What is the constitution?

simplistic

Now lets stick to facts and evidence here not your personal opinions if that is possible.

The constitution is a piece of paper. Fact

Is the constitution a contract? And if so I cant remember signing it.
If my granddad builds a house am I contractually bound to live under its roof?

So the only fact here is that it is a piece of paper that I have not signed nor Im assuming has anybody else. So why do you think it applies to you?

dlofnep

It's the moral and faw-binding foundation of the country, with which states our rights as people of the Island and the fabric which our politicians must stick to to ensure our rights as citizens are protected. You don't need to sign a constitution - We're lucky we have one. Not all countries do

Jo King

simplistic wrote: »

Now lets stick to facts and evidence here not your personal opinions if that is possible.

The constitution is a piece of paper. Fact

Is the constitution a contract? And if so I cant remember signing it.
If my granddad builds a house am I contractually bound to live under its roof?

So the only fact here is that it is a piece of paper that I have not signed nor Im assuming has anybody else. So why do you think it applies to you?

What if you had signed it? How would the contract be enforceable?

simplistic

dlofnep wrote: »

It's the moral and faw-binding foundation of the country, with which states our rights as people of the Island and the fabric which our politicians must stick to to ensure our rights as citizens are protected. You don't need to sign a constitution - We're lucky we have one. Not all countries do

So its now its a piece of paper that produces emotional responses.

simplistic

Jo King wrote: »

What if you had signed it? How would the contract be enforceable?

I think the word "enforceable" gives that away.

_JOE_

simplistic wrote: »

I think the word "enforceable" gives that away.

Please do elaborate?

dazman2250

I would say that the constitution is binding social contract that you have implicitly consented to by entry (through birth or otherwise) into the state.

Dante09

simplistic wrote: »

Now lets stick to facts and evidence here not your personal opinions if that is possible.

The constitution is a piece of paper. Fact

Is the constitution a contract? And if so I cant remember signing it.
If my granddad builds a house am I contractually bound to live under its roof?

So the only fact here is that it is a piece of paper that I have not signed nor Im assuming has anybody else. So why do you think it applies to you?

First of all, what kind of clown are you?
Whoever said that citizens are contractually bound by it?
You're right in establishing the fact that its a piece of paper but here are some more facts for you:
1) It hosts inter alia all of our most fundamental rights.
2) ALL of the laws in this country are based in one way or another on provisions of the constitution and those laws must abide by what is contained in it as otherwise they will be struck out by the courts. Would you like to sign up to legislation too before it can apply to you?
3) The democratic nature of the political system of this country is based on what is contained in the constitution and our forefathers are the ones who elected De Valera et al in the knowledge that a new constitution was on the cards so in effect by descent your family members would have participated in a process which lead to the constitutions enactment so yes impilicitly you have "signed" (for lack of better word) up to it.
I could go on and on but this is an idiotic thread and an idiotic question and im a wee bit drunk and just generally couldnt be arsed.
Unless of course you have an inspiring proposal for a better alternative on which to base the laws etc of this country?
Roll on leonard cohen tomorrow night! yey!:cool:

DoireNod

I'm not particularly well-versed in the practises or philosophy of Law, so I won't pretend to be. To put it crudely, my understanding is that it's all made up, so fundamentally, it carries with it no real meaning. What happens when all copies of the constitution are destroyed and the notion of said constitution is forever erased from thought. Does it exist?

Laws, constitutions, rights, nationhood and all that stuff. Everything in this world, to a greater or lesser degree, is something we give a meaning to. We ascribe tags to things and give them a place in the concept that we call society, but do they really mean anything? They're just ideas.

People generally don't have much of a clue about Law and all that craic either, so when the book is thrown, people accept it without question. That's something which annoys me and it's why I try to alleviate my own ignorance.

Perhaps this should be in the Philosophy section? :eek:

Dante09

DoireNod wrote: »

I'm not particularly well-versed in the practises or philosophy of Law, so I won't pretend to be. To put it crudely, my understanding is that it's all made up, so fundamentally, it carries with it no real meaning. What happens when all copies of the constitution are destroyed and the notion of said constitution is forever erased from thought. Does it exist?

Laws, constitutions, rights, nationhood and all that stuff. Everything in this world, to a greater or lesser degree, is something we give a meaning to. We ascribe tags to things and give them a place in the concept that we call society, but do they really mean anything? They're just ideas.

People generally don't have much of a clue about Law and all that craic either, so when the book is thrown, people accept it without question. That's something which annoys me and it's why I try to alleviate my own ignorance.

Perhaps this should be in the Philosophy section? :eek:

Good post. I certainly agree with the latter comment.
On a practical level though, laws and the concept of society abiding by laws have existed as long as civilization itself, so I really dont think that there's an alternative worthy of note.

Tom Young

I'm inclined to close this thread ....

dlofnep

simplistic wrote: »

So its now its a piece of paper that produces emotional responses.

Eh, no.

simplistic

_JOE_ wrote: »

Please do elaborate?

Sorry, I mean the people that signed it would enforce it.

simplistic

dazman2250 wrote: »

I would say that the constitution is binding social contract that you have implicitly consented to by entry (through birth or otherwise) into the state.

Definition= A social contract is an implicit agreement among people that results in the organization of society; individual surrenders liberty in return for protection. So I have entered into this contract when I was born?


Definition= Implicit agreement is Implied or understood though not directly expressed

It is my understanding that a valid contract must have :
An intention to create legal relations
Consensus ad idem (meeting of the minds including full disclosure)
Contractual capacity of both parties
Valuable consideration
Binding Signatures of both parties.

So its not a valid contract.Fact

simplistic

Dante09 wrote: »

First of all, what kind of clown are you?
Whoever said that citizens are contractually bound by it?
You're right in establishing the fact that its a piece of paper but here are some more facts for you:
1) It hosts inter alia all of our most fundamental rights.
2) ALL of the laws in this country are based in one way or another on provisions of the constitution and those laws must abide by what is contained in it as otherwise they will be struck out by the courts. Would you like to sign up to legislation too before it can apply to you?
3) The democratic nature of the political system of this country is based on what is contained in the constitution and our forefathers are the ones who elected De Valera et al in the knowledge that a new constitution was on the cards so in effect by descent your family members would have participated in a process which lead to the constitutions enactment so yes impilicitly you have "signed" (for lack of better word) up to it.
I could go on and on but this is an idiotic thread and an idiotic question and im a wee bit drunk and just generally couldnt be arsed.
Unless of course you have an inspiring proposal for a better alternative on which to base the laws etc of this country?
Roll on leonard cohen tomorrow night! yey!:cool:

I didnt ask for an emotional opinion I asked for facts.

simplistic

DoireNod wrote: »

I'm not particularly well-versed in the practises or philosophy of Law, so I won't pretend to be. To put it crudely, my understanding is that it's all made up, so fundamentally, it carries with it no real meaning. What happens when all copies of the constitution are destroyed and the notion of said constitution is forever erased from thought. Does it exist?

Laws, constitutions, rights, nationhood and all that stuff. Everything in this world, to a greater or lesser degree, is something we give a meaning to. We ascribe tags to things and give them a place in the concept that we call society, but do they really mean anything? They're just ideas.

People generally don't have much of a clue about Law and all that craic either, so when the book is thrown, people accept it without question. That's something which annoys me and it's why I try to alleviate my own ignorance.

Perhaps this should be in the Philosophy section? :eek:

I agree with you...and we have this illusion of democracy that is supposedly consensual. But as soon as we revoke consent and say: No thanks Id prefer to keep my wage, violence will be initiated against me.

So you have these idiots that cling to a piece of paper and claim rights and hope this entity called the state will protect them, when in fact it slowly devours them through its monopoly of violence.

simplistic

Dante09 wrote: »

Good post. I certainly agree with the latter comment.
On a practical level though, laws and the concept of society abiding by laws have existed as long as civilization itself, so I really dont think that there's an alternative worthy of note.

But if there was would you listen to it?

Robbo

simplistic wrote: »

Definition= A social contract is an implicit agreement among people that results in the organization of society; individual surrenders liberty in return for protection. So I have entered into this contract when I was born?


Definition= Implicit agreement is Implied or understood though not directly expressed

It is my understanding that a valid contract must have :
An intention to create legal relations
Consensus ad idem (meeting of the minds including full disclosure)
Contractual capacity of both parties
Valuable consideration
Binding Signatures of both parties.

So its not a valid contract.Fact

I didn't sign anything when I bought a newspaper in my local shop yesterday, can you advise me on how to have the contract rescinded? Moreover, I was hungover at the time and may have lacked capacity to contract...

Why do I feel this is going to turn into one of those "freeman" threads where with a basis of linguistic pedantry and a semi-autistic interpretation of legislation, we'll reach the stage where someone puts their fingers in their ears and chants "la la la, no laws can apply to me if I can't hear them"?

Our man in Havana

Do you have an Irish passport? If so you are signed up to the constitution.

drkpower

Bond-007 wrote: »

Do you have an Irish passport? If so you are signed up to the constitution.

How so?

Jo King

simplistic wrote: »

It is my understanding that a valid contract must have :
An intention to create legal relations
Consensus ad idem (meeting of the minds including full disclosure)
Contractual capacity of both parties
Valuable consideration
Binding Signatures of both parties.

So its not a valid contract.Fact

A contract cannot be signed by anybody. A contract is a metaphysical object.

I do not recall that when I was born that a document beginning with the words:-

"this agreement between the party of the First Part as yet unnamed hereinafter referred to as "the baby" and the parties of the second part hereinafter hereinafter referred to as "the parents"

was put under my nose by the midwife along with a pen and a recommendation that I seek independent legal advice given that I would be signing away naming rights and that the choice of my housing diet and schooling into the future were also being signed away.

walrusgumble

simplistic wrote: »

Now lets stick to facts and evidence here not your personal opinions if that is possible.

The constitution is a piece of paper. Fact

Is the constitution a contract? And if so I cant remember signing it.
If my granddad builds a house am I contractually bound to live under its roof?

So the only fact here is that it is a piece of paper that I have not signed nor Im assuming has anybody else. So why do you think it applies to you?

didn't the people of ireland "sign" this piece of paper during a referendum/plebiste in the 1930's?

would the fact (assuming) one recongnises the institutions and participates in these institutions (court and oireachtas) which came from the constitution be an indication that a majority of people today recongise this piece of paper?

Tom Young

Sorry guys. I am closing this. It's nonsense.