Interest on Irish national debt will take 18.7% of tax revenues in 2013

ei.sdraob

2008 report is out

http://www.ntma.ie/Publications/2009/AnnualReportPressRelease230709.pdf

note thats 2008 so far this year revenue is down ~25% > http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1016605.shtml

were gonna leave a heavy debt for our children to pay so we can keep paying some of the highest welfare and public wages in world

tsk tsk tsk

SLUSK

ireland is a sinking ship, get out while you still can.

silverharp

I'd also argue that any spin that it only brings us back to the early 90's levels is not telling the whole story, when you add Irish personal debt , the numbers become scary. Any attempt to tax our way out of this will kill the patient.

ei.sdraob

silverharp wrote: »

I'd also argue that any spin that it only brings us back to the early 90's levels is not telling the whole story, when you add Irish personal debt , the numbers become scary. Any attempt to tax our way out of this will kill the patient.

early 90s werent exactly where we want to be again, talk about going backwards a few decades

and you right personal debt is at all times high (hmm cant find any figures, anyone have good facts here?)

there was a peace in the indo today about how every little increase in mortgage rate pushes more people overboard

tho thats the nature of the debt/money system, someone somewhere looses out, short of a reform of the whole monetary system which is highly unlikely as it will have to be done globally all of this will happen again

kevteljeur

silverharp wrote: »

I'd also argue that any spin that it only brings us back to the early 90's levels is not telling the whole story, when you add Irish personal debt , the numbers become scary. Any attempt to tax our way out of this will kill the patient.

The situation is such that I think a new idiom or metaphor is required to describe the situation eloquently. I'm not even sure that Anglo-Irish idiom, or indeed the English language at all, has the capability to adequately describe it.

'The doctor has encouraged the patient to eat lard-cakes laced with heroin, while transplanting the patient's kidney into himself because he is suffering from some kidney disease of his own making. Now, the patient is dying and needs two kidneys but the doctor is taking the other kidney and preventing him from eating the lard-cakes laced with heroin, because the doctor has discovered that the lard-cakes laced with heroin prescription was not as good as was previously thought, even though all the other doctors had said this was wrong but the patient didn't listen either, and now everybody is royally stuffed.

Any attempt to tax our way out of this will kill the patient.'

I don't think I succeeded, really.

There will have to be some shocking cutbacks, higher taxes, and eventually (which will be the biggest shock of all) the corporate tax rates will have to go up to around 40%. While I fully understand the implications, I cannot see how corporate tax rates can stay at the current low rate at the expense of individual tax payers, particularly with the big EU players leaning on Ireland to do so. Can they not tax particular industries at different rates? Such as the finance and construction sectors?


.

silverharp

kevteljeur wrote: »

There will have to be some shocking cutbacks, higher taxes, and eventually (which will be the biggest shock of all) the corporate tax rates will have to go up to around 40%. While I fully understand the implications, I cannot see how corporate tax rates can stay at the current low rate at the expense of individual tax payers, particularly with the big EU players leaning on Ireland to do so. Can they not tax particular industries at different rates? Such as the finance and construction sectors?

Corporate profits are going to be way down, you mentioned finance and construction, I'd say they would have net losses going forward, so there would be nothing to tax. As the same time the Revenue get "free" tax revenue from abroad due to taxes on transfer prices, put CT rates up above 20% and that would start to dissapear.

eamonnm79

Read page 4 of the link from the OP.
These figures do not even include nama.:eek:
When you add that we will be way worse than the 25% of the early ninties.

gurramok

If corpo rates go up to 40%, say goodbye to my job among the 150 odd thousand working for foreign MNC's in Ireland and say goodbye to the 92% of Irish exports which rely on them.

ei.sdraob wrote:

and you right personal debt is at all times high (hmm cant find any figures, anyone have good facts here?)

Think personal debt is about 170bn off hand. Total private sector debt is 400bn+ http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/06/15/story33690.asp

Just found exact figures http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1016744.shtml

Personal debt is 172bn which is:
113bn on PPR's
33bn on buy-to-lets
1.3bn on holiday homes
22bn -other..credit cards/personal loan

So 148bn of that 172bn is on mortgages. Hence the reason we can't tax our way out of this deficit.

ei.sdraob

thanks for the figures

33bn on buy-to-let's

wow :eek:

and that's why we should tax second+ homes to hell, or just flat home tax based on square footage like in the states since it be easier to enforce

these people taught they can be cute whooors by buying houses on credit and then letting them out and pocketing the difference between low interest rates and the rents

yet another example how the low interest rates and easy credit was squandered into unproductive endeavors

houses don't make goods and services we can export and use to pay of the mounting debts

:cool:

Aaron1

kevteljeur wrote: »

There will have to be some shocking cutbacks, higher taxes, and eventually (which will be the biggest shock of all) the corporate tax rates will have to go up to around 40%. While I fully understand the implications, I cannot see how corporate tax rates can stay at the current low rate at the expense of individual tax payers, particularly with the big EU players leaning on Ireland to do so. Can they not tax particular industries at different rates? Such as the finance and construction sectors?


.

We can't decide to have different rates for different industries. The current 12.5% for all companies was agreed with the EU. They don't want to have different rates within one country

The 12.5 per cent corporation tax regime will be fully compatible with the Code of Conduct on business taxation which was agreed by ECOFIN last December. This Code is designed to curb harmful tax measures involving lower rates than the general rate of corporation tax in the country concerned. It does not aim at harmonising corporation tax rates in the Community and does not affect a general low rate of tax such as the proposed 12.5 per cent rate.

http://www.entemp.ie/press/1998/corptax.htm

gurramok wrote: »

If corpo rates go up to 40%, say goodbye to my job among the 150 odd thousand working for foreign MNC's in Ireland and say goodbye to the 92% of Irish exports which rely on them.

So 148bn of that 172bn is on mortgages. Hence the reason we can't tax our way out of this deficit.

I agree that increasing the Corp Tax rates would be the 'coup de grace' for the economy. But we have to increase tax just about everywhere else. The tax take will only be approx 24% of GNP this year or 20% of GDP. (This is based on the most recent budget estimate of tax take of 33.4bn, and annualising the first quater GNP/GDP figures) http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/current/qna.pdf

Considering that National Debt interest is going to make a much bigger part of spending, total spending just can't be cut back to levels of around 25% of GNP. I'm not saying that social welfare, pensions, public sector salaries etc shouldn't be cut back - they have to be cut. But the fiscal gap can't be bridged unless taxes are increased as well. No matter how you look at it, the situation that we are in is pretty horrific.

thebman

SLUSK wrote: »

ireland is a sinking ship, get out while you still can.

Lol yeah almost everywhere else is sinking too. We can't all live in Sweden :pac: