microbore

manus30

i have microbore 3/8 in central heating pipe used downstairs in my house. upstairs uses 1/2 in. would it be worth changing downstairs to 1/2 in as well? or is it better to leave well enough alone.
the system works fairly ok, but downstairs does not seem to perform as well as other houses with 1/2 in.
any advice gratefully appreciated. thanks in advance..

Stratocaster

manus30 wrote: »

i have microbore 3/8 in central heating pipe used downstairs in my house. upstairs uses 1/2 in. would it be worth changing downstairs to 1/2 in as well? or is it better to leave well enough alone.
the system works fairly ok, but downstairs does not seem to perform as well as other houses with 1/2 in.
any advice gratefully appreciated. thanks in advance..

Micro bore, I haven't seen that in a while, seen it a lot around north Dublin back in the day. Yes its worth changing to increase the flow and some micro bore systems I have seen had no insulation on the pipe work under the boards. Also rad valves on a system that old are due some leaks.

If your floor is raised on dwarf walls and you can locate the flow and return under the floor boards without too much damage, its possible to make the improvements.

There is a lot of other factors to consider towards bad performance within a heating system, maybe the balance has slipped, the downstairs rads are gunked up, the radiators have less output than up stairs, etc.

Changing the downstairs pipe work may not improve the system entirely, for full benefit you might need to replace the rads etc.

I see you have another post, I will have a look at it tomorrow as its more detailed.

manus30

thanks a mill. i am not too bad at diy but fairly green on central heating. i am hoping to make a few improvements before winter. thanks again

Stratocaster

manus30 wrote: »

thanks a mill. i am not too bad at diy but fairly green on central heating. i am hoping to make a few improvements before winter. thanks again

No Bother, the moral of the story above is, by changing just the pipe work alone, this may not have enough of an effect to improve performance.

I personally wouldn't go through all the hassle and expense of removing a micro bore system unless I can obtain enough performance, to make it worth while. If you are planning on changing the rads to higher output in the near future, then maybe replacing the micro bore with 1/2" is worth consideration.

manus30

Stratocaster wrote: »

No Bother, the moral of the story above is, by changing just the pipe work alone, this may not have enough of an effect to improve performance.

I personally wouldn't go through all the hassle and expense of removing a micro bore system unless I can obtain enough performance, to make it worth while. If you are planning on changing the rads to higher output in the near future, then maybe replacing the micro bore with 1/2" is worth consideration.

thanks again stratocaster,
what would you think are worthwhile mods/improvements to increase performance and efficiency of my central heating system?
my house is 20 years old and has the original system, ie tank fed open loop system

Stratocaster

manus30 wrote: »

thanks again stratocaster,
what would you think are worthwhile mods/improvements to increase performance and efficiency of my central heating system?
my house is 20 years old and has the original system, ie tank fed open loop system

First place I would look is the attic, if you say its 20 years old, the insulation is probably weak compared to whats available on the market today. No point in making all the changes and letting the improved heat escape. You can look at wall insulation and windows too but first place is always the attic.

Next thing to look at is sealing the system which will remove the F&E tank in the attic. This will enable you to introduce more pressure in the system, more pressure is good for heat, water of a stronger pressure tends to heat up better and circulate better.

Next up is your pipe work and rads, you mentioned something about outside pipes and I'll check that one tomorrow.

Another thing is controlling the heat by stats located in the proper areas and to separate the heating system, up stairs separate from down stairs, cylinder coil separate from the rads.

Once you can separate the system you can send the heat to where you want it, where as now you might turn on the heating and everything comes on together.

Its a lot of work but it can be done over time once you know what your looking for.

manus30

Stratocaster wrote: »

First place I would look is the attic, if you say its 20 years old, the insulation is probably weak compared to whats available on the market today. No point in making all the changes and letting the improved heat escape. You can look at wall insulation and windows too but first place is always the attic.

Next thing to look at is sealing the system which will remove the F&E tank in the attic. This will enable you to introduce more pressure in the system, more pressure is good for heat, water of a stronger pressure tends to heat up better and circulate better.

Next up is your pipe work and rads, you mentioned something about outside pipes and I'll check that one tomorrow.

Another thing is controlling the heat by stats located in the proper areas and to separate the heating system, up stairs separate from down stairs, cylinder coil separate from the rads.

Once you can separate the system you can send the heat to where you want it, where as now you might turn on the heating and everything comes on together.

Its a lot of work but it can be done over time once you know what your looking for.

great advice there, top man. i actually insulated the attic already, and also replaced the windows but i still feel that heat escapes very quickly so i am leaning towards getting bead insulation pumped into the walls next, what do you think?
i changed from oil to gas last year. i have been readin up a lot on central heating systems since then and i can now see a lot of flaws in the installation, one of which is the long run of pipework i spoke about ealier which is outside the house. seems a waste to me??
also, i got the gas installer to remove the back boiler and fit a gas boiler.
he just blanked off the pipes going to the old back boiler. this is now a dead leg, which i presume is bad??
sorry about all the questions, its just that it good to talk to someone who knows a bit.. thanks for reply

I would look at the quality of the system water and think about a flush of some description, once you get the water clean add a inhibitor, then protect it with you life. I like thermostatic rad valves on a system with room stats/ two ports, i thing they help balance the system by shutting down the flow to the rad pushing the water flow else where around the system, admittedly trv's are not the most precise temperature control devises, Gary.

have a look information on cleaning chemicals:
http://www.fernox.com/?cccpage=restorer_500ml&sub=2
http://www.sentinel-solutions.net/en/heating/X400

Joey the lips

gary71 wrote: »

I would look at the quality of the system water and think about a flush of some description, once you get the water clean add a inhibitor, then protect it with you life. I like thermostatic rad valves on a system with room stats/ two ports, i thing they help balance the system by shutting down the flow to the rad pushing the water flow else where around the system, admittedly trv's are not the most precise temperature control devises, Gary.

have a look information on cleaning chemicals:
http://www.fernox.com/?cccpage=restorer_500ml&sub=2
http://www.sentinel-solutions.net/en/heating/X400

Microbore is a real bitch. .it does not respond very well to flushing. I have seen many a plumber replace sections rather than flush.

I am temped to say leave it if you can live with it but then again you would not be posting if you could

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

Microbore is a real bitch. .it does not respond very well to flushing. I have seen many a plumber replace sections rather than flush.

I am temped to say leave it if you can live with it but then again you would not be posting if you could

You are absolutely right, to clarify i would only advise flushing if the pipework was being renewed, but there's a lot to be said for if it ain't broke don't fix it, Gary.

Stratocaster

manus30 wrote: »

great advice there, top man. i actually insulated the attic already, and also replaced the windows but i still feel that heat escapes very quickly so i am leaning towards getting bead insulation pumped into the walls next, what do you think?
i changed from oil to gas last year. i have been readin up a lot on central heating systems since then and i can now see a lot of flaws in the installation, one of which is the long run of pipework i spoke about ealier which is outside the house. seems a waste to me??
also, i got the gas installer to remove the back boiler and fit a gas boiler.
he just blanked off the pipes going to the old back boiler. this is now a dead leg, which i presume is bad??
sorry about all the questions, its just that it good to talk to someone who knows a bit.. thanks for reply

No Bother, you can never have too much insulation. The bead idea is a good idea. From my experience working north of the border, thats all they use up there, all the houses I worked on were built with no insulation in the cavity. Once the house was complete with windows and roof, they would drill the walls and fill the cavity's with beads.

I'll have a look at the long runs in your other post. Dead legs are not good in a system but if they are only short runs, they would not effect the system too much (backboiler ones). Depending on how much work is associated with removing them, it might be ok to leave them. If your thinking about re piping all of down stairs, wait till then to remove the dead legs.

You said he capped of the pipes, I take it he left the flow and return from the back boiler open? and drilled into the back boiler? Check both have been done, if not your back boiler could explode from too much heat in the fire.

You should figure out the first task and start from there, you may end up getting confused with all the information, so work out what you want to attempt first.

manus30

Stratocaster wrote: »

No Bother, you can never have too much insulation. The bead idea is a good idea. From my experience working north of the border, thats all they use up there, all the houses I worked on were built with no insulation in the cavity. Once the house was complete with windows and roof, they would drill the walls and fill the cavity's with beads.

I'll have a look at the long runs in your other post. Dead legs are not good in a system but if they are only short runs, they would not effect the system too much (backboiler ones). Depending on how much work is associated with removing them, it might be ok to leave them. If your thinking about re piping all of down stairs, wait till then to remove the dead legs.

You said he capped of the pipes, I take it he left the flow and return from the back boiler open? and drilled into the back boiler? Check both have been done, if not your back boiler could explode from too much heat in the fire.

You should figure out the first task and start from there, you may end up getting confused with all the information, so work out what you want to attempt first.

sorry i should have explained earlier, the backboiler was removed and replaced with a gas fire. the supply and return pipes were just blanked off in the wall beside the fire. thanks for reply