Starting Forestry

psicic

I realise what a beginner-type question this is, but I did a search on the forum and found nothing, so I was wondering if anyone could help with their knowledge and experience of starting in forestry.

I've been reading up on Coillte and on getting them to come plant land. Essentially it seems to be the case that it's not going to cost me anything to plant the land with trees as Coillte funds the initial planting from a grant. Additionally, they'll fence the forest, provide forestry services and crop insurance for the first four years.

After this, I can opt to pay them to maintain the forest or not.

Regardless of what I decide to do - i.e. continue cultivating a crop with a view to felling the trees or merely maintaining a natural amenity in the shape of the forest - I'll still get a yearly payment per acre of forested land for the first twenty years. I can have them thin the trees etc... and they'll do this for a percentage of the profit.

So, what's the catch?

Are there hidden costs?

Essentially, I'm asking this because I'm in the process of buying a property in Leitrim. It comes with seven acres - with the option to buy an additional 20 or so. The land is poor but familiar - my family would have had a farm in similar circumstances about twenty years ago. It would be perfect for planting trees or having sheep on - little else.

If there were no hidden costs in the forestry route, I would put in a bid in for some of the extra land, and let the yearly forestry grant (I think around 80 per acre) assist (if not cover) the additional mortgage cost for twenty years. It's better I have the land rather then it remain unused (which is what is looking like happening). However, I don't want to be engaging in a fools errand and taking on a huge amount of extra costs.

Any advice is appreciated.

r-i-tect

From my understanding

Fencing covers you to an extent (7 acres should be ok, so there should be no charge, an extra 20 may add a cost to you)

After the 15/20 years are up (depending if you were in reps etc.), the removal of the trees takes up to 5 years and you don't get paid for this period (correct me if I'm wrong, but the greenbelt guy explained it this way to me)

blue5000

Only catch I can think of is that premiums are not index linked and this year they were cut by about 8% at the stroke of a pen. you will also need to insure it yourself from yr 5 onwards.

The_Conductor

There can be extra costs associated with the afforestation- these costs tend to be site specific- but can be broadly discussed.

1. Depending on the site- its entirely possible that drainage channels, roads and buffer zones- may take up a startling amount of the site (this is particularly relevant on such a small site).

2. You've already said its poor land- only fit for a few sheep or forestry- if it is as poor as you are indicating- you should be aware that it may be totally inappropriate to expect to start harvesting saleable products from year 20 onwards. Its entirely normal to reach up to the second or third thinning before a cost neutral position is achieved.

3. You are above the threshold for planning permission (yes- you need planning permission for forestry!!!). Councils have been getting very sticky about permission.

4. You would need to contact Coillte/Greenbelt/Western Forestry Cooperative (or whoever else may be operating in the area) to confirm that they were willing to afforest it for you in exchange for the planting and establishment lumpsums. The grant has been cut this year- and the proposals are for more cuts next year. Its entirely possible the grant may not be sufficient to cover the establishment.

5. If you do bid on the extra 20 hectares, keep in mind that you may possibly create a rather poisonous atmosphere locally- as many locals do not appreciate the idea of productive farm land (even if its only capable of supporting sheep) being put into forestry.

6. If you are forward thinking, and accept that given site and local conditions- you are unlikely to achieve a saleable crop for 40-50 years- you might consider mixes other than Sitka Spruce monoculture. You get a much better grant for mixes- and better again if you include broadleaves. Some hardy broadleaved species- such as birch, are now accepted in mixes (and high time too).

There are a few professional foresters who frequent this forum- so do post any questions you may have, I am sure that you'll get an answer.

The_Conductor

r-i-tect wrote: »

After the 15/20 years are up (depending if you were in reps etc.), the removal of the trees takes up to 5 years and you don't get paid for this period (correct me if I'm wrong, but the greenbelt guy explained it this way to me)

Sorry r-i-tect - what do you mean by the removal of the trees taking up to 5 years? When you sign up for forestry- you have changed the landuse to forestry cover- and if you 'remove the trees' are contractually obliged to replant. If you wish to retire the land back into general agriculture again- you would have to repay all grants received- both the constitution and establishment grants, all premia and the non-replanting penalty. Its incredibly expensive.

I really hope the Greenbelt guy explained this to you.

The_Conductor

blue5000 wrote: »

Only catch I can think of is that premiums are not index linked and this year they were cut by about 8% at the stroke of a pen. you will also need to insure it yourself from yr 5 onwards.

Firecover is almost impossible to get from age 10 onwards in the area (its prohibitively expensive) because of the incidence of fires some years back. I think I've posted my experiences on this forum previously- in short- we lost about 80 acres of forestry in the area, and very almost had an innocent flock of sheep barbequed by idiots with a camp fire. :mad:

With respect of forestry premia- they are wholly funded by national government funds- and look very dodgy in the context of a government looking for likely targets to cut come budget time.

Johnnyr

smccarrick wrote: »

3. You are above the threshold for planning permission (yes- you need planning permission for forestry!!!). Councils have been getting very sticky about permission.

4. You would need to contact Coillte/Greenbelt/Western Forestry Cooperative (or whoever else may be operating in the area) to confirm that they were willing to afforest it for you in exchange for the planting and establishment lumpsums. The grant has been cut this year- and the proposals are for more cuts next year. Its entirely possible the grant may not be sufficient to cover the establishment.

5. If you do bid on the extra 20 hectares, keep in mind that you may possibly create a rather poisonous atmosphere locally- as many locals do not appreciate the idea of productive farm land (even if its only capable of supporting sheep) being put into forestry.

Just a few corrections on previous above post.

There is no threshold for planning permission for afforestation. Planning permission is generally not required. Some applications are referred to county councils for there attention, in case there may be issues such as landscape.

The premium payments were cut by 8% this year, the planting grant remains unchanged.

As for creating a poisonous atmosphere, if the land is of poor quality it may not be in that much demand locally. Maybe thats why it is being sold privately, who knows. Anyway I wouldn't let it hold you back, unless there is a family dispute of some kind.... then stay clear.

Make sure to get plenty of advice. If the land is of very poor quality it may not be suitable for planting. Teagasc forestry advisors provide free advice.

Good luck with it

r-i-tect

smccarrick wrote: »

Sorry r-i-tect - what do you mean by the removal of the trees taking up to 5 years? When you sign up for forestry- you have changed the landuse to forestry cover- and if you 'remove the trees' are contractually obliged to replant. If you wish to retire the land back into general agriculture again- you would have to repay all grants received- both the constitution and establishment grants, all premia and the non-replanting penalty. Its incredibly expensive.

I really hope the Greenbelt guy explained this to you.

It was nearly a year ago I looked into this, but the Geenbelt guy said if I went down the reps route I would get paid up the 20th year and then the plantation would be removed on the 25th year, so there was a 5 year period where I would not receive any payments.

It was the part about changing the land back to general agriculture that put me off the whole idea. It seemed very gey and expensive in the long run.

The_Conductor

r-i-tect wrote: »

It was nearly a year ago I looked into this, but the Geenbelt guy said if I went down the reps route I would get paid up the 20th year and then the plantation would be removed on the 25th year, so there was a 5 year period where I would not receive any payments.

It was the part about changing the land back to general agriculture that put me off the whole idea. It seemed very gey and expensive in the long run.

Sorry- he said the plantation 'would be removed' in the 25th year?
Presuming totally bizzare growth rates- for Sitka Spruce- you'd be doing well to get a crop off in 35 years, 40 might be more normal- and in worse conditions or using a slower growing provinces- it could be much longer.

If the guy suggested you would clearfell a mature forestry crop from the site in a 25 year window- I'd suggest you report him. You most certainly would get thinnings from the site- but to even suggest clearfelling is bizarre......

r-i-tect

smccarrick wrote: »

Sorry- he said the plantation 'would be removed' in the 25th year?
Presuming totally bizzare growth rates- for Sitka Spruce- you'd be doing well to get a crop off in 35 years, 40 might be more normal- and in worse conditions or using a slower growing provinces- it could be much longer.

If the guy suggested you would clearfell a mature forestry crop from the site in a 25 year window- I'd suggest you report him. You most certainly would get thinnings from the site- but to even suggest clearfelling is bizarre......

That was the bottom line.
I spoke to neighbour the next day who was considering doing the same and he felt it all didn't add up.

JohnThomas09

Johnnyr wrote: »

As for creating a poisonous atmosphere, if the land is of poor quality it may not be in that much demand locally. Maybe thats why it is being sold privately, who knows. Anyway I wouldn't let it hold you back, unless there is a family dispute of some kind.... then stay clear.

i would be very careful if i were the OP,he says that the land is in Leitrim.I know from personal experience that no matter how bad the land is someone will always refuse to a stranger planting forestry here.They think around those parts that if you are a local farmer you should have a say on what goes on with every farm that isnt owned locally.Ask around the area before you buy anything.

Caoimhín

smccarrick wrote: »

With respect of forestry premia- they are wholly funded by national government funds- and look very dodgy in the context of a government looking for likely targets to cut come budget time.

Just an update on that; The Forest Service are now only issuing technical approval, that is approval for all planting is now dependant of what the department of finance gives to the Forest Service when the budget estimates are announced next November.
If you have financial approval already then the planting can go ahead because it will come out of this years budget, if not, it will be a waiting game until the budget is allocated.
There is talk at the moment of the government asking the EU for funding for all forest schemes but that could mean that because of the shortfall, planting may not be fully grant aided.

BargainHunter

JohnThomas09 wrote: »

i would be very careful if i were the OP,he says that the land is in Leitrim.I know from personal experience that no matter how bad the land is someone will always refuse to a stranger planting forestry here.They think around those parts that if you are a local farmer you should have a say on what goes on with every farm that isnt owned locally.Ask around the area before you buy anything.

John, what was your personal experience in this area?

Im looking at buying an old farmhouse on 4 acres and planting a small native forest. Are you saying I should try and find out in advance if the locals will approve or not?

The_Conductor

BargainHunter wrote: »

John, what was your personal experience in this area?

Im looking at buying an old farmhouse on 4 acres and planting a small native forest. Are you saying I should try and find out in advance if the locals will approve or not?

People are funny.
Its very possible that the locals may have already sat down over a few pints in the pub and decided who is going to buy the land and what they are going to do with it. If you have ties to the area- and cultivate those ties- you're probably fine. If you're viewed as a blow-in from Dublin- the reception may not be quite as welcoming.......

Caoimhín

smccarrick; People are funny.

I have been shot at on a number of occasions.

BargainHunter

smccarrick wrote: »

People are funny.
Its very possible that the locals may have already sat down over a few pints in the pub and decided who is going to buy the land and what they are going to do with it.

But how do I find out, before buying, if Im going to be made welcome or not? I dont want to buy into an area thats going to be hostile to me.

The only thing I can think of is to avoid outbidding any local bidders for the land Im interested in. But thats hard to do, as every estate agent will always claim there are other interested bidders, in order to drive up the sale price.

The_Conductor

Caoimhín wrote: »

I have been shot at on a number of occasions.

I've had a tractor set on fire. 60 acres of established foretry burnt to the ground (and sheep incinerated in the process), tyres slashed and machinery stolen.

When I was a student- it wasn't unusual to find planting and site preparation vehicles vandalised or burnt out on a Monday morning when we returned after the weekend.

I was never shot at though........(actually I was chased with a machette in the Glen of the Downes by environmental protestors)........

The_Conductor

BargainHunter wrote: »

But how do I find out, before buying, if Im going to be made welcome or not? I dont want to buy into an area thats going to be hostile to me.

The only thing I can think of is to avoid outbidding any local bidders for the land Im interested in. But thats hard to do, as every estate agent will always claim there are other interested bidders, in order to drive up the sale price.

My favourite course of action is to ask the local postie..... Not exactly scientific- but postmen/women tend to have an uncanny knowledge of the areas they work in- and inevitably are chatterboxes.

BargainHunter

smccarrick wrote: »

My favourite course of action is to ask the local postie..... Not exactly scientific- but postmen/women tend to have an uncanny knowledge of the areas they work in- and inevitably are chatterboxes.

Cheers, thats not a bad idea.

Having said all that, Ill probably just buy the land I want anyway, and to hell with the locals. Im only looking for 5-10 acres. If they have a problem with a "blow-in" buying a measly 10 acres, then thats their problem. Ill secure my property and shoot back at anyone that shoots at me.

bragafc

Planted approx. 1.8h in Leitrim myself. You maybe lucky and buy beside someone normal, but you'll probably need to have a tough skin as most do not like trees! Sounds crazy, but that is the reality.

BargainHunter

bragafc wrote: »

Planted approx. 1.8h in Leitrim myself. You maybe lucky and buy beside someone normal, but you'll probably need to have a tough skin as most do not like trees! Sounds crazy, but that is the reality.

I can understand peoples dislike of spruce plantations. But I cant, for the life of me understand why someone would have a problem with a native deciduous forest.

The_Conductor

BargainHunter wrote: »

I can understand peoples dislike of spruce plantations. But I cant, for the life of me understand why someone would have a problem with a native deciduous forest.

There are few suitable areas in Leitrim for 2ha of native deciduous forest- the problem with deciduous forest is it tends to need the better sites, putting it into direct competition with traditional farming- and thus seen as a negative by many farmers who see the land as 'wasted'.

There is a perception that forestry is best suited to sites- where its impossible to do anything else (some of the hillsides I've seen afforested would make the hardiest of mountain sheep tremor at the thought of their slopes). Just because you 'can' induce Sitka Spruce or lodgepole pine to grow in appalling conditions- does not necessarily mean its a good idea though. When you do get a crop growing in these conditions- inevitably its poor in form, and liable to windblow. When these happen- it gets pointed to by many farmers- as why forestry is such a waste (talk about self-fulfilling prophesies......)

S.

BargainHunter

smccarrick wrote: »

it gets pointed to by many farmers- as why forestry is such a waste

I understand that, but if I want to "waste" 10 acres of my own land, thats my business. I cant understand why these so called "locals" get so bothered about what other people do with their own land. Why dont they mind their own business.

I intend to put in a very low ball bid for the the house and 4 acres Im currently looking at. The "locals" will have every opportunity to outbid me. Im happy to give them first refusal on the property. But if there are no local bids, and I buy it, Im going to damn well do what I like with it. I will never let myself be bullied by scumbags, whether they are rural or urban.

The_Conductor

While I understand what you're saying- at the end of the day- you really do not need a fortress mentality- life is far too short for that sort of crap. It wouldn't take a lot to make an effort to be seen to be trying to be part of the community- and in time that alone will bring acceptance on a level.

Moving into a rural farming community- is not the same as buying a house in an estate in West Dublin- where you may live for years without ever knowing who your neighbours are. People do rely on each other- and there is still a sense of community- that has all but died in an urban setting.

You are buying into the whole packet- while you may own the house and land, and be entitled to do with it as you so choose, it would be wise to develop a good rapport with your neighbours. You might never know when you may need their help with something- or vice versa. When our forestry was set alight- over half of it was saved, mainly through the hard work some of our neighbours did assisting the local firebrigade.

Try and think of the wider picture.

BargainHunter

smccarrick wrote: »

You are buying into the whole packet- while you may own the house and land, and be entitled to do with it as you so choose, it would be wise to develop a good rapport with your neighbours. You might never know when you may need their help with something

I agree 100%. But developing "a good rapport" does not mean you allow people to attack you or your property.

Anyway moving on, Im suprised to hear you had a forest fire, which I thought were pretty rare in Ireland, given the wet climate. Is there a thread with any more details on what happened there?

The_Conductor

BargainHunter wrote: »

I agree 100%. But developing "a good rapport" does not mean you allow people to attack you or your property.

Anyway moving on, Im suprised to hear you had a forest fire, which I thought were pretty rare in Ireland, given the wet climate. Is there a thread with any more details on what happened there?

It was almost 12 years ago at this stage. I never started a thread on it in here. Not sure I have a lot to say about it- we used a reconstitution grant to replant and are already at first thinning stage for the conifers, and road building in the deciduous stands.

S.

BargainHunter

smccarrick wrote: »

It was almost 12 years ago at this stage. I never started a thread on it in here. Not sure I have a lot to say about it- we used a reconstitution grant to replant and are already at first thinning stage for the conifers, and road building in the deciduous stands.

I guess I was curious because I didnt think Irish forests could burn down. I mean spruce wood does not generally burn. Was the fire preceded by a number of weeks of dry warm weather? Was the fifre burning mainly in the canopy or on the ground? Was it all spruce?

My family already has 1 acre of 30 year old spruce in a suburban location, somtimes we wonder whether we should have insurance given the number of houses around it.