An Bord Snip Nua recommendations on Defence, Crazy or Correct?

Morpheus

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0716/defencesnip.html

The report recommends that numbers in the Defence Forces be cut by 500 from 10,500.

This should occur through natural wastage and the non-filling of non-essential vacancies.

It also says that the Reserve Defence Force, formerly known as the FCA, be reduced by two-thirds.
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It also recommends that Ireland ends its peacekeeping in Chad in a timely manner.

Minister for Defence Willie O'Dea has already suggested that Ireland's participation might not extend beyond next March.

The report further recommends the closure of Cathal Brugha Barracks in Rathmines in Dublin.

That would leave only one barracks in the capital, which is McKee Barracks near the Phoenix Park.

A few decades ago there were five barracks in Dublin.

It calls for the disposal of property that is not fully and economically utilised by the defence sector.

The report says that the full economic cost should be charged out for helping gardaí and for running the Ministerial Air Transport Service, which operates the Government jet.

Extend Naval replacement programme -
bit crazy in my opinion because extending shelf life of existing fleet will result in higher maintenance costs and reduced patrols while ships are laid up.

Remove MATS and certain ATCP such as cash transits -
Does this mean allowing private sector armed units protect cash transits?

Reduce RDF by two thirds
Remember white paper recommended force of 7000, current real strength is closer to 4000.

Close Equestrian Centre -
Meh.. i like horses!

closure of Cathal Brugha Barracks in Rathmines
Would everything FIT in McKee???!

End Peacekeeping mission in Chad
What do you think!?

prinz

The report says that the full economic cost should be charged out for helping gardaí and for running the Ministerial Air Transport Service, which operates the Government jet.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? You got one department billing the other

Might as well scrap the whole lot the rate they're going.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Morphéus wrote: »

Remove MATS and certain ATCP such as cash transits -
Does this mean allowing private sector armed units protect cash transits?

Lads thread VERY carefully discussing this one!.

.

oncevotedff

Morphéus wrote: »

Remove MATS and certain ATCP such as cash transits -
Does this mean allowing private sector armed units protect cash transits?

No and the DF has wanted to do this for years.

Morphéus wrote: »

Reduce RDF by two thirds
Remember white paper recommended force of 7000, current real strength is closer to 4000.?

Raelistically many, many RDF people are not up to the task anymore.

Morphéus wrote: »

Close Equestrian Centre -
Meh.. i like horses!.?

So do I but it isn't the military's job to keep them.

Morphéus wrote: »

closure of Cathal Brugha Barracks in Rathmines
Would everything FIT in McKee???!!.?

There's a big world outside Dublin. It'll all fit in the Curragh.

Morphéus wrote: »

End Peacekeeping mission in Chad
What do you think!?

Does the benefit justify the cost? If not leave it to the Africans.

There's lots more they could have done.

Do all Officer's need Third level degrees at public expense?

Do we need Ministerial jets?

Does the DF need so many senior officers?

Should the DF still be issuing Demob suits in this day and age?

Could civilian doctors be contracted to provide medical services rather than taking on expensive and pensionable doctors into the DF?

I suppose the phrase I'd use is despondent.

I feel there's no use or need for me to return to my RDF unit in September.

I suppose it's not Govt's job to provide social outlets or leadership training.

I am extremely disappointed.

minidazzler

Morphéus wrote: »

Extend Naval replacement programme -
bit crazy in my opinion because extending shelf life of existing fleet will result in higher maintenance costs and reduced patrols while ships are laid up.

Remove MATS and certain ATCP such as cash transits -
Does this mean allowing private sector armed units protect cash transits?

Reduce RDF by two thirds
Remember white paper recommended force of 7000, current real strength is closer to 4000.

Close Equestrian Centre -
Meh.. i like horses!

closure of Cathal Brugha Barracks in Rathmines
Would everything FIT in McKee???!

End Peacekeeping mission in Chad
What do you think!?

1. We NEED new ships that's a fact.

2. It would be risky to have armed security around, so I say no to this.

3. Do so, but pick and choose carefully, bring in a compulsory standard test that you are required to pass to stay in. (Fitness anyone) Also, stop renting huts in back arse towns.

4. Horse out the Horsey school, it's no longer needed, the only reason we had it was for the olympics when to be a show jumping jockey you had to be an Officer of the Armed forces, this is no longer the case. Get rid of em.

5. I know nothing about CBB, but in reality, I would like to see 4 DFTC type places in the country. Rather than lots of small barracks around the country. But it should definitely not be the first to go. Kilkenny, Clonmel, etc should all be shut before CBB.

6. ALOT of money was invested into Chad, and now it is costing less, so keep it up for at least 3 more years then have a review.

segaBOY

Reducing the RDF by 2/3s could be a very good thing-get rid of all the diehards trying to keep it as an old boys club and have a more streamlined efficient organisation.

arybvtcw0eolkf

segaBOY wrote: »

Reducing the RDF by 2/3s could be a very good thing-get rid of all the diehards trying to keep it as an old boys club and have a more streamlined efficient organisation.

Lump that in with the EQ school and we're go tp go.

.

Manic Moran

Nothing wrong with having horses around for training.

At the NTC a couple of years ago, they dragged out the regimental ceremonial horse unit and conducted an honest-to-God cavalry charge against a very surprised BlueFor unit. Confused the hell out of them, there was no noise or radar signature to give warning, they ran riot in the Blue base. Also had a bunch of soldiers and airmen undergoing riding training during our mobilisation as it's the best way of getting around some of the provinces in Afghanistan.

But I agree with the rest. When equipment is old, it's old. Replace it, don't try being penny-wise and pound foolish.

No and the DF has wanted to do this for years.

DF might, but I'm not convinced it's going to save the government any money. The services will generally still need to be obtained, be it from the State or private contracting.

Closing Cathal Brugha strikes me as very odd, unless they're going to purchase a fair bit of land in suburbia to make a new base.

NTM

sickpuppy32

prinz wrote: »

What the hell is that supposed to mean? You got one department billing the other

Might as well scrap the whole lot the rate they're going.

it might stop the politicians using the PDF like their own personel speedy transport company especially if the bills can be accessed by the media

Zuiderzee

With the whole 'war on drugs' business, with Ireland supposedly a major transhipment point for narcotics - why is there a plan to cut back new vessels for NS?

sickpuppy32

i'd imagine thats where the Eu steps in as part of a european wide border protection/ anti drugs navy. I think eurocorp already have vessels between spain and africa doing something like that

Zuiderzee

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

i'd imagine thats where the Eu steps in as part of a european wide border protection/ anti drugs navy. I think eurocorp already have vessels between spain and africa doing something like that

Eurocorp??

Morpheus

Typical, let the other coutries fill the gap we should be filling ourselves... sure were in a recession... its not as if they are.... oh they are too? ... oh dear, well a new lick of paint on the ould pea cocks and we'll be right as rain for another 30 years.

We can always buy second hand...
I hear the former Tamil Tigers navy are selling off some nearly new boats, one careful owner...

sickpuppy32

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Eurocorp??

kinda quasi european army, they were in charge of IFOR the peace keeping group in bosnia

concussion

UNPROFOR handed over to NATO led IFOR which was mandated for 1 year and became SFOR. Are you thinking of EUFOR, which succeeded SFOR?

MM: you have the best stories, don't ever leave!

As for the DF: get rid of Equitation, ensure full renumeration from the banks for CIT, impose much tighter contols on MATS (although figures I posted before showed it's not abused as much as some believe), possesion of an honours degree to be a requirement for receiving a cadetship. As for the proposed 500 man reduction; implement the PWC 2 bde structure and presto, you have the required establishment to run ops instead of having three understrength ones.

Cutting the RDF by 2/3 means a red. from 7,500 to 2,500: 4,500 attended camp last year so you're looking at a 50% cut of effective numbers. Subunits are a joke when it comes to strength vs. establishment so integrate each RIB as a company in its respective PDF Bn, each RAR as a Bty in an FAR and so on for sqn/coy sized CSS units .

give the NS their bloody ships!!!!!!! Idiots.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

oncevotedff wrote: »

Raelistically many, many RDF people are not up to the task anymore.

Same can be said for the PDF

I believe the DF should make entry into the RDF a lot stricter... I am not sure if it is the fault of the NCO's or Officers, but on several occasions I have seen complete idiots with live ammo, comming extremely close to shooting others due to their complete incompetence.

Why are these idiots allowed entry in the first place?

As for the navy, it's best to purchase (anything) new within a certain period of time, to keep old ships would cost more in the long run than to buy new ones.

marco murphy

Expect more of these recommendations after Lisbon (i.e. the decisions likely to annoy people will come after the persuading for a yes vote)

BigDuffman

Rebecca Disgusting Female wrote: »

I believe the DF should make entry into the RDF a lot stricter... I am not sure if it is the fault of the NCO's or Officers, but on several occasions I have seen complete idiots with live ammo, coming extremely close to shooting others due to their complete incompetence.

Why are these idiots allowed entry in the first place?

Hear, Hear! I couldn't agree more. For some reason when recruiting they seem to feel obliged to take in the biggest muppets known to man-kind because the recruiters feel they cant say no. Most of the time these fools if they make it to camp they f**K off as soon as they get back after realizing "De guns and uniform an all are gay and they shout at ya an all".

But then there is the pure incapable numpty that hangs around forever never getting the hint. Wasting everyone else time and resources.

Not talking anything too stringent, but brief interview. Physical assessment should include, exclusion of anyone that is obese or other wise unfit to engage in military activities.

IT and ARP every year with a chance to repeat if failed first time round. Should cut the numbers down nicely.

And Coy's should also reclaim all uniform and equipment so it can be put back into circulation. My Coy recently did a mass reclamation / discharge of ineffectives. It worked wonders!

oncevotedff

Manic Moran wrote: »

Closing Cathal Brugha strikes me as very odd, unless they're going to purchase a fair bit of land in suburbia to make a new base.

NTM

They were and maybe still are building a new AHQ building in the Curragh. Move the Brugha lads to McKee and sell up.

Bet they sell it at a knock down price to a FF supporting developer. That never happened before when they closed Clancy Bks.:D

oncevotedff

Rebecca Disgusting Female wrote: »

Same can be said for the PDF .

No it can't. The vast majority of PDF are young, fit and well up to the job.

cork1

concussion wrote: »

Cutting the RDF by 2/3 means a red. from 7,500 to 2,500: 4,500 attended camp last year so you're looking at a 50% cut of effective numbers

alot of that 4,500 are ineffective! they only turn up if theyre gonna get paid.

concussion

cork1 wrote: »

alot of that 4,500 are ineffective! they only turn up if theyre gonna get paid.

Those who didn't attend the minimum req last year did not qualify for grat and were posted noneffective. But yes, your point stands, to a certain degree. Of those who only turn up for money, the majority can still do the job. I completely agree that there is a sizable minority who are utterly useless though. One thing to bear in mind, there are always security and other duties to be done on camp, I prefer that some useless people turn up so they can free up the dedicated ones for training.

clumo

these cuts do not sound healthy to me at all. a country needs its defense forces, reserve or not. irelnad cannot be hoping to rely on its E.U and U.N allies if they get in trouble. i beleive that this sends out a bad signal about the country.
closing the barracks?!?! where will everyone go?? will they all lose their place in the PDF?
cutting the RDF may be a good idea but not by such a drastic number.
like mentioned earlyer i know a few people who only attend when promised pay. thats not good enough as payed traning is usually onlt twice a year.
this is only my opinion but i believe that these cuts would be a V.bad idea.
Besides the RDF cant be costing that much as its practically voulentry work.

OS119

clumo wrote: »

these cuts do not sound healthy to me at all. a country needs its defense forces, reserve or not. irelnad cannot be hoping to rely on its E.U and U.N allies if they get in trouble. i beleive that this sends out a bad signal about the country.
closing the barracks?!?! where will everyone go?? will they all lose their place in the PDF?
cutting the RDF may be a good idea but not by such a drastic number.
like mentioned earlyer i know a few people who only attend when promised pay. thats not good enough as payed traning is usually onlt twice a year.
this is only my opinion but i believe that these cuts would be a V.bad idea.
Besides the RDF cant be costing that much as its practically voulentry work.

the nasty frank answer is that Ireland depends on its NATO and EU friends entirely for any actual defensive capability, the Irish military could be disbanded completely and it wouldn't make much difference to whichever body came rushing to Irelands aid.

Horse school: if you want to join the army, do so, if you want to play with horses, join a fcuking gymkana.

CIT: an 'empire' with no other function that to make the army look indespensible - no other western european state uses the Army to escort securicor, get the Garda to do it, thats what they're fcuking there for.

MATS and AGS air support: you wanna fly somewhere, pay for it (and be able to justify the full costs when they go on the public record) - like all the nations of Europe, and Albania, Botswana and Timbukto... Policemen (and civvy contractors) can fly helicopters in every other country in the world so why not AGS - or do they still write in crayon and lick windows?

Cutting Suburban Barracks and slashing the RDF: good, being a soldier means being in the field - get them out into the country (where its cheap) where they can assist what remains of the RDF - the ones without man-boobs and a note from matron - to become sufficient trained and fit to do the job they signed up for. then amend the wording of the Defence Forces Act to allow RDF personel to serve overseas if they wish and where there is a job they can do.

Don't upgrade the INS: good, i quite like Cod and Haddock, and we're running out, so we'll have yours. cheers.

Close the Chad mission and 'consolidate' future missions: the only thing with the slightest hope of bringing the Irish military towards any kind of readiness as understood by the rest of the world (except of course those CIT 'thunder-runs' into Baghdad, err... i mean Cork) is difficult overseas ops. brilliant idea... On the other hand the current set up with formed units in Chad, Kosovo and individuals spread over half-a-hundred NATO/EU/UN missions gives the Irish Army lots of 'experience' but not any of operating a full-strength battlegroup in a potentially hostile environment (don't tell the crusties or politicians, but thats why states send soldiers to such missions and not Nuns and Social Workers...). commit to a single mission and get the best all-round training for war you can out of it.

ex_infantry man

Morphéus wrote: »

Typical, let the other coutries fill the gap we should be filling ourselves... sure were in a recession... its not as if they are.... oh they are too? ... oh dear, well a new lick of paint on the ould pea cocks and we'll be right as rain for another 30 years.

We can always buy second hand...
I hear the former Tamil Tigers navy are selling off some nearly new boats, one careful owner...

we did buy second hand!!! those peacocks were bought from the brits they were used for drug interdiction in hong kong harbour by the royal navy

ex_infantry man

OS119 wrote: »

the nasty frank answer is that Ireland depends on its NATO and EU friends entirely for any actual defensive capability, the Irish military could be disbanded completely and it wouldn't make much difference to whichever body came rushing to Irelands aid.


CIT: an 'empire' with no other function that to make the army look indespensible - no other western european state uses the Army to escort securicor, get the Garda to do it, thats what they're fcuking there for.

OS119 wrote: »

the army are actually not there to protect the money but are there as ATCP the money in those vans are safer and more secure than brick houses and insured!!!! all vans have internal and external cctv systems and access is control by combined weight and finger tip scanners

OS119

ex_infantry man wrote: »

OS119 wrote: »

the nasty frank answer is that Ireland depends on its NATO and EU friends entirely for any actual defensive capability, the Irish military could be disbanded completely and it wouldn't make much difference to whichever body came rushing to Irelands aid.


CIT: an 'empire' with no other function that to make the army look indespensible - no other western european state uses the Army to escort securicor, get the Garda to do it, thats what they're fcuking there for.

OS119 wrote: »

the army are actually not there to protect the money but are there as ATCP the money in those vans are safer and more secure than brick houses and insured!!!! all vans have internal and external cctv systems and access is control by combined weight and finger tip scanners

so enlighten me, what 'aid' does does half a dozen armed soldiers provide to these cash vans apart from the security that they obviously don't need?

squeegee merchants?

breakdown assistance?

some company incase the driver gets lonely?

sickpuppy32

must admit i always felt a bit of national pride watching the soldiers of the equestrian school perform, the British and French armies are extremely jealous of this by the way.

Zuiderzee

OS119 wrote: »

MATS and AGS air support: Policemen (and civvy contractors) can fly helicopters in every other country in the world so why not AGS - or do they still write in crayon and lick windows?

Been to Templemore then I see.

OS119 wrote: »

Don't upgrade the INS: good, i quite like Cod and Haddock, and we're running out, so we'll have yours. cheers.

Disagree -still, got a grin out of the posting

Zuiderzee

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

must admit i always felt a bit of national pride watching the soldiers of the equestrian school perform, the British and French armies are extremely jealous of this by the way.

Me too until they switched out the field cap for those stupid fecking scooter safety helmets - does not look right now

OS119

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

must admit i always felt a bit of national pride watching the soldiers of the equestrian school perform, the British and French armies are extremely jealous of this by the way.

aye right, i bet the household cavalry are bitter as fcuk that they've got MLRS, AH-64D's, AS90, enough Chinooks to move an airborne battlegroup in one go, RQ-9 Predator and Typhoons in their pocket while those lucky Irish bastards get to canter about in jodphers....

/deep, dripping sarcasm, off/

Hard Larry

OS119 wrote: »

aye right, i bet the household cavalry are bitter as fcuk that they've got MLRS, AH-64D's, AS90, enough Chinooks to move an airborne battlegroup in one go, RQ-9 Predator and Typhoons in their pocket while those lucky Irish bastards get to canter about in jodphers....

/deep, dripping sarcasm, off/

Why would a Show Jumping School want any of that sh1t?

Poccington

oncevotedff wrote: »

They were and maybe still are building a new AHQ building in the Curragh. Move the Brugha lads to McKee and sell up.

Bet they sell it at a knock down price to a FF supporting developer. That never happened before when they closed Clancy Bks.:D

If you can find space for all the Units in the Brugha along with all their stores etc. to move over to McKee I'll buy you a new hat.

Poccington

Hard Larry wrote: »

Why would a Show Jumping School want any of that sh1t?

Word. :pac:

The point about Chad is pointless anyway, most of the talk in work has been that it was ending at the end of next year so it's hardly a mission that's gonna be around for ages like Kosovo has been.

OS119

Hard Larry wrote: »

Why would a Show Jumping School want any of that sh1t?

perhaps they might think its appropriate to concentrate on the things that an Army needs before subsidising the racing industry - which needs subsidising like Simon Cowell needs help boosting his ego....

i use the Household Cavalry as an example because they seem to be able to do the shiney horsey, shiney helmet-**** while also doing the 'deploying halfway round the world and successfully mounting armoured operations that kill lots of enemies' stuff.

ah well, i suppose one out of two isn't that bad...

Hard Larry

OS119 wrote: »

perhaps they might think its appropriate to concentrate on the things that an Army needs before subsidising the racing industry - which needs subsidising like Simon Cowell needs help boosting his ego....

i use the Household Cavalry as an example because they seem to be able to do the shiney horsey, shiney helmet-**** while also doing the 'deploying halfway round the world and successfully mounting armoured operations that kill lots of enemies' stuff.

ah well, i suppose one out of two isn't that bad...

The Racing Industry has done more for Ireland than any other industry (with the exception of agriculture I presume) so why not put some national pride into it. Makes sense to me.
But IMHO I'll be glad to see the back of the Equitation School I've had the misfortune of serving in the barracks were the welfare of the horses are put before the welfare of the troops.

Ireland is not a warmongering nation. It is a bit of an oddity considering we produce some of the finest warriors in history (something which our neighbours over the Irish Sea know all to well and exploit to their own use)

Trying to compare the Irish Defence Forces to the British Army is laughable, we're not in the same league on the larger scale, Ireland does not and will never have the budget to compare to any of the big players in International affairs...we don't even have the population to sustain a large force so talking about 'mounting armoured operations' makes me chuckle.

Its only a matter of time before Irish troops will be involved in a high profile peace enforcement mission and I can gaurantee you they won't have Ah-64's or MRLS and they definetly won't be mounting Armoured Operations. It'll be bog-standard soldiering and our sons and daughters will pay in blood for the greed and corruption of big players.

arybvtcw0eolkf

OS119 wrote: »

aye right, i bet the household cavalry are bitter as fcuk that they've got MLRS, AH-64D's, AS90, enough Chinooks to move an airborne battlegroup in one go, RQ-9 Predator and Typhoons in their pocket while those lucky Irish bastards get to canter about in jodphers....

/deep, dripping sarcasm, off/

LOL, reminds me of a visit to the school last summer.

I had a friend from the Israeli Defence Forces visiting so I brought them up to the school for a look about.

The guys up there made 'em feel very welcome and during part of the 'tour' my friend was asked "Do you have horses in the IDF?"..

"No" said my friend "We charge at the enemy in tanks these days".

goldie fish

OS119 wrote: »

perhaps they might think its appropriate to concentrate on the things that an Army needs before subsidising the racing industry - which needs subsidising like Simon Cowell needs help boosting his ego....

i use the Household Cavalry as an example because they seem to be able to do the shiney horsey, shiney helmet-**** while also doing the 'deploying halfway round the world and successfully mounting armoured operations that kill lots of enemies' stuff.

ah well, i suppose one out of two isn't that bad...

Of course another big difference(apart from the fact the Horsey School has no military function whatsoever) is that it is an officer only affair. NCOs and Privates only get to lead, feed, shovel manure and clean tack. None of this sitting on the horse carry on for the ordinary "soldier". Thats only for officers. Know your place. Surely the last relic in Ireland of the Class system.

slapper

with out reading 3 pages
stop government use of the jets and choppers other than the top 3
cut the government wages to a cap of 50 k a year and thats for the president
normal TD should only get 35 -40 k
and a cap on the expences
when it comes to the navel ships it will cost lives we need new ships more ships and faster ships
its a fecking joke about reducuing the rdf
and wat makes it worse is about 3 years ago the was an offer made on a rdf hall and part of the deal was to rehome the unit it was turned down now the installation is up for sale and we are homeless as a unit

Burnt

Discussion of cuts in the defense forces by an board snip nua on
RTE 1 now.

BigDuffman

Very well handled by the DF spokesperson. I thought the DF came off in a far better light than I would of expected from a slate show like this.

neilled

BigDuffman wrote: »

Very well handled by the DF spokesperson. I thought the DF came off in a far better light than I would of expected from a slate show like this.

What programme was it so I can link the podcast (if it exists) latter?

BigDuffman

Think it was News; Today with Myles Dungan. Should be on podcast.

neilled

BigDuffman wrote: »

Think it was News; Today with Myles Dungan. Should be on podcast.

It'll appear here then so http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_patkenny.xml