Don't think we're registered with the PRTB...

January

Hi all,
I moved into a house in November of this year and signed the forms to be registered with the PRTB with the letting agent the day we got the keys.
We never received a letter acknowledging our application.

Reading through the forum, I noticed that you could check if the property was registered. So I entered the address (a couple of different ways and went through the document by scrolling) and nothing is coming up for it. The last time the information was extracted was 31st May 2009.

Is there anything I can do about this?

Ostrom

Raise it with your landlord. Are you getting receipts?

January

Money going in by bank transfer every month so have proof that we're paying.

gurramok

If landlord is indeed not registered(illegal), you can screw him by negotiating a lower rent in order to shut you up. (this happens)

The Revenue can target him for thousands of euro in undeclared income, ask yourself, whats it worth to him, a few euro in cheaper rent for you or 100 times the amount?

Thats good about bank transfer. What would worry me is the deposit in that if you have issues getting it back at the end of the lease(assuming), there might be difficulty but the good thing is that you will always have that upper hand with the Revenue as ammunition.

astrofool

Are you claiming rent relief? (you don't need his pps for this and it's worth €400 per year)

PRTB and taxes are entirely seperate issues.

January

astrofool wrote: »

Are you claiming rent relief? (you don't need his pps for this and it's worth €400 per year)

PRTB and taxes are entirely seperate issues.

Not yet, have been renting awhile and wanted to save this up... so gonna claim in a month or two.

Kintarō Hattori

This is most interesting. I didn't realize you could search a PRTB database. I've searched their website for places on our street. I've found numerous other houses and apartments............ but not ours. Is it possible to ring the PRTB and ask them if the property is listed with them?

EDIT : Damnit I just found it. Hmnn it's listed as an apartment when it's actually a house. Does that make any difference?

astrofool

I doubt it. Registration fee is the same for both. Although I thought the tenant had to sign a form for it?

I would claim the taxes asap, you never know what the govt might do to change it.

D3PO

gurramok wrote: »

If landlord is indeed not registered(illegal), you can screw him by negotiating a lower rent in order to shut you up. (this happens)

The Revenue can target him for thousands of euro in undeclared income, ask yourself, whats it worth to him, a few euro in cheaper rent for you or 100 times the amount?
.

sigh why do you assume that theres an automatic link betweek paying tax on rental income and being registered to the PRTB ? There is NO link.

gurramok

Yes there is.
http://www.prtb.ie/pubregfaq.htm

The PRTB propose to supply the Revenue Commissioners with information on unregistered tenancies of which it becomes aware so that, as well as facing criminal prosecution, the landlords in question will lose any mortgage interest relief relating to the dwelling.

From the horses mouth
http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232

astrofool

gurramok wrote: »

Yes there is.
http://www.prtb.ie/pubregfaq.htm


From the horses mouth
http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232

That is only going to work the other way around. Right now there are likely more tax compliant landlords then there is registered tenancies. Any landlord who registers a tenancy will make sure they are tax compliant.

The PRTB is itself months behind resolving cases and I don't see them being able to spend much time tracking down unregistered landlords.

Those are also proposals at the moment, rather than plan of action.

Anyway, your assertion was that an unregistered tenancy meant tax evasion, this is patently untrue, and pushing someone down that road (threatening to set the tax man on their landlord) is a recipe for disaster, and cause no end of issues for the tenants following your "advice".

gurramok

astrofool wrote: »

That is only going to work the other way around. Right now there are likely more tax compliant landlords then there is registered tenancies. Any landlord who registers a tenancy will make sure they are tax compliant.

Maybe, we don't have figures yet though see link below.

The PRTB is itself months behind resolving cases and I don't see them being able to spend much time tracking down unregistered landlords.

Those are also proposals at the moment, rather than plan of action.

Anyway, your assertion was that an unregistered tenancy meant tax evasion, this is patently untrue, and pushing someone down that road (threatening to set the tax man on their landlord) is a recipe for disaster, and cause no end of issues for the tenants following your "advice".

Its the Revenue that does the chasing and they use all the resources at their disposal including consulting the PRTB database and themselves knocking on doors. Do you remember the pilot test they did last year?
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taxman-knocking-at-doors-in-crackdown-on-rogue-landlords-1429422.html

92,000 regged, twice that number rented out, that makes 50% rogue in my maths.

What i propose is a real world scenario. If the tenant feels they are in a corner regarding any issue, they have the option of last resort to report the landlord for unpaid taxes. Its common sense.

D3PO

gurramok wrote: »

Yes there is.
http://www.prtb.ie/pubregfaq.htm


From the horses mouth
http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232

whats your point ? All that says is that the PRTB will let the revenue know to check if they are tax compliant or not.

the point is you can be tax compliant and unregistered with the PRTB they are totally seperate things .....

gurramok

D3PO wrote: »

whats your point ? All that says is that the PRTB will let the revenue know to check if they are tax compliant or not.

the point is you can be tax compliant and unregistered with the PRTB they are totally seperate things .....

I just made my point. You can have the Revenue chasing you down armed with info from the PRTB amongst many sources of information in order to be tax compliant.

Also, being unregged with the PRTB is an offence under the law. Its going to put you on their radar!!

D3PO

you implied in your first post that the OP can threaten them with a hefty tax bill. you assuming that the landlor disnt tax compliant.

PRTB registration doesnt mean anything in terms of tax complainace so why would you give that kind of advice ?

ZYX

astrofool wrote: »

That is only going to work the other way around. Right now there are likely more tax compliant landlords then there is registered tenancies. Any landlord who registers a tenancy will make sure they are tax compliant.

The PRTB is itself months behind resolving cases and I don't see them being able to spend much time tracking down unregistered landlords.

Those are also proposals at the moment, rather than plan of action.

Anyway, your assertion was that an unregistered tenancy meant tax evasion, this is patently untrue, and pushing someone down that road (threatening to set the tax man on their landlord) is a recipe for disaster, and cause no end of issues for the tenants following your "advice".

The question is, if they are not registered are they fully tax compliant as they are not allowed declare mortgage interest payments? I know they maybe but lets face it, it is unlikely.

The point about the PRTB being months behind is pretty irrelevant. It just means it may take longer for Revenue to catch up with landlords. We can be pretty certain the revenue will catch up with most landlords eventually and charge interest and late penalties. I mean once they decide to chase a particular landlord getting the information is going to be pretty easy.

gurramok

D3PO wrote: »

you implied in your first post that the OP can threaten them with a hefty tax bill. you assuming that the landlor disnt tax compliant.

PRTB registration doesnt mean anything in terms of tax complainace so why would you give that kind of advice ?

It can be a consequence of not being tax compliant hence the heavier risk is on the landlord not being regged on the PRTB.

Why on earth would a landlord not register with the PRTB despite it being an offence under the law?

You know the answer.

D3PO

gurramok wrote: »

It can be a consequence of not being tax compliant hence the heavier risk is on the landlord not being regged on the PRTB.

Why on earth would a landlord not register with the PRTB despite it being an offence under the law?

You know the answer.

beacuse there are lots and lots of landlords that have cropped up over the last number of years during the boom who dont even know who the PRTB are not to mind the legal requirment to register with them but are obviously aware of their tax requirments.

im not saying all are compliant but you cant just assume they are tax dodgets becasue they dont have a tennancy registered. some are some are just ignorant to what they should be doing as a landlord.

gurramok

Ignorance is no excuse for amateur BTL's. They are running a business and should know the relevant rules and regulations. Fine the lot of them that break the law.

D3PO

gurramok wrote: »

Ignorance is no excuse for amateur BTL's. They are running a business and should know the relevant rules and regulations. Fine the lot of them that break the law.

i didnt say it was an excuse i jsut said you cant assume that this means they are not tax compliant

ravendude

D3PO wrote: »

whats your point ? All that says is that the PRTB will let the revenue know to check if they are tax compliant or not.

the point is you can be tax compliant and unregistered with the PRTB they are totally seperate things .....

You must be registered with the PRTB in order to claim interest against rental income. Loan interest is the biggest tax deduction for buy to letters. If the revenue find out that you are not registered, they will hit you with a hefty tax bill.

The OPs land lord in all likelyhood would have a lot to loose if it was reported that they were not registered with the PRTB:

• If they are dodging tax, the revenue will probably catch up with them if they are reported as not registered with the PRTB
• If they are not dodging tax per se, they are not supposed to claim interest relief (which the vast majority of buy-to-letters are..) unless they are properly registered with the PRTB
• Also, there are penalties for non-compliance

ie. In all likelihood, the landlord is not tax compliant if they have been claiming interest relief and they are not registered with the PRTB, even if they have been submitting end of year tax returns

astrofool

ravendude wrote: »

You must be registered with the PRTB in order to claim interest against rental income.

Where on the tax regs does it say that?

gurramok

astrofool wrote: »

Where on the tax regs does it say that?

D3PO wrote:

i didnt say it was an excuse i jsut said you cant assume that this means they are not tax compliant

And for Astro..

Have a read http://www.prtb.ie/pubregfaq.htm

Landlords should be aware that the Finance Acts have been amended to explicitly provide that compliance with the registration provisions contained in the Residential Tenancies Act registration provisions is a condition of eligibility for mortgage interest relief on residential properties. It is a matter for individuals to satisfy themselves that they are in compliance with the Residential Tenancies Act. The PRTB will not routinely provide letters confirming exemption from the Act. The PRTB propose to supply the Revenue Commissioners with information on unregistered tenancies of which it becomes aware so that, as well as facing criminal prosecution, the landlords in question will lose any mortgage interest relief relating to the dwelling.

You'd swear there were unregged landlords on this forum worried about it with all the questions

ravendude

gurramok wrote: »

And for Astro..

Have a read http://www.prtb.ie/pubregfaq.htm



You'd swear there were unregged landlords on this forum worried about it with all the questions

Its number 7 on the above link.
The probability is if the landlord just registers they will be OK. I think the revenue and also the PRTB have been fairly understanding to landlords who are late in registering....kind of applying an off the record grace period. If thats even still in effect at all, its unclear how long it would last for. They're probably a lot less understanding for landlords they come across that are unregistered though, as opposed to those who voluntarily registered, albeit after a period of non-compliance.

ravendude

Also, the new end of year tax return forms explicitly ask if you registered under the PRTB, under the section for claiming interest relief on rental propertry. Falsely claiming that you are registered when not would have serious(criminal) repercussions.

www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/forms/form11.pdf

See Page 8 ( Section C Question # 202 )

If you do not tick this, they can eventually come back to you looking for you to pay back the interest relief deduction.

There's very little room for slipping through the net now with regards to the PRTB and its dangerous business for a landlord not to be compliant.

astrofool

The fact that the revenue.ie page that they link to is missing:

The following link relates to the Revenue Commissioners' requirements with regard to the registration of tenancies: http://www.revenue.ie/publications/txbrefng/tb63/tb01.htm

Seems a bit dodgy Anyway, I've seen lots of landlords who are fully tax compliant, barring registering for the PRTB. If a tenant is claiming rent relief, then the landlord will automatically get chased by revenue, without needing the PRTB.

I'd still suggest that if a tenant is going to threaten the tax man on their landlord, that the relationship has become untenable, and it would be best for both concerned to go their seperate ways.

ravendude

astrofool wrote: »

The fact that the revenue.ie page that they link to is missing:

The URL in my earlier post got garbled its fixed now.

I agree, threatening the revenue should be an utter last resort, - eg. If the landlord was trying to blatantly shaft the tenant. Not all landlords are out to screw the Revenue and some might not be compliant despite their best intentions.

astrofool

ravendude wrote: »

The URL in my earlier post got garbled its fixed now.

I agree, threatening the revenue should be an utter last resort, - eg. If the landlord was trying to blatantly shaft the tenant. Not all landlords are out to screw the Revenue and some might not be compliant despite their best intentions.

No, the link on the prtb page to the revenue site is broken.

caramel08

Hi,

I'm renewing my lease at the moment with my current landlord and I noticed a new clause in it (which wasn't in it before) which says that the "tenant agrees to waive right to PRTB legislation"..does anyone know if this is a standard clause or not? I don't know much about the PRTB but I'm not sure that waiving your right to any type of legislation would be a good idea!!

Thanks

D3PO

caramel08 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm renewing my lease at the moment with my current landlord and I noticed a new clause in it (which wasn't in it before) which says that the "tenant agrees to waive right to PRTB legislation"..does anyone know if this is a standard clause or not? I don't know much about the PRTB but I'm not sure that waiving your right to any type of legislation would be a good idea!!

Thanks

that has no legal merit. You cant waive your right to legislation.

Tell him to shove his lease where the sun dont shine you would only put that king of thing in if you are intending to shaft your tennant (not that it would stand legally anyway)