RGII and electricians

With the pitter, patter of RGII inspectors feet across the country i thought i would give yee the heads up on the situation as i see it, when you wire a boiler now it's who ever wires it that is responsible for it's impact on boiler safety, not the plumber and you can be prosecuted under the new regs, when a boiler is being wired you must wire it asper the manufactures instructions to protect yourselves from any grief, when you leave a job and your work is being inspected at anytime after, it's the M instructions the inspectors will be using to decide if the heating system is wired correctly and safely not IS813 which is the gas standards, if you wire outside of the M instructions it maybe still right, but you are relying on the inspector to agree with what you have done and at times they just don't get it, if thats the case they can make you rewire to M instructions. I am a manufactures technician for my sins and on a weekly basis i come across basic wiring mistakes, which leave who ever wired it wide open for having to rewire or a large fine or prison(don't pick up the soap:eek:), i kid you not, the kind of things i come across would be no permanent live, permanent live but programmer controls the zone valves only, leaving boiler on and the boiler then can overheat as the plumber hasn't fitted a bypass, no isolation switch within arms length of the boiler, at the moment i know the isolation switch is something they are looking out for and they are shutting down boilers on whole estates and making the electricians come back and rewire the whole site, one site rewire was 3 years after installation, the more serious would be when the earth is being used as a switch live because 4 core was needed and 3 core was fitted and there is a belief that the earthing used for the heating pipework is sufficient, it's not, also on some boilers the wiring can be a bit funky, permanent live to the boiler goes into a safety PCB then it leaves the boiler to any external switching programmers, room stats etc... and then it comes back to the second PCB at a given point on the boiler, if it's not wired properly and there is a switch live coming back to the second PCB that has not gone via the first safety PCB then the boiler will stay alight after a safety device has triggered risking a kaboom, not a common type of boiler wiring but they are out there, if you follow the manual you will have no problems and nobody can argue with you,it's all about a quite life. Be careful not to follow the instructions of external wiring centers ie system link without checking they are compatible with the boiler instructions.

One more thing, induction, if you are wiring a boiler and and it's using volts free switching for it's external controls, run a separate cable to keep it away from the 240, if you run with power supply on the same cable the boiler can fire for heating with no call from the programmer because of induction. I'll shut up now, Gary.

davelerave

would agree with a lot of that.obviously wiring for probes and volt-free separated or screened from mains.appliance earth taken from supply cable not main bonding.valves and boiler properly co-ordinated .
safe isolation of boiler and manifolds etc. via multipole switches
using an earth as a circuit conductor or phase is high-risk.i know from experience!
i'm cautious atm about isolating individual sections of a heating system such as a hot press manifold with 2-supplies via dp switch .i would maybe attach label indicating location of main isolator elsewhere
couple of points .sometimes the sparkie doesn't get all the neccessary heating info upfront.you just have to allow extra control wires and supplies for unforseens and also some of these systems are not being 'commissioned' as they should be .this is not the sparkies problem

I only get to see the things that have gone pear shaped, i don't want to sound like I'm sparky bashing or telling yee how to suck eggs:D, i know your not mind readers and that a lot of installers don't care or understand about wiring, as far as RGII are concerned it's all about how the gas appliance is wired and it's external components. Most manufactures will only show y plan or s plan wiring diagrams in the instructions and if thats what you are wiring it must conform, if you are wiring a system thats is not a y or s plan you must still meet the manufactures instructions in respect of the boiler, but then rely on your own wiring regs and experience for anything outside of the M instructions ie.. under floor heating thats is separate from the rad circuit, if you feel the plumber hasn't done enough for you to be able to do your job properly then i would walk away, because RGII inspectors are just itching to ruin somebody's day:(, the regs can protect you if you meet them but crucify you if you don't, this just my opinions on things, but i would be seeking advise from your unions once the other business is sorted out of course, to clarify where yee stand, Gary

Stratocaster

Once you wire up the boiler you are now responsible for it sounds strange to me, but I am not surprised if its anyway associated with bord gas.

They try to remove all responsibility from there gas lines by introducing bizarre policy's, yet they set up a regulation system so that its certified installers contribute towards there own insurance policy's. Its a crazy system within bord gas.

I feel they know the standard of installations across the country have been atrocious over the last ten years and they are now doing everything they can to cover tracks before the law suits start coming in.

Stratocaster

Stratocaster wrote: »

Once you wire up the boiler you are now responsible for it sounds strange to me, but I am not surprised if its anyway associated with bord gas.
.

To clarify a installation Must meet IS813, that will say a installation must meet manufactures instructions, because in Ireland it's common place to split the installation down the middle with the two trades each one would be responsible for their part of the work, so if it's a flue fault it will have no impact on the sparky, now with the blame game it could be said the buck stops with the commissioning engineer, but in my experience they will go after the original installer/electrician as well, Gary

Stratocaster

gary71 wrote: »

To clarify a installation Must meet IS813, that will say a installation must meet manufactures instructions, because in Ireland it's common place to split the installation down the middle with the two trades each one would be responsible for their part of the work, so if it's a flue fault it will have no impact on the sparky, now with the blame game it could be said the buck stops with the commissioning engineer, but in my experience they will go after the original installer/electrician as well, Gary

They keep changing the regulation and its hard to follow. I know someone who has been installing and maintaining Gas systems even before Gas became a natural supply. This person worked hand in hand with Bord Gas and became one of the main installers when the Gas supply became introduced throughout Ireland.

With all these new regulations and courses over the years he is now un qualified to attempt any gas related works. I am sure there is a few more in the same situation.

From the course waiting lists and extra fees introduced Bord Gas pushed him out. He decided to remove the responsibility and pay the cert fee for outside installers. I think this loop hole has now been closed as I haven't seen him do any Gas works recently.

It's a shame he didn't get registered, you don't need to be qualified to join RGII you just need to have your gas certs, which are a proof of competency and not to be mistaken for a qualification ie.. C & G, both the GID and the GIS are unfailable papers to sit and are not to be afraid of, it's the same way in the north i can as a Corgi registered gas engineer with part P accreditation, i can rewire a house or do a new installation up to the fuse board and test/sign off on my own work, i am not a electrician and haven't earned it yet i can legally work as a sparky, because i have proved i am competent, as mad as that sounds that's what is heading here as the Government will get a big slice of the papers that must be sat every 5 years, to do my original job as a emergency gas engineer i had one qualification, now there are 156 ACS competency papers in the UK that would have to be done to match that 1 C&G paper and at £150 per paper you can see why they want to have us all registered here, Gary the sparky:cool:.

Stratocaster

gary71 wrote: »

It's a shame he didn't get registered, you don't need to be qualified to join RGII you just need to have your gas certs, which are a proof of competency and not to be mistaken for a qualification ie.. C & G, both the GID and the GIS are unfailable papers to sit and are not to be afraid of, it's the same way in the north i can as a Corgi registered gas engineer with part P accreditation, i can rewire a house or do a new installation up to the fuse board and test/sign off on my own work, i am not a electrician and haven't earned it yet i can legally work as a sparky, because i have proved i am competent, as mad as that sounds that's what is heading here as the Government will get a big slice of the papers that must be sat every 5 years, to do my original job as a emergency gas engineer i had one qualification, now there are 156 ACS competency papers in the UK that would have to be done to match that 1 C&G paper and at £150 per paper you can see why they want to have us all registered here, Gary the sparky:cool:.

What you mention in the end of the post is the reason why he wont go through with all the new certs, he believes he is entitled to be a certified installer as he has been doing the works through Bord gas since the gas first became available. He doesn't mind taking a refresher course to be aware of some new additions but its paying all that money for a course which covers most of everything he knows, that's the problem.

Bord Gas are more interested in receiving the money from the installer if you don't pay up, your not part of the team. I don't believe its anything to do with credentials or ability's if your get me. I feel this is a lot to do with problems coming up from bad installations and there only now tightening up. It should have been done a long time ago.

I have seen a few boiler installations on new builds, simple things like no fused spur, yet the gas meter is on giving a full supply. Crazy stuff.

2011

at the moment i know the isolation switch is something they are looking out for and they are shutting down boilers on whole estates and making the electricians come back and rewire the whole site

I think the isolation switch is very important, but I have never heard of electricians being made to come back and rewire a whole estste. Can you give an example of where this happened??

the kind of things i come across would be no permanent live

I have seen this

the more serious would be when the earth is being used as a switch live because 4 core was needed and 3 core was fitted and there is a belief that the earthing used for the heating pipework is sufficient

...and this. The 4 core flex should heat resistant too.

Many electricians dont seem to know what the auxillary connections on zone valves are for either.

Interesting post Garry!

My own belief is that when the boiler, associated zone valves, stats etc are properly wired and installed not only is the installation safer, but the user gains far better control of the system and saves money on heating bills.

2011

2011 wrote: »

I think the isolation switch is very important, but I have never heard of electricians being made to come back and rewire a whole estste. Can you give an example of where this happened??

There is a habit of positioning the isolation switch for the boiler in with the cylinder where the zone valves are, especially if the hot press is off the kitchen, there is a site thats has my boilers on them that Bord gais went out to, they decided that the position and labeling of the isolation switch was insufficient, they shut off the boiler and instructed the builders to rectify, it was the builders who put pressure on the electricians to sort it, this was made difficult by not having a big enough core between the boiler and the original switch position, this was 3 years after completion, but if am being honest i didn't see this first hand, if you want first hand experience, recently i went to a new build council site with hundredish boilers on it, the boiler i went to which wasn't firing, had no isolation switch near it,it was in the hot press, no earth:eek: , the earth wire was carrying 240v as a switch live and there was no tape on it to identify as 240v (which somehow made it worse), the problem with the boiler was it used low voltage switching for the heating call and as this fruit loop put 240 into it he broke the boiler:mad:, now when i come across things like this i may think the sparks a prat, but i have made enough stupid mistakes in my time not to want to drop anyone in it, so i had a look around site to see if this fault was a one off or if there was more f ups, i am sorry to say the whole site was the same, i got the number for the sparky to give him the heads up (nicely), his response was that the wiring met his regs and told me to feck off, long story short i had to throw my weight around to get the site rewired to manufactures instructions at a cost to the electrician, what disappointed me was as this site was for community care people and as a trades man you should do that little bit more to insure safety, the sparky just didn't get it, if i had been a sod and gone to RECI first he would have been screwed, i find it quite difficult advising sparkys as you lot tend to think i am talking out of my back side(which has been known) or I'm trying to make more work for yee, but when it comes to wiring of boilers the only way is the right way and i have read the instruction(it's got pictures as well):), Gary.

davelerave

so this site where the same basic mistakes are replicated all over.i assume nothing has been commissioned or checked.surely the equipment suppliers or installers can liase with the sparkie 'in the first instance' to correct these basic errors

2011

surely the equipment suppliers or installers can liase with the sparkie 'in the first instance' to correct these basic errors

Why should the supplier have to explain basic stuff that is already an electrical regulation??? Electrical Contractors are supposed to know certain basic stuff, like:

1) A fixed appliance such as a boiler must have local isolation. The same rule applies to a cooker, immersion etc.

2) This is not permitted: "the earth wire was carrying 240v as a switch live"

the problem with the boiler was it used low voltage switching for the heating call and as this fruit loop put 240 into it he broke the boiler

Clearly the sparks never bothered to read the manual.
I can understand an electrician not knowing that a boiler was using a volt free contact or ELV for control before reading the manual that comes with the boiler, but not after.

As they say, RTFM!

All boilers were commissioned on paper only and the first phase had people moving in, they were using their immersions for hot water and i got called in when the boilers didn't fire, with these boilers when you put 240 on the call side it messes up the logic, there's no bang and all the lights stay on.

Equipment suppliers will happily answer any question asked, but they need to be asked in the first place, installers tend not to understand wiring, if they did they wouldn't need the sparky.

All due respect but wiring a S plan is as simple as it gets, if i have to tell a qualified electrician how to do that then there's a problem, all boiler manuals give a wiring diagram on how to do it, it's not rocket science, now i can understand if the goal posts are moved and you now have to take volt free switching in to account, but I'm just talking about the basics most of the time, not wiring some funky system link with solar thats using the heating system as a heat a dump, i find most systems are wired outside of the regs, all be it in a little way or big, the point i am trying to get across is before the new gas regs came into force, nobody apart from manufactures gas engineers like myself were picking up these faults, so the chances of getting pulled up were slim and Bord Gais had no power, now you have RGII with inspectors going out and putting effort into checking installations and they have the power to go after who ever has done the work, the chances are when it comes to wiring they may not notice, but why take the risk, i think every individual sparky should be looking at their working practices, it won't be the suppler or installer that will be getting the fine for dodgy wiring, step forward sparky and commissioning engineer and get your cheque books out, Gary.

A couple of little tips, on most boilers there will be a link, if you make and break this link you can interrupt the call for heating, it's best working practice to bring back to the right side side of the link what ever originated on the left, i find one wire normally 240v on the call side of the link, if the boiler faults it may not be able to shut down if there is 240v on the call side also you will give me a belt(if i haven't done my basic safety checks) if what ever is coming back is not going via the off button on the boiler, with volt free use the orange and the gray on the two ports and try to separate it from 240 the best you can, if you haven't enough cable for your volt free you can always use a relay fitted locally to the boiler, the power cable for the boiler is cut to the correct size and of the correct material to meet regs, so try to use it, most manufacture have someone like me so if you don't get the wiring then get us in, Gary.

davelerave

all the terminal blocks for ufh or basic wiring centres facilitate a 'call loop' or 'control loop'.i would prob be thinking of one-off systems or more complex systemns that need some planning or testing.the earth as phase is dangerous anyhow

2011

if i have to tell a qualified electrician how to do that then there's a problem, all boiler manuals give a wiring diagram on how to do it

Yes, that was the point I was making too!

now i can understand if the goal posts are moved and you now have to take volt free switching in to account

Yes, but this would always be clearly shown in the manual.

2011

2011 wrote: »

Yes, that was the point I was making too!.

Sorry pal, i missed your post cos of the one finger typing:)

2011 wrote: »

Yes, but this would always be clearly shown in the manual.

Yep, I'd be out of a job if people started reading them, decent sparkys don't need my help or info, but the lazy ones make me look very clever:D, Gary

davelerave

2011 wrote: »

Yes, that was the point I was making too!


Yes, but this would always be clearly shown in the manual.

i would argue for sparkie on issues with heating systems.but in fairness these are basic wiring errors.i'm totally 'blonde' on gas im afraid as we don't have it hereabouts

2011

i would argue for sparkie on issues with heating systems

If the sparks is not sure he can:
1) Read the manual
2) Phone the supplier

It is always good for him to have a word with the plumber too. This way the plumber and electrician are working together.

but in fairness these are basic wiring errors

Yes, exactly

i'm totally 'blonde' on gas im afraid as we don't have it hereabouts

I have read enough of your posts to know that if you were connecting a gas boiler that you would ensure that you got the relevant information to ensure that your work is done correctly.

We all come across equipment that is unfamiliar from time to time, this is normal.

Maysemay 8

I am zoning my heating system at home,i will have 3 no.2 port valves 2 for heating zones and 1 for coil at hot water cylinder.I will have 2 room stats 1 upstairs 1 downstairs 1 cylinder stat and rest of controls.My question is as im not electrican is what size cables and what core cables do i use for stats valves time clock etc.Cheers.

davelerave wrote: »

would agree with a lot of that.obviously wiring for probes and volt-free separated or screened from mains.appliance earth taken from supply cable not main bonding.valves and boiler properly co-ordinated .
safe isolation of boiler and manifolds etc. via multipole switches
using an earth as a circuit conductor or phase is high-risk.i know from experience!
i'm cautious atm about isolating individual sections of a heating system such as a hot press manifold with 2-supplies via dp switch .i would maybe attach label indicating location of main isolator elsewhere
couple of points .sometimes the sparkie doesn't get all the neccessary heating info upfront.you just have to allow extra control wires and supplies for unforseens and also some of these systems are not being 'commissioned' as they should be .this is not the sparkies problem

davelerave

i use a 5*0.75 flex (no box) for a setpoint stat.The stat would be part of a control circuit.A wiring centre can relay power to a boiler, or the boiler may just have a 'call loop' and permanent supply.What type boiler and is all the equipment in close proximity?.someone will be able to advise you.