Just saw an attempted robbery, Question...

meglome

Happened to be next to my window and saw two young lads trying to kick in the front door of the apartment block, was going to tell them to **** off but they moved along. But only as far as a bike that was locked to the railings right below my window. Since quite obviously they were going to try and rob it I gave the guards a call. Luckily since I'm in Dublin city centre they usually show up within minutes. The two lads got spooked by traffic as they were trying to pull the bike off the lock and headed off. I called the guards again and gave them a description and a location. So the guards headed around the corner a moment after they did. So at the very least the lads will have got stopped and hassled.

My question is I've just seen these two guys try to steal a bike but the guards had no interest in taking my name or any details. I had to call them twice as they wouldn't have been able to follow the lads otherwise. They won't be able to do anything to the lads other than hassle them a bit because they didn't see it and they don't have my details to ask me. From what I've seen of the UK police they seem to do things differently. I've called the guards a few times over the years and they've never asked me for any personal details. Somehow this doesn't seem very professional to me. Am I missing something?

x MarK x

IMO, our cops are the worst, laziest, unprofessional shower of sh.ites, while being a law unto themselves. If you try to agrue, or put blame to a agarda for any reason, genuine or not, watch the response, nothing short of abuse. They answer calls if they feel like it.

meglome

I'd just like to reiterate they did show up in about 3 minutes so I'm not knocking as such, more curious. Although I get the feeling I'm not going to like what I find out.

TheNog

meglome wrote: »

Happened to be next to my window and saw two young lads trying to kick in the front door of the apartment block, was going to tell them to **** off but they moved along. But only as far as a bike that was locked to the railings right below my window. Since quite obviously they were going to try and rob it I gave the guards a call. Luckily since I'm in Dublin city centre they usually show up within minutes. The two lads got spooked by traffic as they were trying to pull the bike off the lock and headed off. I called the guards again and gave them a description and a location. So the guards headed around the corner a moment after they did. So at the very least the lads will have got stopped and hassled.

My question is I've just seen these two guys try to steal a bike but the guards had no interest in taking my name or any details. I had to call them twice as they wouldn't have been able to follow the lads otherwise. They won't be able to do anything to the lads other than hassle them a bit because they didn't see it and they don't have my details to ask me. From what I've seen of the UK police they seem to do things differently. I've called the guards a few times over the years and they've never asked me for any personal details. Somehow this doesn't seem very professional to me. Am I missing something?

You answered your own question tbh. There may have been attempt but no offence took place so there was no need to take your full details. What will be done however is information gathered that these lads were in your area and any thefts/burglaries that may have occured would automatically throw up these two as suspects.

If the two gougers did commit an offence before you saw them, your action to call the local station could very well solve a crime. If they hadnt committed any crime but it is obviously they had intent, you have probably just prevented a crime.

These are things that the general public dont see or know about Garda action but happens everyday of the week across the country.

x MarK x wrote: »

IMO, our cops are the worst, laziest, unprofessional shower of sh.ites, while being a law unto themselves. If you try to agrue, or put blame to a agarda for any reason, genuine or not, watch the response, nothing short of abuse. They answer calls if they feel like it.

Banned for a week. When you actually have something reasonable and intelligent to post, then you are welcome back.

meglome

TheNog wrote: »

You answered your own question tbh. There may have been attempt but no offence took place so there was no need to take your full details. What will be done however is information gathered that these lads were in your area and any thefts/burglaries that may have occured would automatically throw up these two as suspects.

If the two gougers did commit an offence before you saw them, your action to call the local station could very well solve a crime. If they hadnt committed any crime but it is obviously they had intent, you have probably just prevented a crime.

These are things that the general public dont see or know about Garda action but happens everyday of the week across the country.

Okay so far so good but...

The guards arrive and they see no one, these guys are hiding or have run around a corner or whatever. How can they follow up, they didn't even ask for a proper description or more exact details?

Trojan911

meglome wrote: »

My question is I've just seen these two guys try to steal a bike but the guards had no interest in taking my name or any details. I had to call them twice as they wouldn't have been able to follow the lads otherwise. They won't be able to do anything to the lads other than hassle them a bit because they didn't see it and they don't have my details to ask me. From what I've seen of the UK police they seem to do things differently. I've called the guards a few times over the years and they've never asked me for any personal details. Somehow this doesn't seem very professional to me. Am I missing something?

Dosen't sound right OP, I can only refer to the way the Met Police work in these scenarios.

Having worked in both CAD/PNC & Dispatch & also on the street with the Met as an officer, all personal details (Informant) are recorded on a computer before officers are dispatched to deal. The call would have been graded an"I" for immediate as there was an allegation of an offence in progress. A silent approach would normally be deployed if safe.

Then the informant is spoken to by officers attending and it is dealt with from there. Attempted Theft (bicycle), Criminal Damage/Attempted Burglary is what I would be considering. But Q&A's to the perps would be important as well as your information as well as examining the bike & door etc.

meglome

Trojan911 wrote: »

Dosen't sound right OP, I can only refer to the way the Met Police work in these scenarios.

Having worked in both CAD/PNC & Dispatch & also on the street with the Met as an officer, all personal details (Informant) are recorded on a computer before officers are dispatched to deal. The call would have been graded an"I" for immediate as there was an allegation of an offence in progress.

Then the informant is spoken to by officers attending and it is dealt with from there. Attempted Theft (bicycle), Criminal Damage/Attempted Burglary is what I would be considering. But Q&A's to the perps would be important as well as your information as well as examining the bike & door etc.

This is exactly where I'm coming from, the guards have never asked for my details no matter what I've reported. And since I've lived in Dublin city centre for a long time I've seen some **** over the years.

Trojan911

meglome wrote: »

This is exactly where I'm coming from, the guards have never asked for my details no matter what I've reported. And since I've lived in Dublin city centre for a long time I've seen some **** over the years.

The issue in these scenarios, not just yours, where members of the public have called in reporting crimes, if they are not recorded, then how accurate are the stats that are published?

Like I said, it doesn't sound right. Fair play to you for calling it in. I've called in one or two motoring offences and I know I've been fobbed of once or twice.

meglome

meglome wrote: »

This is exactly where I'm coming from, the guards have never asked for my details no matter what I've reported. And since I've lived in Dublin city centre for a long time I've seen some **** over the years.

The lads may have had something on them which meant they were arrested anyway. No need to call for you.

Section 15 Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001

TheNog

meglome wrote: »

Okay so far so good but...

The guards arrive and they see no one, these guys are hiding or have run around a corner or whatever. How can they follow up, they didn't even ask for a proper description or more exact details?

But didnt you call back the station and say they had run off and gave descriptions of them?

Trojan911 wrote: »

Dosen't sound right OP, I can only refer to the way the Met Police work in these scenarios.

Having worked in both CAD/PNC & Dispatch & also on the street with the Met as an officer, all personal details (Informant) are recorded on a computer before officers are dispatched to deal. The call would have been graded an"I" for immediate as there was an allegation of an offence in progress. A silent approach would normally be deployed if safe.

Then the informant is spoken to by officers attending and it is dealt with from there. Attempted Theft (bicycle), Criminal Damage/Attempted Burglary is what I would be considering. But Q&A's to the perps would be important as well as your information as well as examining the bike & door etc.

Unfortunately in Irish criminal law there is no attempted theft or burglary

See here for Theft - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0004.html

and here for Burglary - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0012.html

These are the laws Gardai must operate within.

meglome wrote: »

This is exactly where I'm coming from, the guards have never asked for my details no matter what I've reported. And since I've lived in Dublin city centre for a long time I've seen some **** over the years.

If you read the legislation you will see that although you saw an attempt at crime you actually saw no crime under our criminal law. However I will reiterate you did prevent a crime taking place and for that you should be commended.

Trojan911 wrote: »

The issue in these scenarios, not just yours, where members of the public have called in reporting crimes, if they are not recorded, then how accurate are the stats that are published?

Like I said, it doesn't sound right. Fair play to you for calling it in. I've called in one or two motoring offences and I know I've been fobbed of once or twice.

Same as above in no crime having been committed. What is even better than recording a crime is preventing a crime and recording intelligence on these two little gougers.

Trojan911

TheNog wrote: »

Unfortunately in Irish criminal law there is no attempted theft or burglary

Yes, I am aware of that here in Ireland and was quite surprised when I found out a couple of years ago. It's a great little act.

That's why I was giving the scenario from the UK side, as stated in my previous post.

sdanseo

x MarK x wrote: »

IMO, our cops are the worst, laziest, unprofessional shower of sh.ites, while being a law unto themselves. If you try to agrue, or put blame to a agarda for any reason, genuine or not, watch the response, nothing short of abuse. They answer calls if they feel like it.

Have you actually had a bad experience with them to back that up or are you just trolling?

Any experience I've ever had with Gardaí - and theres been a few already - or even Airport Police has always been good, the best I could ask, even for trivial things. Ok a couple of the lads on station suty have looked a bit gormless but sure anyone would be bored just stamping forms while the other lads are storming past into squad cars etc.

Maybe it's got something to do with asking nicely rather than demanding?

TheNog wrote: »

Unfortunately in Irish criminal law there is no attempted theft or burglary

See here for Theft - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0004.html

and here for Burglary - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0012.html

These are the laws Gardai must operate within.

So does that mean if a Garda sees a scumbag about to put a window through, he has to actually wait for him to smash it in order to be able to charge him with anything? Or would the act of preparing to do it be an offence?

civdef

Unfortunately in Irish criminal law there is no attempted theft or burglary

Does Section 2(1) of the Criminal Law Act 1997 factor into that?

Criminal Law Act, 1997


Interpretation.
2.—(1) In this Act, and in any amendment made by this Act in any other enactment—
"arrestable offence" means an offence for which a person of full capacity and not previously convicted may, under or by virtue of any enactment, be punished by imprisonment for a term of five years or by a more severe penalty and includes an attempt to commit any such offence;
"fixed by law", in relation to a sentence for an arrestable offence, means a sentence which the court is required by law to impose on an offender, being a person of full capacity.
(2) Any reference in this Act to any other enactment shall, except so far as the context otherwise requires, be construed as a reference to that enactment as amended by or under any other enactment, including this Act.
(3) In this Act, a reference to a section is to a section of this Act and a reference to a subsection or paragraph is to the subsection or paragraph of the provision in which the reference occurs, unless it is indicated that reference to some other enactment or provision, as may be appropriate, is intended.

Also Section 10 of same act

10.—(1) Where a person is convicted on indictment of an offence against any enactment and is for that offence liable to be sentenced to imprisonment but the sentence is not by any enactment either limited to a specified term or expressed to extend to imprisonment for life, the person so convicted shall be liable to imprisonment for not more than two years
(2) A person convicted on indictment of an attempt to commit an offence for which a maximum term of imprisonment or a maximum fine is provided by an enactment shall not be sentenced to imprisonment for a term longer, or a fine larger, than that which could be imposed for the completed offence.
(3) Where a person is convicted on indictment of any offence other than an offence for which the sentence is fixed by law, the court, if not precluded from doing so by its exercise of some other power, may impose a fine in lieu of or in addition to dealing with the offender in any other way in which the court has power to deal with him or her, subject however to any enactment limiting the amount of the fine that may be imposed or requiring the offender to be dealt with in a particular way.
(4) Notwithstanding anything in any enactment whereby power is conferred on a court, on the conviction of a person of an offence, to bind the offender over to keep the peace or to be of good behaviour, that power may be exercised without sentencing the offender to a fine or to imprisonment.
(5) A person sent forward to a court for sentence under section 13 (2) of the Criminal Procedure Act, 1967 with a plea of guilty of an offence may be dealt with in all respects as if he or she had been convicted on indictment of the offence by that court.

Admittedly grasping at straws here - and with no training in Irish Criminal Law. I always understood an attempt to commit an indictable offence is the same as committing it.

meglome

foreign wrote: »

The lads may have had something on them which meant they were arrested anyway. No need to call for you.

Section 15 Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001

I saw the cop car come back around and stop to look at the bike for a moment, there was no one else in it. They were gone long enough to stop the two lads and have a talk. They didn't even get out and actually look at the bike up close.

TheNog wrote: »

But didnt you call back the station and say they had run off and gave descriptions of them?

I did indeed, otherwise the two lads wouldn't have even been spoken to. But in a professional police force they should be taking details if you want to give them. Only my opinion sure, but it makes sense to me.

TheNog wrote: »

Unfortunately in Irish criminal law there is no attempted theft or burglary

These are the laws Gardai must operate within.

If you read the legislation you will see that although you saw an attempt at crime you actually saw no crime under our criminal law. However I will reiterate you did prevent a crime taking place and for that you should be commended.

Same as above in no crime having been committed. What is even better than recording a crime is preventing a crime and recording intelligence on these two little gougers.

You see this just astonishes me. If someone has been seen trying to steal something that should be a crime. I see people in Dublin city centre, sometimes daily, eyeing up peoples property, waiting next to cars, looking over bikes etc. It's obvious they are looking for opportunities to steal and given this isn't a crime that would explain how they can easily do this. We can bring in a bull**** blasphemy law but trying to steal isn't a crime, sweet holy christ.

I called the guards and stopped this crime sure, but given that I see this stuff nearly every day I don't feel that great about it. Most of the times I see this stuff it's broad daylight.

meglome

sdonn wrote:

Vote NO to Lisbon 2. The people have already spoken, holding this second referendum is tantamount to treason on behalf of the government.

Off topic sorry but that statement in your sig is ridiculous. Our government are a walking cluster**** but there's no rule that says they can't rerun a referendum if they want whether we like it or not. And let's face it they've done it before, maybe people shouldn't have voted for them.

Sorry...

Diairist

2 replies to Meglome: note the time of yr 1st post. Were you 'lucky' in that the event happened when there was no shift change and not at 'meal break' time?

other topic - same whinge relating to the Nice Treaty. Caused a brilliant letter to Irish Times (after Nice treaty was accepted): Clearly if the Irish public is asked a 2nd time they produce the desired answer. Can we please now have another general election. (No - there was no rerun of the general election)

sdanseo

meglome wrote: »

Off topic sorry but that statement in your sig is ridiculous. Our government are a walking cluster**** but there's no rule that says they can't rerun a referendum if they want whether we like it or not. And let's face it they've done it before, maybe people shouldn't have voted for them.

Sorry...

Just because it isn't written in law doesn't mean its not a fact, or not my opinion. Next time you want to comment on my sig maybe take the 10 seconds required to find my last posts and reply on the Lisbon thread instead....just a suggestion.

"Sorry..."

Shield

meglome wrote: »

Off topic sorry but that statement in your sig is ridiculous. Our government are a walking cluster**** but there's no rule that says they can't rerun a referendum if they want whether we like it or not. And let's face it they've done it before, maybe people shouldn't have voted for them.

Sorry...

You're around long enough to know that you don't challenge the content of someone's sig in a completely unrelated thread. Apologising in advance doesn't make it ok either. Consider this a warning: Don't do it again in this forum.

This thread is now back on topic.

TheNog

meglome wrote: »

I did indeed, otherwise the two lads wouldn't have even been spoken to. But in a professional police force they should be taking details if you want to give them. Only my opinion sure, but it makes sense to me.

If I may ask why should your details be taken if no crime has been committed?
What would you like to be done with your details?

IMO the incident was dealt with efficiently. A crime was prevented by the Gardai and yourself, their details taken and more than likely intelligence recorded. I see no need to take your details.

You see this just astonishes me. If someone has been seen trying to steal something that should be a crime. I see people in Dublin city centre, sometimes daily, eyeing up peoples property, waiting next to cars, looking over bikes etc. It's obvious they are looking for opportunities to steal and given this isn't a crime that would explain how they can easily do this. We can bring in a bull**** blasphemy law but trying to steal isn't a crime, sweet holy christ.

Creation of any criminal law has very little to do with AGS as we dont create them.

meglome

Diairist wrote: »

2 replies to Meglome: note the time of yr 1st post. Were you 'lucky' in that the event happened when there was no shift change and not at 'meal break' time?

Where I am in town I find the Garda response time to be excellent. My questioning was to establish why things are done the way they are.

meglome

TheNog wrote: »

If I may ask why should your details be taken if no crime has been committed?
What would you like to be done with your details?

My details have never been taken. For example when I saw a guy beating (I assume) his wife or girlfriend in the street they didn't ask me for any details then either. Is that a crime? Were all my calls over the years recorded and counted in the crime stats?

Why in the name of jiggery pokery would attempting to steal not be a crime?

TheNog wrote: »

IMO the incident was dealt with efficiently. A crime was prevented by the Gardai and yourself, their details taken and more than likely intelligence recorded. I see no need to take your details.

I have no issue with the speed of the response that's for sure. However, how these calls are administered I do have questions about.

TheNog wrote: »

Creation of any criminal law has very little to do with AGS as we dont create them.

I never suggested otherwise but surely (it seems to me) they should be crying out to close such an obvious hole in the law?

TheNog

meglome wrote: »

My details have never been taken. For example when I saw a guy beating (I assume) his wife or girlfriend in the street they didn't ask me for any details then either. Is that a crime?

Yes that is an assault but if both people are spoken to and neither are willing to make a compliant then there is nothing that can be done with it. No investigation can began without a formal written complaint first.

However if no complaint is forthcoming then the fella or the girl or both can be arrested or later summonsed for public order

Trojan911

TheNog wrote: »

Yes that is an assault but if both people are spoken to and neither are willing to make a compliant then there is nothing that can be done with it. No investigation can began without a formal written complaint first.

However if no complaint is forthcoming then the fella or the girl or both can be arrested or later summonsed for public order

What the OP is asking here is "why were his details not taken"? There surely had to be a system where the informant details are recorded. He is a witness to an assault. A statement needs to be taken from him should he be required at court to give evidence.

Should that assault turn to murder/manslaughter potentially AGS have just lost a vital witness because informant details were not taken. Or if an officer suffers fatal injuries as a result of attending the scene, questions are going to be asked where initially did this info come from because there is another witness about but we can't speak to him 'cos we didn't take his details.......

This should be the same for any crimes that are called in.