2010 refuelling?

keefg · 27-07-2009 6:46pm #1

Can't remember if it was before the qualifying or the race but Brundle did a little piece about the fuel rigs and he mentioned that refuelling was banned for 2010.

So what's the story there then? Can F1 cars carry enough fuel to go the entire race?

amacachi · 27-07-2009 6:48pm

keefg wrote: »

Can't remember if it was before the qualifying or the race but Brundle did a little piece about the fuel rigs and he mentioned that refuelling was banned for 2010.

So what's the story there then? Can F1 cars carry enough fuel to go the entire race?

It's all up in the air as far as I know. I doubt any at the moment can carry enough fuel for a race, so there'll be a bit of a redesign for that. There's always a chance the fueltank size will be mandated or the teams will only be allowed use a set amount of fuel for the race or for the weekend.

vectra · 27-07-2009 9:28pm

I did hear next years cars will be longer to accomodate the bigger tank.

EvilMonkey · 27-07-2009 9:33pm

Basically the team with the best car(light on tyres and fuel efficient engine) and fastest pit crew will win. :P

Ghost Train · 27-07-2009 9:47pm

I think its a pity really if it does go as it will take another variable out the strategy.

leeroybrown · 27-07-2009 10:39pm

As vectra says, next years cars will be longer to accommodate a larger fuel tank.

Personally, I think it's a positive thing. The current fuel situation has got to the point where the teams and the television audience know pretty much exactly how many laps a car will stay out at any point in the race. I don't think that heavily fuelled cars at the start really add anything to the spectacle of a race - quite the opposite at times. The only real tactical addition it currently brings is the possibility of a car fuelling long at some stage during the race. The biggest area where it will actually be missed is that the commentators will now need to find a way to fill the 15 minute void left in their day that's been left by it's absence.

Removing refuelling eliminates some costs for the teams (lugging those rigs around appears to be pricey) and adds the engineering challenge of designing a car that performs well across a much wider range of circumstances while having excellent fuel efficiency. Fuel efficient power sounds like a much better 'green' focus than the mess that KERS has turned into. It'll be good to see a return of pit stops that are genuinely against the clock. The current fuel stops are generally quite pedestrian by comparison. Also, it should de-congest the pits slightly, remove one safety issue and reduce the number of dangerous car releases due to the similar stop times.

EvilMonkey · 27-07-2009 11:04pm

The FIA lugs the fuel rigs around they own them/pay for the transport and presumably they will still be needed to put fuel in the cars.

I think the pits will get busier because if everyone starts on the same tyre then chances are they will need to be changed around the same time.

It will be interesting to see the wheel men in the pit crew under pressure to be as quick as possible, could result in more loose wheel nuts though. :eek:

The cars are fastest when there light, there lighter for longer with fuel stops and its more interesting with different strategies i think.

In 05 tyre changing was banned, in 10 fuel stops is banned.

leeroybrown · 27-07-2009 11:20pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

The FIA lugs the fuel rigs around they own them/pay for the transport and presumably they will still be needed to put fuel in the cars.

As far as I know the teams already have small units of their own that can be used outside of the main race. The rigs themselves are only that bulky as they need to be a closed system pump. For safety reasons the rig pumps the air back from the tank as the fuel is pumped in. If you're not worried about hitting 10 litres per second safely under race conditions then a small pump is perfectly adequate.

keefg · 28-07-2009 2:37am

leeroybrown wrote: »

The current fuel situation has got to the point where the teams and the television audience know pretty much exactly how many laps a car will stay out at any point in the race.

This is something that has ruined F1 for me lately, not just the fuel situation but also the tyres.

I enjoyed it much more before we were given the exact info on how long the cars are fuelled for (which lap) or exactly how long the tyres with the green stripes or purple flowers will last.

Now it's just a case of "Oh look, Button is coming for fuel on lap 25 just as Brundle told us he would during his pit walk".

I DON'T WANT TO KNOW!! I want a little bit of surprise during the race and the old tension of not knowing which driver will need to pit first.

Cookie_Monster · 28-07-2009 8:53am

I think it's a good idea and don't forget also it will mean 3rd qualifying will be a proper benchmark of who is the fastest as there is no need to carry additional fuel.

Iirc they will need something like a 220L tank for an entire race.

kaizersoze · 28-07-2009 10:48am

Each car will be carrying of 160kg of fuel into the first corner.:eek:

TheChrisD · 28-07-2009 4:18pm

amacachi wrote: »

It's all up in the air as far as I know. I doubt any at the moment can carry enough fuel for a race, so there'll be a bit of a redesign for that. There's always a chance the fueltank size will be mandated or the teams will only be allowed use a set amount of fuel for the race or for the weekend.

Well, A1GP cars carry all their fuel for the 70-minute Feature Race. So if heavily modified F2004's can bring it all, surely the current gen of cars can bring them as well.

Also, remember the minimum weight is going up as well, so more weight means they can have a bigger tank!

Cookie_Monster · 28-07-2009 4:25pm

TheChrisD wrote: »

Also, remember the minimum weight is going up as well, so more weight means they can have a bigger tank!

This is mainly for driver well being though. I thought fuel didn't count for the total car weight?

amacachi · 28-07-2009 9:56pm

TheChrisD wrote: »

Well, A1GP cars carry all their fuel for the 70-minute Feature Race. So if heavily modified F2004's can bring it all, surely the current gen of cars can bring them as well.

Also, remember the minimum weight is going up as well, so more weight means they can have a bigger tank!

Extremely heavily detuned engines and other components though, so they wouldn't require as much.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This is mainly for driver well being though. I thought fuel didn't count for the total car weight?

As you said, minimum weight doesn't include fuel. Or lubes etc. for that matter.

vectra · 28-07-2009 11:57pm

amacachi wrote: »

As you said, minimum weight doesn't include fuel. Or lubes etc. for that matter.

Doesnt include Magnums or Coke either for Kimi

amacachi · 29-07-2009 2:35am

vectra wrote: »

Doesnt include Magnums or Coke either for Kimi

Depends what he has in him before the race I suppose. :pac:

thegoth · 29-07-2009 8:32am

Looking forward to this. It was be an interesting experiment. Not sure how it will work out but worth a try. One thing is for sure. It wont be as bad as one lap qualifing.

What I am really really really looking forward to is seeing all the cars in Q3 on the same fuel loads. Then we can see real battles between teammates. I miss them

vectra · 29-07-2009 8:53am

thegoth wrote: »

What I am really really really looking forward to is seeing all the cars in Q3 on the same fuel loads. Then we can see real battles between teammates. I miss them

That is the point though.
The most fuel efficiant car will not need as much as one that is thirstier so therefore would be lighter during qualifying.
BUT
On sayng that.
The thirstier car may be much faster than the lighter one during the race...
Hmm. :P

BaZmO* · 29-07-2009 2:14pm

Does this mean we might see cars running out of fuel before the end? That'd be interesting!

EvilMonkey · 29-07-2009 2:32pm

BaZmO* wrote: »

Does this mean we might see cars running out of fuel before the end? That'd be interesting!

I dont think so, but we could see drivers have to drive conservatively and turn the engine maps down to save fuel, like Massa did a while ago.

vectra · 29-07-2009 4:09pm

BaZmO* wrote: »

Does this mean we might see cars running out of fuel before the end? That'd be interesting!

Happened befoe and it will certainly happen again.
Hungry for your first win with 2 laps to go and low on fuel...
What to do...??

BaZmO* · 30-07-2009 7:20am

vectra wrote: »

Happened befoe and it will certainly happen again.
Hungry for your first win with 2 laps to go and low on fuel...
What to do...??

Yeah that's why I said it.
Teams will have to calculate the fuel down to the last lap but if a driver is pushing that bit harder for longer than expected it's quite conceivable that he'll either A) Have to conserve fuel and miss out on position or

Miscalculate and run out of fuel or come very close to it.
Suppose we'll just have to wait I see.

EvilMonkey · 30-07-2009 12:22pm

BaZmO* wrote: »

Yeah that's why I said it.
Teams will have to calculate the fuel down to the last lap but if a driver is pushing that bit harder for longer than expected it's quite conceivable that he'll either A) Have to conserve fuel and miss out on position or Miscalculate and run out of fuel or come very close to it.
Suppose we'll just have to wait I see.

In motogp they have electronics that wont let the bike run out of fuel in a race, constantly working out how much fuel they have and how much fuel is being used and changing the engine map, restricting rpm etc. Its not hard to believe the F1 teams will fit similar systems. So they probably miss out on a position but i dont see them running out.

BaZmO* · 30-07-2009 1:13pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

In motogp they have electronics that wont let the bike run out of fuel in a race, constantly working out how much fuel they have and how much fuel is being used and changing the engine map, restricting rpm etc. Its not hard to believe the F1 teams will fit similar systems. So they probably miss out on a position but i dont see them running out.

Fair enough, although it'd be a pity to see a limiter kicking in if there was a decent head to head at the end of the race.

Cookie_Monster · 30-07-2009 3:53pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

In motogp they have electronics that wont let the bike run out of fuel in a race, constantly working out how much fuel they have and how much fuel is being used and changing the engine map, restricting rpm etc. Its not hard to believe the F1 teams will fit similar systems. So they probably miss out on a position but i dont see them running out.

This would be an interesting concept in F1 but I would fear it would end up ruining it at the same time.

EvilMonkey · 30-07-2009 4:32pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This would be an interesting concept in F1 but I would fear it would end up ruining it at the same time.

Never said it would be good but from a teams perspective its more reliable than a driver with a win/points whatever in sight and being asked to back off, then to discover they backed off too much, not enough or run out and dont finish.

2010 refuelling?

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