Replacing a rediator copper or plastic pipes?

Anchises

Hi,

I'm replacing a 20 year old radiator with a more compact new one.
I'm also relocation it be about 6 ft to the left -because it's been behind a sofa for years, and since we now have a leather sofa, it seems wrong to expose it to all that direct heat !
The existing system is copper pipes all round. (1/2 inch to the rads).

I've never used plastic pipes in a heating system before...

Can I use plastic to connect the new rad to the existing copper 1/2 inch connections ?
I''ve seen many different types of plastic pipes -grey, brown ...........
and a myriad of new connection fittings, obviously designed to snap into place without compression (B&Q).

Do they simply use a compression olive ? Is there an insert to be used to strengthen the plastic pipe? Or do you have to use special adaption devices ?

Since the connections will be under the existing wooden floor , and under a new wooden floor to be laid on that , I should get it right ! What's recommended ?
Simple using copper to extend might be easier if it were not for the complication of moving it as well as replacing it

A.

Joey the lips

I get the feeling you intend this to be a DIY job. They sometimes dont work out. Heating is complicated. A plumber wont charge you much about 150 to move a rad.

if you intend doing it yourself you can use either.

Copper = Pipe, Compression fitting(Fitting, nuts,olives)

Barrier pex must be barrier for heating you will see the line in the centre of the wall of the pipe if you cut it.

Barrierpex = Pex Compression fitting(Fitting, nuts,olives) and inserts to strengthen the wall of the pex.

TBH as a DIY PEX is easier

Stratocaster

QualPex is the stuff to use its a kind of beige/cream pipe and as Joey mentioned, must have an oxygen barrier. Look out for the dark ring in the pipe wall. For DIY jobs this is the only way to go because you will need a pipe benders to use copper. With out a benders you will have excessive amounts of fittings which will restrict the circulation. The disadvantage to Qualpex, hard to keep the pipe straight while connecting to the rad, also when Qualpex heats up it becomes weak and floppy, make sure its supported under the floor.

You can use compression fittings or push fit o ring fittings, although I don't like to use push fit I find DIY jobs will have less leaks with push fit compared to compression.

All the above fittings require you to use an insert with Qualpex, this insert keeps the pipe in shaped, if you don't use an insert it may expand and contract while heating and may cause a leak.

Don't scratch the surface of Oualpex, scratches or scores along the pipe surface will cause a leak if inside a fitting and always cut the pipe square.

Pick up a small tub of Boss White or Uni white, while compression a fitting you are required to add some of the above to lubricate the pipe while tightening the nut to compress the ring. Push fit fittings are pre lubricated.

Pick up a few lengths of armaflex type 1/2 insulation to reduce heat loss on the new runs to the rad.

ttm

Joey the lips wrote: »

TBH as a DIY PEX is easier

and if you are only using short lenghts try buying it in straight lengths (4m afaik) as I think it is a lot easier to work with if you've not used PEX pipe before.

Joey the lips

ttm wrote: »

and if you are only using short lenghts try buying it in straight lengths (4m afaik) as I think it is a lot easier to work with if you've not used PEX pipe before.

Short or long lengths buy lengths the coils are a pain in the rocks.

Forgot to mention that. Thanks

On the subject of pex. The john gest fittings and pipe heatmerchants is doing is a lot more rigid and the business.

Anchises

Thanks That's all very helpful advice.

I put the system in myself over 20 years ago, when I was young and sprightly.

I realise I used barrier pipe last year to make a syphon to get the muck from the bottom of my oil tank. ... and used quick connect fittings to do that.
I've just looked at it and it does have the black ring in the centre....never noticed that before..

So i understand I will use quickfit connectors and MUST use inserts at all points.
And presumably it's vital to get the pipe cut straight - a cutter rather then a saw ?

What of the connection to 1/2 inch copper connection (now stripped of it connecting pipe).
To connect to it I can use a standard compression coupling, olive and an insert ?
I don't need any kind of adaptor to convert it to quickfit ?

In other words simply remove the 1/2inch copper pipe and connect the barrier pipe directly? and presumably same thing at the rad valve connection point ?

I was thinking I'd like the down pipe from the rad bottom into the floor to be copper.
Any reason why it cannot be pex all the way ? pex does not appeal visually..

A

Stratocaster

Anchises wrote: »

Thanks That's all very helpful advice.

I put the system in myself over 20 years ago, when I was young and sprightly.

I realise I used barrier pipe last year to make a syphon to get the muck from the bottom of my oil tank. ... and used quick connect fittings to do that.
I've just looked at it and it does have the black ring in the centre....never noticed that before..

So i understand I will use quickfit connectors and MUST use inserts at all points.
And presumably it's vital to get the pipe cut straight - a cutter rather then a saw ?

What of the connection to 1/2 inch copper connection (now stripped of it connecting pipe).
To connect to it I can use a standard compression coupling, olive and an insert ?
I don't need any kind of adaptor to convert it to quickfit ?

In other words simply remove the 1/2inch copper pipe and connect the barrier pipe directly? and presumably same thing at the rad valve connection point ?

I was thinking I'd like the down pipe from the rad bottom into the floor to be copper.
Any reason why it cannot be pex all the way ? pex does not appeal visually..

A

You can join Qualpex to copper and copper to Qualpex with both push fit and compression. Both pipes are the same diameter so they will match up to each fitting.

Use inserts with all Qualpex fittings and you can cut with a saw provided its straight and free from any burrs.

You can go all the way to the rad with Qualpex if you like, tends to look uneven and its not designed to take any abuse so keep that in mind.

Good plumbing practice to have all exposed pipe work in copper and plastics under floors etc away from view and possible damage.

Anchises

Thanks again.

My wife and I are still trying to decide what style /size of rad to fit......

The saga continues.....we might agree this century

A.

Stratocaster

Anchises wrote: »

Thanks again.

My wife and I are still trying to decide what style /size of rad to fit......

The saga continues.....we might agree this century

A.

You can purchase nice looking aluminum radiators to add as a feature in your room. The come in all shapes, sizes and colors and in most cases will have a higher output than many of the standard type radiators you would install in the same room.

Aluminum rads tend to heat up much quicker which in turn provides heat to the room quicker and they can be a feature instead of an eye sore. Its always good to install one especially in the living room.

Anchises

I went, with my wife, to look at radiators today, but ended up in flooring shop, furniture shop,
spent a bomb and still no rad.

I did look at aluminium rads at http://www.rvr.ie
Nice rads , seem to be only in white.....
I've yet to trace a location in Cork where I can see them.

I've seen similar rads in France, but my wife has never seen them 'in the flesh' and that's an issue..

A.

Stratocaster

Anchises wrote: »

I went, with my wife, to look at radiators today, but ended up in flooring shop, furniture shop,
spent a bomb and still no rad.

I did look at aluminium rads at http://www.rvr.ie
Nice rads , seem to be only in white.....
I've yet to trace a location in Cork where I can see them.

I've seen similar rads in France, but my wife has never seen them 'in the flesh' and that's an issue..

A.

Most catalogs will only show them in white, if you look further into them you may find there available in different colors. They tend to be a special order item, if you talk to some of the leading plumbing suppliers, Heatmerchants, DPL, Davies, maybe try HEVAC on the nass rd, most will have some affiliation with with aluminum rad distributors they may not be on the shelf but can be sourced through the above in most cases. Also worth trying some of the fancy bathroom suite supplyers, I have seen a few on display. You should try up north AJ plumbing supplys, a lot of the designer houses I worked on had nice designer gear bought from AJ plumbing supplies. They are regularly travling down south so I doubt its an issue.

Joey the lips

Anchises wrote: »

I went, with my wife, to look at radiators today, but ended up in flooring shop, furniture shop,
spent a bomb and still no rad.

I did look at aluminium rads at http://www.rvr.ie
Nice rads , seem to be only in white.....
I've yet to trace a location in Cork where I can see them.

I've seen similar rads in France, but my wife has never seen them 'in the flesh' and that's an issue..

A.

All the elegance range of rads are only sold in white. Buy them they are a wonderful rad. I also suggest you look at the quinn range of colum rads. Very reasonable very good.

Dont buy them off RVR(Sorry guys) They are very expensive. Speak to aishling in heating distributors. Tell her your an electrician and buying it for the plumber you have working for you that way you will get trade price and will not be expected to know anything. She will even spec it. She is a wonderful lady.

One word of caution. The oasis range of alluminium rads tends to be very small so you are better ordering on actual size you want rather than spec cause if your matching with a size that was there or near there the elegance range will be massivly more efficent so dont worry,

Anchises

Just to report back - Job done ...looking good BUT !!!!

I have a very slight leak at the point where the valve stem is joined to the radiator. I've redone it twice by shutting the valves and re-doing the both joint - rad to stem - stem to Rad.... No Joy !

The thread on the link to rad section seems very loose. I was able to screw it into the rad almost all the way by hand. Should I redo it with a bigger layer of PTFE ? or is there a different way to seal this joint between the rad and valve ?

It's a *very* small leak. I need to put a tissue under it to even show the drip ! But dammit any leak is too much. I'm due to get a new floor laid in two weeks

Maybe a stronger sealant. I remember using "boss white" in the past - it was like soft putty. Any ideas ...........?

A.

ttm

Anchises wrote: »

Just to report back - Job done ...looking good BUT !!!!

I have a very slight leak at the point where the valve stem is joined to the radiator. I've redone it twice by shutting the valves and re-doing the both joint - rad to stem - stem to Rad.... No Joy !

The thread on the link to rad section seems very loose. I was able to screw it into the rad almost all the way by hand. Should I redo it with a bigger layer of PTFE ? or is there a different way to seal this joint between the rad and valve ?

It's a *very* small leak. I need to put a tissue under it to even show the drip ! But dammit any leak is too much. I'm due to get a new floor laid in two weeks

Maybe a stronger sealant. I remember using "boss white" in the past - it was like soft putty. Any ideas ...........?

A.

You could try using the gas quality PTFE tape which is thicker than the std if 3 wraps around a joint with that won't seal it I'm not sure what will.

Edit> or what I do on potentially leaky large thread areas is about 5 wraps of tape in the middle of the thread then I use another 5 on the front edge to hold the middle section in place then 5 on the back of the thread, all of which increase the thickness of the middle section. Reccenlty had to make some joints on 1inch BSP fittings and dispite the experts saying boss white was the only way to go it worked fine. Bit amature perhaps but wtf is the cost of a role of pfte tape ... not a lot!

Joey the lips

Anchises wrote: »

Just to report back - Job done ...looking good BUT !!!!

I have a very slight leak at the point where the valve stem is joined to the radiator. I've redone it twice by shutting the valves and re-doing the both joint - rad to stem - stem to Rad.... No Joy !

The thread on the link to rad section seems very loose. I was able to screw it into the rad almost all the way by hand. Should I redo it with a bigger layer of PTFE ? or is there a different way to seal this joint between the rad and valve ?

It's a *very* small leak. I need to put a tissue under it to even show the drip ! But dammit any leak is too much. I'm due to get a new floor laid in two weeks

Maybe a stronger sealant. I remember using "boss white" in the past - it was like soft putty. Any ideas ...........?

A.

You have me very worried about this, You should not need to use any tape if done correctly. Is it possible to take a pictre. Are you missing the olive and insert that goes in the pipe(If using pex) out of the nut.

ttm

Joey the lips wrote: »

You have me very worried about this, You should not need to use any tape if done correctly. Is it possible to take a pictre. Are you missing the olive and insert that goes in the pipe(If using pex) out of the nut.

Didn't sound like a compression fitting to me, hopefully the OP will get back and say but I read it as a being a screw thread rad to rad valve conection hence no olive or insert???

Joey the lips

ttm wrote: »

Didn't sound like a compression fitting to me, hopefully the OP will get back and say but I read it as a being a screw thread rad to rad valve conection hence not olive???

My mistake sorry thanks for the correction

What is actually wrong is the seal has no substance to grip the threads and the rad. You need to wrap the threads with a mix of flax and boss white. or horse hair and boss white as the trade calls it. The thread screw on ant clockwise so you wrap the mixture clockwise. if you catch my drift.

Another solution is to use plumbers pipe seal but the most successful is the boss white and horse hair

A like with more info just google Boss white and hemp

Anchises

Good idea about using extra tape - i may do that tomorrow ..

To Joey:

The leak is between the union nut and the rad = the piece that screws into the rad to which the rad is eventually joined....
There is no olive there ....

It seemed VERY loose even with PTFE tape

The union has a ring nut to connect to the rad and it seats onto the union nut.

A.

Anchises

cross posts ...

I'll go with the flax & boss white tomorrow

A.

ttm

Doesn't that *union* have a washer that seals the flat mating surfaces of the joint to make a seal? afaik you are not dealing with a taper thread so there is nothing to tighten up into and once you have its not the thread that should be making the seal anyway?

Edit> simplist example I can think of is the connector on the end of a washing machine hose. I'm talking about the hand tightenable nut on the end that connects to the washing machine, if you were to take one off and look inside there would be a rubber washer, in that situation no amount of ptfe tape or boss white and hemp (horse hair is a new one on me?) on the thread would make a satisfactory joint if the washer was missing.

So I think all you need is the right sized washer.

Joey the lips

ttm wrote: »

Doesn't that *union* have a washer that seals the flat mating surfaces of the joint to make a seal? afaik you are not dealing with a taper thread so there is nothing to tighten up into and once you have its not the thread that should be making the seal anyway?

Edit> simplist example I can think of is the connector on the end of a washing machine hose. I'm talking about the hand tightenable nut on the end that connects to the washing machine, if you were to take one off and look inside there would be a rubber washer, in that situation no amount of ptfe tape or boss white and hemp (horse hair is a new one on me?) on the thread would make a satisfactory joint if the washer was missing.

So I think all you need is the right sized washer.

No not in this case sorry. Flax and boss white is your only man.

Anchises

Your the man Joey

Hope this image displays for you. ( the older valve removed from the old rad and junked, a little grotty now. it's been sitting in my back garden for a while ) ...



The leftmost piece simply screws into the radiator. That's where the drip is. There is no flange/olive/pressure cone etc...

In engineering terms, it probably is a poor design...maybe they should design them to be cone shaped or with a face/shoulder that butts against the rad input point ?

Thanks again to all. I've got the hemp n boss white today. I'll tackle the job tomorrow. The sun is shining now

A.

Joey the lips

Yes your quite right the hemp and boss white mixed together to look like a head full of shampoo goes on the far left thread. This thread screws in clockwise so you wrap the hemp and boss white anti clockwise. Let it dry and you can trim off whats loose.

ttm

Joey the lips wrote: »

No not in this case sorry. Flax and boss white is your only man.

Fair enough took it to be the joint between nut and the valve.

PeteHeat

Hi,

PTFE for the tails on a domestic rad, boss and hemp on industrial.

Depending on the fitting you may need a few extra turns of tape it shouldn't be a problem.

.

Joey the lips

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi,

PTFE for the tails on a domestic rad, boss and hemp on industrial.

Depending on the fitting you may need a few extra turns of tape it shouldn't be a problem.

.

Not true peter. Boss white and hemp is the belt and braces of plumbing. In fact i usually judge a plumber by certain standards and my feellings are Boss white and hemp fit once PTFE worried about making a mistake

Outkast_IRE

iv always used ptfe for those, never had a problem , however if i did i would use boss white and hemp then .

PeteHeat

Hi Joey,

I would judge the plumber on the overall standard and performance of his work not just one fitting.

When you find out why I suggested PTFE for Domestic and boss / hemp for Industrial rads come back to me.

.

Joey the lips

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi Joey,

I would judge the plumber on the overall standard and performance of his work not just one fitting.

When you find out why I suggested PTFE for Domestic and boss / hemp for Industrial rads come back to me.

.

and you are a plumber so i would expect that. but the op wants a job that will work and be trouble free. As for finding out why not make use of the forum and enlighten everyone. Shareing of information as such.

You know that these are aluminium rads that the op is going into when suggesting that he use the tape. Just for info.:D

ttm

Not totally off topic

PTFE = Plumbers Tape For Everything

PeteHeat

ttm wrote: »

Not totally off topic

PTFE = Plumbers Tape For Everything

Spot on ttm

Joey,

I read the description of the rad and the installation method used, I still say PTFE in the right hands.

"and you are a plumber so i would expect that."

You appear to expect / assume a lot

.

Joey the lips

PeteHeat wrote: »

Spot on ttm

Joey,

I read the description of the rad and the installation method used, I still say PTFE in the right hands.

"and you are a plumber so i would expect that."

You appear to expect / assume a lot

.

Not at all. What i was getting at was something different. But why not improve on the discussions and share your information instead of just challenging. Have you any information that says why boss white and hemp should not be used in domestic situations?

PeteHeat

Hi Joey,

No objection to using boss and hemp in domestic work like OutKast I have used it in some cases the best job although I prefer Fernox to Boss White.

The O.P. has a simple problem of a weap at a radiator tail, simple to fix with the products he appears to have to hand and based on his posts well within his capabilities.

Your Challenge :

"In fact i usually judge a plumber by certain standards and my feellings are Boss white and hemp fit once PTFE worried about making a mistake"

I see more mistakes in DIY with boss and hemp than with PTFE, my advice is based on experience, given freely to be used or rejected as the O.P. or anyone reading sees fit.

BTW good plumbers rarely make such mistakes as they know which method is best based on experience.

.

ttm

If you search the web you'll find the PTFE v Boss White "discussion" crops up time and time again. For amatures (like me) you can't go far wrong with the thicker *one wrap* gas pipe PTFE tape and on the parallel screw threads with no back nut like it works just fine.

If the fit is a bit loose and it may be that the OP just means that because there is no taper (these are parallel threads) he can screw the tail all the way in with no resisitance, a few wraps of std PTFE tape can still be used. If the threads really are loose then the PTFE tape can be used a little like hemp/flax, instead of using the PTFE tape flat you can twist it into a string wrapped tightly into the base of the threads then a second wrap can be made to hold the first in place. In the very worst case a mound of tape can be built up in the middle of the thread with the wrapping either side of this used to hold this "gasket" of PTFE tape in place.

However that doesn't mean that using Boss White is wrong, but OP has PTFE tape and if it was me I'd have put a couple of isolation valves on this rads pipes by now so it would be a two minute job to whip the tail out and have another go. yeah I always go for overkill on the basis of if it went wrong once then I'll be back to it again eventually so might as well make it easy for myself next time

The only issue I can see is that the rad might be quite thin and only have a couple of threads for the tail to grip on in which case you could put masses of PTFE tape on the end of the tail and screw it in so far that the seal gets lost inside the rad. In that case you'd need to mark how far in the tail goes and make sure there was enough PTFE tape on the tails thread where it actually grips on the rad - hope thats makes sence?

PeteHeat

Hi ttm,

Yes it makes lots of sense, Locktite actually brought out a product which looks like string to use in deep threads, very handy for G.B. fittings on boilers etc.

The minor weep experienced by the O.P. could be fixed by the method you suggest and as he has PTFE to hand it should save time and money.

The rad valves should serve as isolating valves for the modification.

Thank you for answering Joey's question re: domestic / commercial installations.

.

ttm

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi ttm,

Yes it makes lots of sense, Locktite actually brought out a product which looks like string to use in deep threads, very handy for G.B. fittings on boilers etc.

The minor weep experienced by the O.P. could be fixed by the method you suggest and as he has PTFE to hand it should save time and money.

The rad valves should serve as isolating valves for the modification.

Thank you for answering Joey's question re: domestic / commercial installations.

.

There I go, not thinking again :rolleyes: just had it in mind that rad valves were gate valves for flow control and not that reliable at cutting the water off completely.

Joey the lips

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi Joey,

No objection to using boss and hemp in domestic work like OutKast I have used it in some cases the best job although I prefer Fernox to Boss White.

The O.P. has a simple problem of a weap at a radiator tail, simple to fix with the products he appears to have to hand and based on his posts well within his capabilities.

Your Challenge :

"In fact i usually judge a plumber by certain standards and my feellings are Boss white and hemp fit once PTFE worried about making a mistake"

I see more mistakes in DIY with boss and hemp than with PTFE, my advice is based on experience, given freely to be used or rejected as the O.P. or anyone reading sees fit.

BTW good plumbers rarely make such mistakes as they know which method is best based on experience.

.

There was no challange to you in fact it was quite the opposite, You actually challanged me to find out why boss white is not used.

I was repecting the fact that i assumed you to be a plumber when i asked you to elobrate.