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Paypal Claim settled but funds are unrecoverable

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  • 27-07-2009 5:45pm
    #1
    cluttrell
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭


    Long story short,

    I bought a phone from a Gumtree ad on the London site and paid the seller via paypal (as I thought this was 100% secure).

    The phone never arrived and the seller is incontactable.
    I raised a dispute with Paypal, escalated it to a claim and as the seller did not respond to Paypal within 10days, the claim was decided in my favor.

    Now, the real unfortunate part.

    I received an email from PayPal saying the following.
    "We have completed our investigation of this case. We attempted to process a refund from the seller's account to your account. Unfortunately, the seller's account does not contain the funds necessary to cover this refund. We were able to recover €0.00 EUR. We have taken action against the seller and are working to recover the remainder of your refund. We will contact you when we have more information. No further action is required of you at this time."

    I only received this message 2 days ago so I will sit tight for a couple of weeks, but I am concerned that I will never get this money refunded to me.

    I rang paypal prior to making this regrettable purchase descision and was assured that all efforts including the use of debt collection agencies would be made in the event of the phone not being shipped.

    I'm just reaching out to see if anyone has had a similar experience with a positive claim outcome but the funds were not recovered?

    I'd like to know what options are and what to expect from Paypal - the case is now closed so I'm wondering what actions they will take and how long I should wait?

    Unfortunately, I feel my faith in the unwavering security of PayPal may have been misguided - I thought thats what you were paying for with their high fees.

    Any helpful comments or shared experiences would be welcome!
    Tagged:


Comments

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    #2
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    if you used a credit card for the paypal transaction you should be able to do a chargeback on the card


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    #3
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Provided you are still within the time limit.

    I reckon that the paypal processes are so slow in order to prevent chargebacks.


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    #4
    cluttrell
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭cluttrell


    That thought never even crossed my mind - the transaction is coming up on one month old and was funded by a credit card.

    How do I issue a chargeback - just contact my credit card provider?

    I'll look into it straight away - thanks 007 & NTL!


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    #5
    eth0_
    Registered Users Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭eth0_


    If they've closed the case then rest assured they are NOT still chasing up your refund!

    Contact your bank and request a chargeback.


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    #6
    cluttrell
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭cluttrell


    Update - I contacted AIB (credit card provider) and they can begin chargeback proceedings from 30 days after the purchase date and up until 60 days afterwards.

    That translates to a window of Aug 4th to Sept 4th. So my plan is to hold off until next Tues, contact paypal for an update and if nothing has happened or is likely to happen with them, I will contact AIB again. AIB said they can't gaurrantee anything either but that they can try.

    Thanks again for the advice guys - any other advice welcome!


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    #7
    cluttrell
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭cluttrell


    eth0_ wrote: »
    If they've closed the case then rest assured they are NOT still chasing up your refund!

    Contact your bank and request a chargeback.

    Really? Have you had a similar experience?

    I've enquired about a chargeback - see my update.
    Thx!


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    #8
    jor el
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,713 ✭✭✭✭jor el


    cluttrell wrote: »
    Really? Have you had a similar experience?

    When Paypal close a case, that's it. There will be no more investigation, and they won't be able to get the money back, unless the seller volunteers the money back into the account. Not likely, being a scammer and all that. Paypal only told you that so that you wouldn't do exactly what it is you're going to do, the charge back.


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    #9
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    What is the time limit for a charge back?


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    #10
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,269 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Bond-007 wrote: »
    What is the time limit for a charge back?
    Depends on the card/bank but usually up to 3 months.


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    #11
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    The reason I asked is that paypals' own investigations can take alot of time and in that time the window for a chargeback could easily close leaving you high and dry.


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    #12
    jor el
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,713 ✭✭✭✭jor el


    According to the OP of this thread, it's 30-60days after the transaction, for AIB.


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    #13
    ei9go
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭ei9go


    I have successfully done a chargeback to Paypal when they would not open a case due to 45 days having expired since the transaction.

    It's a waste of time trying to reason with paypal in any way!


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    #14
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Once you chargeback paypal, you need to open a new account with a different credit card number. Chargebacking them is against their terms and conditions.


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    #15
    eth0_
    Registered Users Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭eth0_


    Bond-007 wrote: »
    Once you chargeback paypal, you need to open a new account with a different credit card number. Chargebacking them is against their terms and conditions.

    And possibly a new email address too?
    They really are a bunch of tw*ts.


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    #16
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    eth0_ wrote: »
    And possibly a new email address too?
    They really are a bunch of tw*ts.
    Forgot about the email address. ;)


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    #17
    jor el
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,713 ✭✭✭✭jor el


    cluttrell wrote: »
    I received an email from PayPal saying the following.
    "We have completed our investigation of this case. We attempted to process a refund from the seller's account to your account. Unfortunately, the seller's account does not contain the funds necessary to cover this refund. We were able to recover €0.00 EUR. We have taken action against the seller and are working to recover the remainder of your refund. We will contact you when we have more information. No further action is required of you at this time."

    There's something even bigger at play when you deal with Paypal on an issue like this. Paypal have taken their fee (30c + 2.9% of the transaction amount) from the payment you sent, a payment that turned out to be a fraud. Now, Paypal have received money from an action they know to be fraudulent, but they are still going to keep that money. This, to me, makes them complicit in the fraud, and they should be investigated by the banks and/or Police for it.

    In this case, Paypal say they were able to return 0.00 to the buyer, which is not true, they could refund their fee, as they should not and would not hold on to that if the funds had been recoverable.

    In my mind, Paypal are committing fraud on a regular basis, and they are never held accountable for it, nor do they ever refund the fee they received on the back of a fraudulent transaction.

    If you feel strongly enough, you could report this to the UK Financial Services Authority, who I believe regulates Paypal. Paypal are not regulated in Ireland, so no point in contacting our regulator.

    And if you stand up for your rights, they'll close your account. How fair is that?


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    #18
    cluttrell
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭cluttrell


    I'm not well enough versed in consumer law /fraud to comment on this - the only thing I can see reg their fees is that I did not get charged the fees, the seller did, so this may be why it's not refunded to me? I do get your point though, they have made money from a fraudulent transaction.

    The entire ordeal certainly has opened my eyes to the '100% buyer security' offered by PayPal and has raised some questions in my mind about their code of conduct. Basically I'll only be using them for eBay purchases in future and will be only taking the sellers feedback and reputation into account and not the security offered by PayPal. I certainly will not use PayPal for non-ebay transactions.


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    #19
    cluttrell
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭cluttrell


    Bond-007 wrote: »
    Forgot about the email address. ;)

    Seriously? Charge backs are against their T's & C's and you're account is effectively shutdown if you proceed with one?

    I was so naive with all of this. :eek:


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    #20
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    If you chargeback Paypal they will kill your account and blacklist your details.

    I knew a chap that worked for them and it was his job to kill accounts belonging to people who have chargebacked Paypal.


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    #21
    jor el
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,713 ✭✭✭✭jor el


    cluttrell wrote: »
    I'm not well enough versed in consumer law /fraud to comment on this - the only thing I can see reg their fees is that I did not get charged the fees, the seller did, so this may be why it's not refunded to me? I do get your point though, they have made money from a fraudulent transaction.

    The fees come out of the money you sent to the seller, before he received it. They have taken a cut from a fraudulent transaction, making them accomplices in the fraud.
    cluttrell wrote: »
    The entire ordeal certainly has opened my eyes to the '100% buyer security' offered by PayPal and has raised some questions in my mind about their code of conduct.

    Buyer and seller protection, as offered by eBay and Paypal, is a complete fabrication. If you're protected, it's because the buyer/seller you're dealing with is honest. If they are not, you have no protection, apart from the charge-back capability offered by some credit cards.


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    #22
    ei9go
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭ei9go


    I am still using the same account despite the chargeback. Never heard any further from them after the chargeback


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    #23
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    You must have slipped the net. Don't be surprised if you find your account suspended in the future. They used to review chargebacks going back years. Whilst your account may not be closed straight away they could in the future.

    I am only telling you what a paypal insider told me. If I were to chargeback them I would take sensible precautions in case they did act the twat and close the account.


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    #24
    c4cat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭c4cat


    cluttrell wrote: »
    Long story short,

    I bought a phone from a Gumtree ad on the London site and paid the seller via paypal (as I thought this was 100% secure).

    The phone never arrived and the seller is incontactable.
    I raised a dispute with Paypal, escalated it to a claim and as the seller did not respond to Paypal within 10days, the claim was decided in my favor.

    Now, the real unfortunate part.

    !

    Paypal is more like your worse enemy in cases like this CHARGEBACK or lose your dosh


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    #25
    cluttrell
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭cluttrell


    c4cat wrote: »
    Paypal is more like your worse enemy in cases like this CHARGEBACK or lose your dosh

    Quick update - My chargeback was successful, got my money back 5 working days after I initiated it. Delighted - thanks to all who responded for your advice.

    Will see now if/when my PayPal account is limited.


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