Medium Lift

Zuiderzee

Whenever a wishlist / requirement thread comes up about the Aircorps - the general consensus seems to be a requirement for more medium lift helicopters.

I take it most understand these are the NH-90/EH-101 or similar types.

How many would the defence forces realisticaly need for operations at home - and perhaps overseas deployments?

citizen_p

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Whenever a wishlist / requirement thread comes up about the Aircorps - the general consensus seems to be a requirement for more medium lift helicopters.

I take it most understand these are the NH-90/EH-101 or similar types.

How many would the defence forces realisticaly need for operations at home - and perhaps overseas deployments?

is this brian cowen????


well we didnt have any to spare for chad so...

Zuiderzee

Well, according to the crew at imo this should read ".. requirement for some medium lift helicopters." (the DF don't have any!)

The PWC report & Special Report on the AC & NS recommended:
4 x medium lift & medium range helicopters

They were to allow for the rapid deployment of troops around the State on account of barracks closures and for SAR.

Basically the helicopters would have capablilities between the AW139 & a Chinook (there are lots of types which fall into this category including Super Puma, S-61,NH90 and EH-101)

Another says with three deployed overseas, another three at home for training (aircrew, groundcrew, and army training, plus allow for deep maintenance). So minimum six.

OS119

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Whenever a wishlist / requirement thread comes up about the Aircorps - the general consensus seems to be a requirement for more medium lift helicopters.

I take it most understand these are the NH-90/EH-101 or similar types.

How many would the defence forces realisticaly need for operations at home - and perhaps overseas deployments?

you may as well go for CH-47F Chinooks - they aren't that much more expensive than the others, but they provide a massive increase in capability (weight, space, flexibility, hot 'n high performance) over, for example, an EH101 Merlin.

the numbers are however all to cock. to keep one available 24 hours a day on an overseas op you'll need four airframes, and one available airframe for a battalion sized unit (the ABS report is suggesting moving from lots of higgldy-piggldy deployments to one big one) just isn't enough - 10 airframes will give you three available at any one time, and four more if you plan it in advance. in a ****hole like Chad or Afghanistan, you'll never get 100% availability without pulling them all off the line for a week beforehand.

you'll need another 10 at home to train the aircrew, groundcrew and the units that will be deploying in the future, as well as the rotation of aircraft for deep-servicing and upgrades.

you'll also have to buy another 10 airframes to cope with attrition over the 25/30 year lifespan of the type in service - its cheaper to buy them in one go and update them as time goes on than to hit the credit card each time one flies into the ground.

diverdriver

Interesting figures OS119. In other words, it'll never happen. I seem to remember the white paper said that the AC would not be deployed overseas and there is little or no requirement for troop transport within the country.

So it's AW139s or nothing, just to provide training with helicopters for troops and moving ministers.

In effect there is no requirement for medium helicopters and never will be. Merely a fig leaf of a service.

As for attrition replacements? Well in 40 years of service the Air Corps I think lost one Alouette, even that was non fatal. The manufacturer supposedly estimated that in that time the Air Corps should have lost about 30, I think that was the figure. You can look at that two ways, one the Air Corps is quite good, which is true to be fair. But the more likely reason is that the Alouettes in general were operated in a relatively benign barely operational environment. SAR aside of course. Minimal night flying, little low level, few austere sites, no overseas deployment etc etc. No wonder they lasted well.

It's just as well though. I don't think the Air Corps would be able to cope with losing a helicopter every couple of years with or without a crew.

OS119

they way the current Irish Body politic (and that includes a good proportion of the DF) looks at defence then yeah, any coherant MH cabability is pipedream stuff.

if, however, a coherant defence and foreign policy strategy was brought about then no, its not pipedream stuff.

the Sikorsky bid to the UK MOD would of cost €620m (ish) for sixty (60) UH-60L's including aircrew conversion training and a spares tail. 30 CH-47F's over a 4 year period - 20 airframes in 2 years, then 5 airframes (attrition replacements going into storage) a year for two years - would probably cost a similar amount.

you might be on the US's 'happy list' for such an order, it keeps the production line open for a few years, so you might well get some additional help within the NATO PfP scheme.

and for a nation state, €150 a year for four years to massively increase the operational effectiveness of its defence forces is small beer.

Zuiderzee

EH 101 seems to have tail rotor issues. A lot of crashes have been put down to this.

NH 90 ? Any comments?

OS119

Zuiderzee wrote: »

EH 101 seems to have tail rotor issues. A lot of crashes have been put down to this.

NH 90 ? Any comments?

i've heard that the aussies aren't wildly happy with theirs - i think thats a spares/supplier support issue rather than an airframe issue.

personally i don't see the point of Merlin, it takes up almost the same deck footprint as CH-47 (22m as opposed to 30m), costs about the same, yet carries nothing like the weight - half in fact. for a hypothetical Irish buy, none of the potential Mediums stack up against the CH-47 - quite simply because the cost of those competitors is way more than half that of a CH-47, so its not as if you're getting the same all up capacity just spread over twice as many airframes, so i don't see the cost/benefit calculation being won by a smaller helicopter.