Should the Celtic Crusaders experiment be scrapped?

Stev_o

Yes i know we'v been all been thinking it all year long but seriously should the Super League keep up this experiment? I know they have a 3 year licence but christ if this season is anything to go by it doesn't look good for them especially when you look at a team like Widnes, Halifax and Barrow all making big strides. What do people think?

WakeyTyke

Stev_o wrote: »

Yes i know we'v been all been thinking it all year long but seriously should the Super League keep up this experiment? I know they have a 3 year licence but christ if this season is anything to go by it doesn't look good for them especially when you look at a team like Widnes, Halifax and Barrow all making big strides. What do people think?

I can remember exactly the same being said about Catalan in their first season and now they are an integral and worthy part of the SL. Of course Celtic were always going to struggle in their first season, particularly with the poor recruitment of players they brought into SL. I am sure they will improve their squad for next season and the sharp learning curve they have experienced this season will stand them in good stead.

Whilst Widnes, Halifax and Barrow have my sympathies, you also have Leigh and Featherstone who would make strong claims for SL status, but you can't accommodate everyone. Their chance will come again in only 18 months to re-apply for a franchise.

couerdelion

Give them a chance!

Look how newly promoted teams struggle in the Premier League. Those who manage to survive then find the second season tough before coming into their own in the third season. They won't be last in year three.

Dozen Wicked Words

I think the introduction of Celtic was probably a year or so too early but now they are here it is far too early to pull the plug on them. Expansion is good for the game (speaking as a Quins RL fan!).

Hopefully the finances will be shored up and where they are going to play sorted. I don't know if local press in Wales have got behind the Crusaders, I know Harlequins still struggle to get much recognition in London, which doesn't help their cause.

toomevara

Given whats emerged recently with their aussie players, its clear that both the RFL and the management of the Crusaders have a lot of questions to answer. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the expansion of the game, but its got to be done in a rational, logical manner which doesn't make a nonsense of the game and drag it into disrepute. Salford, for example, have done it right and more power to them

Clearly the desire to push a team in Wales trumped more mundane concerns such as squad member eligibilty, stadium facilities etc..For me, what is most galling about this is, despite the claims to the contrary by the folk at the RFL, the Crusaders did, clearly get special consideration over and above the likes of halifax, widnes, barrow etc...

On paper Widnes and Halifax met all the criteria for SL inclusion to a much higher degree than Celtic. Their stadium facilities are brilliant and they've got settled squads with lots of homegrown talent. They'd have been a far better addition to the SL on every level, and its clear that the major reason they didn't get a SL franchise was that well, they weren't in Wales!!!..I've seen both 'Fax and Widnes play this year and I'd say that they'd give any SL team a run for their money and would comprehensively hammer the current (illegal immigrant free:D) Celtic squad.

The SL now has a massive problem. Celtic, shorn of their second rate Aussie mercenaries are now barely a championship quality outfit, never mind an SL quality one, Yet they're locked into the SL for the next two years. An embarrassment and no mistake. Were it up to me I'd kick 'em out and give Widnes the SL berth. They are an SL outfit in all bit name. It'll never happen though, the RFL would never admit to a cock-up of such a magnitude.

ednwireland

brian noble made coach

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_league/super_league/celtic_crusaders/8302203.stm

Dozen Wicked Words

I don't doubt that Noble is a great coach who brings a wealth of experience that to the club. What might be of bigger significance to Celtic is Noble is an established in the Super League, almost a brand in himself (!), a respected figure, and one who might make it even harder for the RFL to knock the experiment on the head.

That's if his wages don't skint the club first of course. :pac:

toomevara

If anyone can save the Crusaders its got to be Noble. Apparently he's got a shopping list and cash is available. Former Hull FC props Paul king and Jamie Thackray have been mentioned. He's also got former GB coach Jon Sharpe and current welsh coach Iestyn Harris on board. No flies on any of those guys. Reckon we could be looking at mid-table respectability for the Welsh boys next year....

*apparently Noble's making noises about one G.Henson as well....*
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12196_5628873,00.html

Stev_o

So what exactly will be Welsh about the Crusaders bar the location?

Dozen Wicked Words

Stev_o wrote: »

So what exactly will be Welsh about the Crusaders bar the location?

What was french about the Catalans when they first started? What was London about the Broncos? Both were full of Australian imports and little home-grown talent at the start.

Broadening my point, what is Irish about the national team, or Scots about the Scottish team, both full to the brim of outside players, not much home-grown talent in either squad.

I agree the Crusaders aren't a glowing example of expansion, but it takes time to establish. Outside the top 3 or 4 clubs, the majority of teams will have a few graduates from academies or "locals" but mostly they will have players from other clubs who haven't cut it.

toomevara

Stev_o wrote: »

So what exactly will be Welsh about the Crusaders bar the location?

Get the sentiment behind your questions Stev_o, but in fairness the visa-gate farrago might be the best thing to happen to the crusaders from this point of view. They were forced this year to give a number of academy players a go at SL level and some seem to have potential. Noble will also have no choice but to go down this road because, although the cash is there for a few big money signings the rest will have to be made up by talent already there or from the academy side.

I'd have to say I was not a fan of the crusaders getting the nod for SL, I thought that by the RFL's own stated criteria they didn't deserve to go up, but the desire to spread the game to Wales trumped logic and rationality. They've got two more years, we're stuck with them so I hope they can make a go of it. But, if they haven't got their act together by then, the welsh experiment should be abandoned for the forseeable and the likes of Widnes, Barrow, Featherstone or Halifax should be given their shot, all, imo, far better candidates for promotion than the Crusaders ever were.

WakeyTyke

If Noble, with his wealth of experience in the game, can't develop a team that is competitive in the SL then the Welsh experiment will once again flounder.

Last season clearly showed that the Crusaders were not ready for the step-up to the SL and the whole set-up appeared naive and amateurish.

Hopefully this progressive step forward will be reflected in bigger attendances and a higher profile for the game in Wales.

toomevara

They've dropped 'celtic' from the name. Henceforth they shall be referred to as merely the crusaders. Apparently too identified with old Celtic Warriors rugby team...

WakeyTyke

Interesting article in The Sun -

"It could soon be Paris here we come - again!

Max Guazini, the multi-millionaire owner of the Stade de France, and the casino-owning Patouche family want the 13-a-side code back.

The job of returning Super League to the French capital - Paris St Germain lasted three seasons from 1995 - has been handed to Bernard Laporte.

I understand Laporte, the former French Minister of Sport and French rugby union international coach, was in England this week to meet the Rugby League International Board to update them on the project.

Stade Francais, the union team also owned by Guazini, recently pulled in 80,000 for a Top 14 fixture with Toulouse. And Guazini is convinced 'the other code' would be equally successful in Paris - though probably in a newly-built 30,000-40,000 capacity venue.

He and the Patouche family would also entirely fund the new team, which would more than likely be fast-tracked into Super League rather than having to come through the other two divisions.

At the moment the Catalans Dragons receive huge financial assistance from Super League Europe and the English RFL fund Championship club Toulouse as well.

A source close to Laporte said: "A new team is the buzz word in Paris. The money men are convinced they can make a go of it."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/rugby_league/2716918/New-team-is-a-capital-plan.html#ixzz0W73NIMK7


If a Parisian team comes forward with a creditable business plan and structures for the development of the game in the French capital then I really can't see the RFL refusing them a SL franchise.

toomevara

Make no mistake, for me France is the sleeping giant of rugby league. I reckon if the likes of Guazini get behind the game the sky's the limit. Get Toulouse in the SL and a Paris based team and we're away. Always thought, temperamentally the French would gravitate more naturally towards RL.... here's hoping.....

WakeyTyke

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sports/rugby-league-news/2009/11/26/rugby-league-kevin-ellis-calls-crusaders-plan-a-tragedy-91466-25253709/

Looks like the Welsh 'experiment' is once again turning into a complete shambles

Dozen Wicked Words

So playing devils advocate again, of course its imperfect they have no secured venue, so close to another season but the RL have allowed a London club to play in a number of different venues, we had a couple of seasons where venue was tbc coming into a season, and been called a number of different names. Catalans have played in more than one venue.

Kevin Ellis has a valid point when he says any development work is wasted moving away from Bridgend, the objection that Wrexham is only 30 minutes from Widnes is frankly a bit childish, Wrexham is still in Wales and surely that is the object of expansion, they are fiercely welsh, home of more welsh speakers than South Wales. Not exactly sure how far down the pecking order Ellis is, presumably below Harris and Sharp but it is wholly unprofessional slagging off your own club no matter how amateurish they may be. You don't sh*t on your own doorstep, thats doing the naysayers work for them.

Its a time for pragmatism, it has not been well organised (yes, that is an understatement) but the SL aren't going to change their mind until the next round of franchise applications, those hard done by clubs in the Championship will have to wait.

Expansion is important, there was always going to be a least a couple of worthy clubs missing out on a franchise and being unhappy, if a welsh team hadn't got in, there would still have been unhappy clubs. If not about Crusaders, it would probably would have been Salford or Harlequins those teams complained.

WakeyTyke

This situation raises a few pertinent issues -

Firstly, a club relocating, even temporarily, over 200kms for it's home matches is far more likely to alienate it's fans, reducing rather than growing its support. This seems an act of desperation, if it comes to pass.

How closely did the RFL scrutinise the Crusader's business plan when giving them a franchise Licence?

The fact that Samuel's appears to be getting cold feet after only one season and is looking for an exit strategy could indicate that the RFL may well have been overly keen in expanding to Wales.

If the Crusaders do move permanently to Wrexham it will be a hugely retrograde step, moving a Superleague club to a soccer area with no rugby heritage, makes a mockery of whole principle of the franchise system.

Dozen Wicked Words

I agree with most of your points really, just attempting some defence of a new club. I think the RFL did take their eyes off the ball in an over zealous search for expansion, but this is only going to be reversed next franchise round and the failing Crusaders need support, not death by a thousand cuts. (they are self-inflicting enough)


One point I would disagree is the idea that the move to Wrexham (for all its other ills) is bad because there is no Rugby heritage there.

Union heritage is a part of London, but this has done nothing for my team. I would say less than a handful fans of Quins Union team attend one or more League games a season. Union is a Middle class game and most of its supporters, at Quins anyway, have little interest in RL.

A soccer supporter in north Wales may be as likely to gravitate toward RL as a Union fan would be.

Crusaders may ultimately prove a failure (and it doesn't look in great shape), but I hope if it is, there isn't a pull back into the "local sport for local people" argument.

WakeyTyke

I actually was in favour, with reservations, of the Crusaders being given a Superleague licence. Unlike in England, rugby union is very much a working class sport and has a lot of similiarities to the rugby league's heartland and I genuinely believe that RL can be nurtured and, over time, establish a strong and vibrant base in the area.

It is therefore with sadness that I comment on their plight. However, my main concern is the credibility, well-being and development of the sport I love.

My hope is, if there are financial difficulties besetting the Crusaders, that a local consortium will come forward to keep them based in south Wales.

Whilst I would also welcome RL development in north Wales to believe that this could be achieved by parachuting a team from the highest level of the sport into the area is a recipe for disaster for the game.

Dozen Wicked Words

'Tyke, on reflection, I think you are probably right really, just such a shame the franchise system hasn't really worked out this time around as well as I had hoped (I am sure the RFL are more disappointed than me though!!). I am beginning to lose hope for them and my arguments are a bit hollow tbh.

A couple of less than good news stories for them here too:

RFL increasingly worried about lack of ground

Another nail financially in their coffin caused by the Visa farce?

Oh well, not over til the fat lady sings I suppose.

toomevara

Guys if I might quote Han Solo; "I've got a very bad feeling about this"...no ground, possible £60,000 fine, none of the reputed decent signings. I agree with most of the sentiments expressed above and I'd love to see a successful "franchise' (God, I hate that word) in Wales...but the whole affair seems to have been premature and mishandled....

Dozen Wicked Words

So, Crusaders are not only club under threat.
RFL Chairman has the Quins RL in his cross hairs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_league/super_league/london/8388266.stm

From the link:
"There has been criticism from some quarters within the game that Quins receive preferential treatment because of their location. "I think it is understandable that some people are saying there should be as much pressure on them as other clubs in terms of pulling their weight in Super League."

His comments don't fill me with much hope.

Harlequins RL have been told to try and increase attendance, I don't think they could do much more than they have been doing. Their community and sales teams are relentless. They have a cheap season ticket, have had bring a friend for free days, dirt cheap kids tickets, free pint at the game. The playing/coaching staff have been as accessible as is human. They have been at the forefront of increasing interest in playing down south and are now told, up the attendance or risk losing their place. Only thing I can think is to play games on a Sunday, particularly in football season.

If it is about attendance, we are screwed.

toomevara

I tend to agree, I just don't see what else Quins can do...Great stadium, excellent location, keen marketing team, competitive ticket prices and an excellent all round match day experience.

WakeyTyke

I am on rather shaky ground when commenting on attendances but the failure to attract spectators to a London-based RL team has always been a conundrum to me.

Clearly Red Hall must be of a similar opinion and I would go as far as to say they must be a somewhat frustrated and embarrassed that the sport draws so little support in the capital.

I am in no position to criticise the promotion and marketing undertaking by the Quinns and 'Oaks put forward a strong case in their defence but I just cannot believe that there isn't anything that can be done.

The visit of the Crusaders to Wakey was expected to be the lowest crowd of the season so they booked Britain's Got Talent winners Diversity, doubling the expected attendance to be one of the highest of the season.

WakeyTyke

This seems a very interesting development.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/dec/01/championship-one-brewery-field-bridgend

Would certainly seem to indicate that RL is starting to establish a base in south Wales and gives cause for optimism for the games long-term future there, in contrast to the Crusaders debacle.

toomevara

Latest news is that The Crusaders are being taken over by a consortium headed by Wrexham Football club owner Geoff Moss and the club will definitely be based at the Racehorse Ground. The clubs current owner Leighton Samuel decided to unload the club after failing to get the necessary financial support in the south of Wales.

toomevara

From bad to worse;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/celtic_crusaders/8415204.stm

AdeT

toomevara wrote: »

From bad to worse;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/celtic_crusaders/8415204.stm

He's got a job on there (understatement).

I may go across to Wrexham for a game to check out the ground - I REALLY hope it works out there.

toomevara

Two more Aussies heading to North wales, albeit already based in the UK. There's also talk of Ex-FC man Gareth Raynor lining out for the Crusaders.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/celtic_crusaders/8423806.stm