every possible scenario should be issued.

As I pointed out before, it states that the provision of false or misleading information on the form may lead to prosecution, so my advice would be to steer well clear of it until these issues are cleared up.

I'm not going near that form! I'm not an officer in any club!!

I get what you mean though.