Sean Russell statue

Rondolfus

Glad to see that in this time of recession some people have decided to keep themselves busy by attacking inanimate objects like the Sean Russell statue in Fairview park. Yes we all know the history of Sean Russell, he’s attempts to ally himself (and Ireland) with the Nazis et all. Nazis are bad!! On that we should all agree!

However, we should also remember that Ireland was neutral in WW2, therefore Russell’s collaboration with the nazis cannot be considered collaboration with the enemy. He was merely abiding by the tried and trusted strategy of “my enemies enemy is my friend.” Furthermore, the crimes of the nazis were not fully revealed to the world until long after Russell initial contact! His motivation was Irish nationalism, not support for Nazi anti-Semitic policies.


Furthermore Russell was born at the end of the 19th Century, a century that saw Irelands population drop by half (over 4 million people). This loss of people through death and emigration was a direct result of British policies imposed on this small nation. It was our holocaust!! (Oh sorry we’re not allowed talk about the British in such terms are we!! Its not politically correct!!) Nevertheless it is true!

The Jewish have the right idea. “Never forgive, never forget.” The current generation of Irish have no right to “forgive or forget” the attempted extermination of the Irish people by the British. We should live in peace, but never forget!

Eaten bread is soon forgotten, and that is certainly true in Ireland. It’s easy to judge those people that went before us. But remember, whether you like it or not, your comfortable life is built on that foundation set by people like Russell. Like all mere mortals he had his flaws, but his intentions were good. Hindsight is wonderful and so is your freedom.

Fratton Fred

Sean Russel was a blood thirsty terrorist. His S-plan resulted in innocent people being killed and injured.

By 1940 it was well documented and known throughout europe that the Nazis persecuted jews, Romas and other minority groups in both Germany and the countries they had invaded. However, Sean Russell chose to ignore this and sought their help.

He was either filled with hatred and had a lust for blood, or he was a ****ing idiot.

just because he pulled on the uniform of the IRA, it does not make him a hero and it is of no surprise to me that people would want to vandalise his statue.

Adding all the **** about it being indestructable as well was just asking for trouble.

In these troubled times, it amazes me that people consider repairing his stutue a sensible thing to spend money on.

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sean Russel was a blood thirsty terrorist. His S-plan resulted in innocent people being killed and injured.

Was every innocent Irish person killed due to the british forces on this island, the black and tans, auxilliaries etc - were they all killed by terrorists too ? Should some thuggish vandals tear down every monument in britain that any of their number are mentioned on?

I have said it before but I think Ireland needs a memorial to the british army members who lost their lives in 1916 & the war of independence. This does not mean you need to agree with everything they did.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

By 1940 it was well documented and known throughout europe that the Nazis persecuted jews, Romas and other minority groups in both Germany and the countries they had invaded. However, Sean Russell chose to ignore this and sought their help.

Except jewish national interests are not Irish national interests and he was Irish and not jewish. The extent of what was known at that time is something you conveniently neglect to mention. Throughout history the british govt would agree that in reality you can not only deal with people who you are 100% in agreement with. Go back as far as Saddam in the early 1980's (not to mention just about every african tinpot dictator at one point or another) for an illustration of a genocidal killer america and britain both fully supported.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

He was either filled with hatred and had a lust for blood, or he was a ****ing idiot.

This is your belief and you are entitled to it. It is not mine.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

just because he pulled on the uniform of the IRA, it does not make him a hero and it is of no surprise to me that people would want to vandalise his statue.

The man fought in 1916 and the Irish war of Independence, as an Irish person it is retarded to vandalise his statue.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Adding all the **** about it being indestructable as well was just asking for trouble.

The war graves commission choice of words in describing the statue are not a justification for thuggish vandalism.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In these troubled times, it amazes me that people consider repairing his stutue a sensible thing to spend money on.

By that logic if political extremists vandalise public property we should accept that we effectively have given them a veto on public monuments ?

If they dont approve we should what take them down ? Does that extend to islamic extremists vandalising christian monuments ? Or republican extremists vandalising a monument that mentions victims of terrorism ? What about synagogues or orange halls, what about loyalists removing the dublin bombings plaque ? - 'in these troubled economic times' should we accept that too ? I don't think so to be perfectly honest with you - giving thugs a power of veto over which public monuments we can have would be short sighted in the extreme.

Fratton Fred

I'll remember to vandalise the Black and Tan memorial next time I see it.

The nurembourg laws had already been passed and the Kristallnacht had already happened long before Sean Russell had set foot in Germany. He knew full well what was going on and chose to ignore it.

I would have thought persecution of a race by an Imperial regime would have found a sympathetic ear on someone who was supposed to have been a socialist in the same mould as Pearse.

Onbviously not.

McArmalite

Isn't it some coincidence that this thread, the subject of which is a little favourite of Fred's, is the very first post of Rondolfus's and Fred's the first one to reply ?? :rolleyes:

Not that an Irish nationalist would ever think that anyone around here was trying to be a smart alec and dragging the forum into an " The IRA did this, the IRA did that, the IRA did the other " discussion forum like they did in the past and almost had the forum ruined

If you want to talk about " blood thirsty terrorist " and " innocent people being killed and injured. " Sean Russell wouldn't have a look in with british ' heros 's who have memorials all over the place to such as the fat, ugly, drunkard Churchill or the cowardly serial killer 'Bomber' Harris and his cronies.

Morlar

Sorry but there is no rule which says republicans have to be socialists. Kristallnacht at that time was not viewed as it is now. The nuremberg laws . . . what about the segregation laws in the united states ? The eugenics, sterilisation of alcoholics and mentally ill which took place in the good old us of a ? You can not judge historical figures by our current standards -there is a context to everything and the ww2 context varies considerably over a relatively short period of time.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

Sorry but there is no rule which says republicans have to be socialists. Kristallnacht at that time was not viewed as it is now. The nuremberg laws . . . what about the segregation laws in the united states ? The eugenics, sterilisation of alcoholics and mentally ill which took place in the good old us of a ? You can not judge historical figures by our current standards -there is a context to everything and the ww2 context varies considerably over a relatively short period of time.

That's a good point, although I still find it hard to believe that Sean Russell was not aware of the situation in Germany in 1940.

For me it is the blind acceptance that because he was involved in the 1916 uprising, he must be a good man and deserving of a statue that pisses me off, although i would be more pissed off if it was state funded.

And err no McArmalite, i am not the OP:rolleyes:

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's a good point, although I still find it hard to believe that Sean Russell was not aware of the situation in Germany in 1940.

For me it is the blind acceptance that because he was involved in the 1916 uprising, he must be a good man and deserving of a statue that pisses me off, although i would be more pissed off if it was state funded.

And err no McArmalite, i am not the OP:rolleyes:

The Sean Russell statue seems to have an infatuation for you. Still statues to some of the worst war criminals in human history such as the fat windbag Churchill, Drake, Raleigh, Gordon of Khartoum, Rhodes etc don't bother you in the slightest. I suppose that's the kind of view produced by the british empire, the cancer of humanity :rolleyes:

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And err no McArmalite, i am not the OP:rolleyes:

Ofcourse Fred.

brianthebard

Morlar and Fred you both make good points. You have imagine that Russell was not the first man during WWII to repeat the old mantra that my enemy's enemy is my friend, or England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity. Germany had been an (unuseful) ally to the Rebels in 1916, and France in 1798, it was almost inevitable that someone would look for help from Nazi Germany. That does not absolve either Russell or the Nazi regime, at all, its simply a reason why it seemed like a good idea to him.

To the OP, I suggest you email your local county councillors and other local politicans, last year there was a 1798 commemorative statue in Sligo vandalised and myself and a number of other boardsies all emailed the county council to have it fixed, which they did (fairly) quickly afterwards. If you want to post your email and the responses you get here, as well as the email address of the relevant county council people, I for one would be happy to email them as well to lend support to having the statue fixed up. This information can be found online already so its ok to post such details.

walrusgumble

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sean Russel was a blood thirsty terrorist. His S-plan resulted in innocent people being killed and injured.

By 1940 it was well documented and known throughout europe that the Nazis persecuted jews, Romas and other minority groups in both Germany and the countries they had invaded. However, Sean Russell chose to ignore this and sought their help.

He was either filled with hatred and had a lust for blood, or he was a ****ing idiot.

just because he pulled on the uniform of the IRA, it does not make him a hero and it is of no surprise to me that people would want to vandalise his statue.

Adding all the **** about it being indestructable as well was just asking for trouble.

In these troubled times, it amazes me that people consider repairing his stutue a sensible thing to spend money on.

yes, it was documented about the persecution. Dev Valera was fully aware and kept up to date about the situation. Despite strict censor due to neutrality, Ireland still managed to get information from Britain via the BBC, British Newspapers, word from returning Irish from Britian etc.

However, noting some historians work around this time, (Ireland during the "emergency" and noting from stories from the auld wans, at times, people did not know what and who to believe - be it from the brits, americans, germans or soviets propaganda / news reels. Even Britian and America found it very difficult to understand/comprehend or believe what they learned during the liberations of the camps and whilst at the trials.

it is incorrect to say it was "well documented". Yes there were confirmed facts... but it took the trials and inquiries etc after the war to scoop out all the facts.

the IRA at that time, like during WW1 did not care what was going on in Europe or elsewhere. THey had their "own war" to fight, and where, considering precedent, willing to speak to any group or country that may assist them in achieving their aims. - No one bated an eyelid for Ireland, bar America, but then only after pressure from Irish Americans and decent people in Britian.

Britian were in no position to preach to the nation as sectarianism was still occuring in the six counties and b specials were still about. Granted not in the same chaos as seen during the 1920's.

I don't see him as a hereo. Granted he and some others in the IRA at that time where border line fans of Nazism but its nothing compared to Eoin O'Duffy and his ilk who actually went to Spain and fought with Fascism and tried to or at least be seen to be pally with Mussolini.

incidently, I know Ireland's acceptance of war refugees was terrible (they had their reasons) but what was Britian's record with taking in people of the Jewish faith? this is a genuine question. There was not really a criteria then as we know it now. I think Ireland tended to see what economic benefit they (a refugee / groups of same) to the country

MarchDub

Not sure if we should worry about the vandalizing of statues as if it were a new or unique thing - there is plenty of history attached to that and plenty of statues that give offense to those who suffered on the receiving end of their protagonists’ policies.

I work with a German man whose family barely escaped Dresden when he was 2 years old and was carried by his young mother as she ran through the streets of Dresden to a train. German civilian life meant little to the allies. Bomber Harris's 'heroic' statue in London is a great source of insult to him. I can well understand. I could also mention Cromwell's statue outside of the House of Commons as being an insult to many Irish - but, hey, most of their statues would insult us and/or our fellow colonials. The Empire was not a gift to them - they had to steal it [it was armed robbery] – and the statues dedicated to the success of conquest are not universally beloved by the temporally conquered.

I think we Irish have the best idea. Give the statues nicknames as a way of reducing the heroic to caricature. Queen Victoria ‘s stately statue – removed from Leinster House after the Dail took up residence – was referred to by caustic Dubliners as “the auld bitch”.

Morlar

MarchDub wrote: »

I think we Irish have the best idea. Give the statues nicknames as a way of reducing the heroic to caricature. Queen Victoria ‘s stately statue – removed from Leinster House after the Dail took up residence – was referred to by caustic Dubliners as “the auld bitch”.

I saw that statue ! It was given by the Irish govt to Australia - it is outside with is effectively a shopping mall/victorian arcade in Sydney. It is either this queen victoria statue or another q.v. statue from Dublin somewhere.

I think the scale of civilian death in Germany (and in particular Dresden) by firebombing is reason enough to be offended by bomber harris' statue personally. There was also a campaign of destroying statues and monuments in Ireland too, the Nelson Pillar and the ones in Phoenix park which I would understand in the context. It would be ludicrous for one capital city to have a centrepiece statue commemorating someone who represented an army of occupation.

The Russel statue is a different story in my view, he was Irish and among people like Dan Breen and Tom Barry fought in 1916 and the War of Independence. So he tried to secure arms from Soviet Russia (after the ukrainian holocaust and horrific suppressions) he also tried to gain arms from Germany before anything meaningful was known about what was going on there. The thugs doing this vandalism are just that - thugs. I don't care which camp they come from, whether they are (as some media has suspected a 'zionist group') left wing wackjobs, or even if it turned out to be right wing nutjobs they would still be wrong.

MarchDub

Morlar wrote: »

I saw that statue ! It was given by the Irish govt to Australia - it is outside with is effectively a shopping mall/victorian arcade in Sydney. It is either this queen victoria statue or another q.v. statue from Dublin somewhere.

Yes, that's it. They shipped it down there sometime in the early 1990s.

Morlar wrote: »

The Russel statue is a different story in my view, he was Irish and among people like Dan Breen and Tom Barry fought in 1916 and the War of Independence. So he tried to secure arms from Soviet Russia (after the ukrainian holocaust and horrific suppressions) he also tried to gain arms from Germany before anything meaningful was known about what was going on there. The thugs doing this vandalism are just that - thugs. I don't care which camp they come from, whether they are (as some media has suspected a 'zionist group') left wing wackjobs, or even if it turned out to be right wing nutjobs they would still be wrong.

Agree - I was replying to the original poster who has not been back since and still has only 1 post to his credit. Funny that....wonder why?

joolsveer

Link to the statue of "the auld bitch" in Sydney.
http://www.publicartaroundtheworld.com/Queen_Victoria_Statue.html

Morlar

This one here ;

http://www.militaria-archive.com/berlin/content/8_large.html

was christened 'The Tomb of the unknown Rapist' by many women in post war Berlin. Dublin was not the only city to give derogatory names to statues imposed by occuppiers on the local population

walrusgumble

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'll remember to vandalise the Black and Tan memorial next time I see it.

The nurembourg laws had already been passed and the Kristallnacht had already happened long before Sean Russell had set foot in Germany. He knew full well what was going on and chose to ignore it.

I would have thought persecution of a race by an Imperial regime would have found a sympathetic ear on someone who was supposed to have been a socialist in the same mould as Pearse.

Onbviously not.

pearse was no socialist, certaintly not a fully committed socialist like connolly

there were not many countries too bothered about ireland's problems during the period of 1916-1923, with exception on pressure of irish disporia in host countries.

Snickers Man

Morlar wrote: »

This one here ;

http://www.militaria-archive.com/berlin/content/8_large.html

was christened 'The Tomb of the unknown Rapist' by many women in post war Berlin. Dublin was not the only city to give derogatory names to statues imposed by occuppiers on the local population

A great tradition, though.

Nelson's pillar was known as "the one-eyed adulterer" and the memorial in Stephen's Green to the Irish fallen on the Empire side in the Boer War was, and is, known as Traitors' Gate.

What sort of name could we give Russell's statue?

The Nark in the Park?
The Fart by the Dart?

Not really in form today. Any better suggestions?;)

McArmalite

Morlar wrote: »

The thugs doing this vandalism are just that - thugs. I don't care which camp they come from, whether they are (as some media has suspected a 'zionist group') left wing wackjobs, or even if it turned out to be right wing nutjobs they would still be wrong.

Yeah I've wondered that myself. Possibly left wing whackjobs as you say. It also should be noted that the loyalists planted a small bomb at Wolfe Tones grave in the early 70's. The IRA responded by blowing up a statue to Preacher 'Roaring' Hugh Hanna who was the Ian Paisley of the late 1800's ( Paisley probably modelled himself on him). But I suspect it's the work of some zionist little gang. If those respondcible are ever caught, the charge and fine will be the least of their worries as certain organisations, PIRA, CIRA, RIRA, or whatever will undoubtably be letting them know what they think of their actions ............OUCH :eek:

McArmalite

MarchDub wrote: »

Not sure if we should worry about the vandalizing of statues as if it were a new or unique thing - there is plenty of history attached to that and plenty of statues that give offense to those who suffered on the receiving end of their protagonists’ policies.

I work with a German man whose family barely escaped Dresden when he was 2 years old and was carried by his young mother as she ran through the streets of Dresden to a train. German civilian life meant little to the allies. Bomber Harris's 'heroic' statue in London is a great source of insult to him. I can well understand. I could also mention Cromwell's statue outside of the House of Commons as being an insult to many Irish - but, hey, most of their statues would insult us and/or our fellow colonials. The Empire was not a gift to them - they had to steal it [it was armed robbery] – and the statues dedicated to the success of conquest are not universally beloved by the temporally conquered.

I think we Irish have the best idea. Give the statues nicknames as a way of reducing the heroic to caricature. Queen Victoria ‘s stately statue – removed from Leinster House after the Dail took up residence – was referred to by caustic Dubliners as “the auld bitch”.

Yes, a brit ahs some neck whinning about Sean Russell when Russell wouldn't have a look in at 'hero's' like Bomber Harris. But sure that's typical, they just LOVE themselves. Here's a quote from Harris that typifies this british 'hero's' attitude. Even Goering had more humanity in him " As for Dresden, it's simple, any psychiatrist can explain it: it's all to do with German brass bands and Dresden shepherdesses. All I can say is that all the German towns put together aren't worth the bones of a British grenadier. "

Fratton Fred

Snickers Man wrote: »

A great tradition, though.

Nelson's pillar was known as "the one-eyed adulterer" and the memorial in Stephen's Green to the Irish fallen on the Empire side in the Boer War was, and is, known as Traitors' Gate.

What sort of name could we give Russell's statue?

The Nark in the Park?
The Fart by the Dart?

Not really in form today. Any better suggestions?;)

the Nazi in the Parkzi?

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the Nazi in the Parkzi?

'The Übermensch in the Übertrench-coat'.

/sorry, I will get my uber-coat.

Zebra3

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sean Russel was a blood thirsty terrorist. His S-plan resulted in innocent people being killed and injured.

By 1940 it was well documented and known throughout europe that the Nazis persecuted jews, Romas and other minority groups in both Germany and the countries they had invaded. However, Sean Russell chose to ignore this and sought their help.

He was either filled with hatred and had a lust for blood, or he was a ****ing idiot.

just because he pulled on the uniform of the IRA, it does not make him a hero and it is of no surprise to me that people would want to vandalise his statue.

Adding all the **** about it being indestructable as well was just asking for trouble.

In these troubled times, it amazes me that people consider repairing his stutue a sensible thing to spend money on.

I'd be delighted to know your opinion on the US and Britain, considering the latter raped their way around the world and the former was more than happy to employ known Nazi war crimanls post-1945.

Do you protest at British Army memorials and recruitments considering the atrocities they have carried out in the past while occupying foreign lands far and near? Whatever Sean Russell may have done, he certainly didn't hand part of Czechoslovakia over to Hitler.....

Fratton Fred

Its funny, one thread slates Britain for declaring war, the next for appeasing Hitler.

I don't protest about much to be honest, certainly not statues to people who I think do not deserve it.

If people want to waste their money on a statue good luck to them, but surely by now someone would have twigged that maybe a lot of people think him unworthy enough to deface it.

I have to laugh as well, apparantly I am not allowed an opinion because Britain did some bad things in the past, yet mention the hypocricy of some republicans and I am engaging in whataboutery.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sean Russel was a blood thirsty terrorist. His S-plan resulted in innocent people being killed and injured.

By 1940 it was well documented and known throughout europe that the Nazis persecuted jews, Romas and other minority groups in both Germany and the countries they had invaded. However, Sean Russell chose to ignore this and sought their help..

He sought assistance in 1939 and was dead by August 1940. There was nothing in the public domain to make Germanys treatment of minorities appear any worse than Poland's, Russia's Italy's or a number of other states, at that stage.

Arguing therefore that Russell was a "nazi" because he sought German help is akin to arguing the founding fathers of the US were monarchists because they sought French help, or that the zionist Irgun group were likewise Nazis for seeking aid in the same place.

Exile 1798

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sean Russel was a blood thirsty terrorist. His S-plan resulted in innocent people being killed and injured.

By 1940 it was well documented and known throughout europe that the Nazis persecuted jews, Romas and other minority groups in both Germany and the countries they had invaded. However, Sean Russell chose to ignore this and sought their help.

He was either filled with hatred and had a lust for blood, or he was a ****ing idiot.

just because he pulled on the uniform of the IRA, it does not make him a hero and it is of no surprise to me that people would want to vandalise his statue.

Adding all the **** about it being indestructable as well was just asking for trouble.

In these troubled times, it amazes me that people consider repairing his stutue a sensible thing to spend money on.

In 1945 Britain had reports of what was going on in the death camps and were being urged by the underground to bomb them to prevent further genocide - this at the stage then they controlled the air and the camps were well within range - they failed do so. Even with all their intelligence reports and testimony, without physically being there they simply couldn't imagine the full horror of what was going on.

So it seems a bit much don't you think to heap the crimes of NAZI Germany onto Sean Russell who died in 1940 - a time when the NAZI Party was holding rallies in the United States. Consider what was really knowable at the time and consider the long history of Irish Nationalists securing aid from European powers in conflict with England.

On that basis, Russell did little wrong. Just as Chamberlin did little wrong in trying to avoid another devastating world war, though this doesn't fit into the WWII narrative that you can fit onto a post card.

paulgreene

I have just added the Sean Russell statue to the map of Dublin statues on www. awaycity.com

You can rate and edit information here:

http://www.awaycity.com/wiki/Statue_Sean_Russell

Does anyone know the actual sculptor of this bronze version?

Morlar

This statue has now been re-vandalised. So far I count Rightwing, Leftwing (possibly zionists) and now hippies have gotten in on the act & had a go at this statue.

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/mystery-artist-turns-swastika-graffiti-into-symbols-of-peace-1861215.html

A STATUE of controversial Republican leader Sean Russell has been attacked again. But this time, the unknown artists have transformed the Nazi swastikas daubed on the monument into peace symbols with the word "love" on them.

The statue, in Fairview Park, Dublin, was vandalised with Nazi symbols, just a few weeks after it was refurbished following a similiar attack.

The statue has been repeatedly vandalised in recent years. In one incident where the head was knocked off by an anti-fascist group.

A fortnight ago, red, white and black flags, identical to those used by the Nazi party in Germany, were painted on the base of the statue.

Now the swastikas have been replaced by the symbol used by the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament with the word "love" painted on the plinth.

Less than a month ago, the commemoration was spray painted with the slogans "Nazi scum" and "Hitler's friend". The National Graves Associaton, which erected the statue in memory of IRA volunteers who died in the 1930s and 1940s, has refurbished the statue after previous attacks.

Russell, who was born in Fairview in 1893, took part in the Easter Rising and during the 1930s became IRA chief of staff. His links with German intelligence during World War Two led critics to accuse him of being pro Nazi. He died aboard a German submarine bringing him to Ireland in 1940 and was buried at sea.

Nodin

Morlar wrote: »

This statue has now been re-vandalised. So far I count Rightwing, Leftwing (possibly zionists) and now hippies have gotten in on the act & had a go at this statue.
.

No, just more gobshites....