Bord Snip - More Education Cuts

Trotter

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0716/Volume%201.pdf

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0716/Volume%202%20FINAL.pdf

Page 54 of the report appendices to page 75 has the really shocking stuff in detail.

I'm speechless. Society is gone down the tubes in Ireland. Education has the same value as any other way of saving money.

I don't honestly care if they make teachers work an extra hour a day, or if I pay a bit more in tax once everyone does the same.

I can't take the idea of packing 30+ children into a classroom, taking away the NEPS service by not recruiting staff to it, plonking those kids into the group, taking away their SNA and saying, ah it'll be grand.. we're broke you know.

How many NEPS assessments would you get if you downgrade your ministerial S Class to a Corolla?

I'm sickened.

freire

Absolutely and utterly devoid of foresight.

Quite frightening in many, many ways. I could trot out all the cliches, consigning children to scrap heaps and all that, but what's the point?

Suffice to say, what a bunch of merchant class bumblers.

spurious

There are ways of saving large amounts of money by restructuring the entire system. Take the religious-owned (but State-funded) schools into State ownership. Instead of having three second-level schools (brothers or priests, convent and VEC) in small towns all over the country have one. Stop all the duplication of services. Stop having three principals where you could have one, three sets of sub-standard facilities when one really good one could be had.

Oh noes, don't upset the church!
Oh noes, don't make my child have to mix with the ones in the Tech.!
Oh noes, a level playing field???!
Oh noes, don't upset the Indo readers!
Oh noes, don't make my child be in the same class as the ones who need help with their reading (which of course now they won't get)!
Oh noes, let's not have any imagination whatsoever!

Let's decimate the schools and education in general, the one way out of all this mess and then in twenty years we can blame all the wildly overpaid* teachers for making an arse of the schools.

*Teaching, easy job, anyone could do it, 3 months holidays, finished at 3 everyday, 60 grand a year. Gospel. I read it on the Interweb.

implausible

Trotter wrote: »

.

I can't take the idea of packing 30+ children into a classroom, taking away the NEPS service by not recruiting staff to it, plonking those kids into the group, taking away their SNA and saying, ah it'll be grand.. we're broke you know.

How many NEPS assessments would you get if you downgrade your ministerial S Class to a Corolla?

The NEPS service is woefully underfunded as it is! I'm fecking disgusted. Add to that the serious reduction in SNAs and the kids haven't got a chance.

The impact of the last set of cutbacks is only going to be felt in September, and now this.

gaeilgegrinds

So rather than leave at half 5 now I'll be leaving at half 6 and still getting nowhere. I'm disgusted.

seaniebaby86

spurious wrote: »

in twenty years we can blame all the wildly overpaid* teachers for making an arse of the schools.

*Teaching, easy job, anyone could do it, 3 months holidays, finished at 3 everyday, 60 grand a year. Gospel. I read it on the Interweb.

HA! That is ridiculous. If its such a cushy number, why aren't you doing it??
Maybe because you wouldn't know how to cope with 38 eleven and twelve year olds in one room, generally weak, massive bullying problems, 3 dyslexic, one diabetic, one deaf, one suicidal (This is what I had this year).
Or maybe it is because you don't have a good enough standard of Irish or Maths, or maybe you are not patient enough, or maybe you don't fancy a job where you invariably have to take your work home with you to correct copies or plan lessons, or stay after work to train the football, hurling, camogie and basketball teams.
Maybe you don't fancy teaching 38 kids tin whistle. Maybe you don't want parents nagging you all the time about their Johnny or Mary's relationships with other children.
Maybe you actually realise that, for the work primary teachers do, the pay is actually not very good at all!

I teach because I want to make a difference. I want the next generation to have a top quality education because, when I am too old, THEY will be running this country.

People like you really annoy me.

If the government goes with the recommendations of An Bord Snip and make further Education cuts, it will further demonstrate their lack of emphasis on the future of Irish children.
Education would have the largest reduction of staff under the Snip recommendations. Primary schools will lose 3500 teachers and other staff.
10% cut in basic funding.
More burden on already cash strapped parents.

It is a disgrace.

If it is implemented, do not be surprised or outraged at industrial action from teachers.

spurious

I'm well aware of what is involved in teaching and let's not get into a 'who teaches the toughest classes' game - I was quoting what the internet and other armchair 'experts' say about it.

seaniebaby86

spurious wrote: »

I'm well aware of what is involved in teaching and let's not get into a 'who teaches the toughest classes' game - I was quoting what the internet and other armchair 'experts' say about it.

Yes, but you were quoting what these "experts" said because it backed up your belief. Otherwise you would not have quoted them. Or you would at least have found a quote from the other side to balance it out. Every time teaching is in the news, people like your good self come out of the woodwork telling us how handy our jobs are.

Rosita

seaniebaby86 wrote: »

Yes, but you were quoting what these "experts" said because it backed up your belief. Otherwise you would not have quoted them. Or you would at least have found a quote from the other side to balance it out. Every time teaching is in the news, people like your good self come out of the woodwork telling us how handy our jobs are.

I can't believe you have having a pop at that poster as the comment about teaching being a handy job was so clearly ironic.

Trotter

seaniebaby86 wrote: »

HA! That is ridiculous. If its such a cushy number, why aren't you doing it??....

Easy tiger.. Spurious is doing it. The 'cushy number' bit was a bit of repetition of what you generally see around boards and around Irish "society".. tongue in cheek if you will It was sarcasm!!


Oh and I say "society" because I don't believe we have a society anymore.

seaniebaby86

Rosita wrote: »

I can't believe you have having a pop at that poster as the comment about teaching being a handy job was so clearly ironic.

Well if it was ironic, I apologise for having a pop.

seaniebaby86

Trotter wrote: »

Easy tiger.. Spurious is doing it. The 'cushy number' bit was a bit of repetition of what you generally see around boards and around Irish "society".. tongue in cheek if you will It was sarcasm!!


Oh and I say "society" because I don't believe we have a society anymore.

Fair enough. I'm new to this whole thing, didn't realise Spurious was a teacher. Funny thing was I actually agreed with most of his points.
It was just that bit at the end that annoyed me, and I didn't realise it was sarcasm.

E.T.

What stresses me a lot is how many people actually DO believe B.S. like Spurious' ironic post. Nobody gives a damn about education cuts because at the end of the day the argument will always get muddied with the rubbish about cushy jobs, pensions, short days etc. The only people who see the extra work done at home, extra hours spent in school, planning done over holidays etc are teachers and their families. At this stage I'm tempted to stop reading the papers.

seaniebaby86

Dear Spurious,
I apologise for my earlier outburst. I did not realise you were being tongue in cheek.
Clearly we're on the same side here, both of us annoyed with the cuts already made and these newly proposed cuts,
All the best,
Seaniebaby86

Trotter

seaniebaby86 wrote: »

Fair enough. I'm new to this whole thing, didn't realise Spurious was a teacher. Funny thing was I actually agreed with most of his points.
It was just that bit at the end that annoyed me, and I didn't realise it was sarcasm.

Hehe.. Don't worry.. It requires thousands of hours of mindless gawking at boards.ie before you'll detect the mood of the posts.

What Spurious said though is pretty much what you'll read in other forums here, and they mean it.

I've noticed that of a teacher says anything in defence of the children they teach, its dismissed completely as a cover.

We're living in weird weird times. Its like watching all of the progress in education made since the foundation of the state being unwound in front of our faces with it being applauded by the general population because they hate teachers.

spurious

No worries at all seaniebaby, as others have said, we hear this sort of tripe all the time, it's easy to believe someone would think it.

While I was being slightly over the top in my 'take the schools off the church' suggestion, at the same time, it is one way a great deal of money could be saved while improving facilities. It will eventually happen and an opportunity has been missed to completely transform Irish education, its facilities and structures from the 'make do' approach we have had for years and make it world class.

It just goes to show the 'experts' who made the suggestions of snippage don't really have a clue.

I must go now and count my 60k and drink campari on the lawn*.
*actually I'm being boiled out of it in 30 degrees plus in Krakow, where I'm doing an intensive Polish course, since we have so many Polish kids now. I think it is a punishment on Poland for its devilishly difficult to learn language.

E.T.

So true Trotter. And the amount of people with the "anyone could teach" argument wrecks my head. I've posted "why didn't you go into teaching" a few times and received replies like 'I was too good at school/too intelligent/didn't suit me' etc etc. My friend had a great response to the whingers - we all filled in the same CAO form!

Nead21

im still quite new to teaching and the "cushy" number argument is already wrecking my head!! i worked in the private sector for 3 years before i returned to college to do a HDip. when i told people that i worked with i was going back to train to be a teacher, i was asked "why on earth would i do such a job? its not financially worthwhile, and oh i would never that job, and deal with all the horrible kids". 2 years on these same people now begrudge my now handy number and my apparently endless holidays, and the compulsory pension that im paying through the nose for!! it would seem that their memories are very short.

another friend criticised my holidays saying that its ridiculous that teachers are paid to do nothing during the school holidays and she was totally against this.....she took unkindly to me saying while on the dole she was basically doing the same thing!

as its the school holidays...im also on the dole as i dont have a contract, and by the looks to things i'll be exceptionally lucky to get job for this coming september.

Damian_Gordon

I think the best thing to do is develop a rebuttal document to it, so let's look for any factually incorrect statements in it, or ommisions, or errors, lets get them documented here and submitted to the media. I'm a lecturer in DIT, these are the issues I have with the document regarding third-level issues;

---

D.1 Staffing efficiencies across the third level sector

“For example, in some cases a lecturer may have no further work from March until September because of student work placements.”

This is untrue, it is extremely unlikely that a lecturer will only be teaching on the single year of a programme where work placement occurs, typically lecturers teach on a range programmes and on a range of years, some that have work placement, others that don’t, so it is never the case that once students go on work placement the lecturer will have no other teaching. Additionally students on work placement require supervision by lecturers and placement visits to ensure the students are getting on. Finally the student should be producing weekly reports that are read by their supervisors.

“There is no contractual requirement to be on campus other than for delivering lectures”

This is factually incorrect, lecturers are required to be present for student meetings, staff meetings, student supervision, all corrections and assessments have to be done on the premises of the institute by contract, etc.

“there is no system of accountability for the performance of non-lecturing duties”

This is factually incorrect, a range of non-lecturing duties, e.g. student supervision have the standard accountability processes. Students have the right to complain and appeal. There is a whole QA/E process in DIT.


D.2 Rationalisation of third level institutions

“2. Amalgamation of the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies (DIAS) with UCD or TCD”

I find it distressing that the group suggest only UCD and TCD, and make no rationale as to why there is no mention of DCU or DIT.

---

Any other takers ???

icanchange49

Damian_Gordon wrote: »

I think the best thing to do is develop a rebuttal document to it, so let's look for any factually incorrect statements in it, or ommisions, or errors, lets get them documented here and submitted to the media. I'm a lecturer in DIT, these are the issues I have with the document regarding third-level issues;

---

D.1 Staffing efficiencies across the third level sector

“For example, in some cases a lecturer may have no further work from March until September because of student work placements.”

This is utterly untrue, it is extremely unlikely that a lecturer will only be teaching on the single year of a programme where work placement occurs, typically lecturers teach on a range programmes and on a range of years, some that have work placement, others that don’t, so it is never the case that once students go on work placement the lecturer will have no other teaching. Additionally students on work placement require supervision by lecturers and placement visits to ensure the students are getting on. Finally the student should be producing weekly reports that are read by their supervisors.

“There is no contractual requirement to be on campus other than for delivering lectures”

This is factually incorrect, lecturers are required to be present for student meetings, staff meetings, student supervision, all corrections and assessments have to be done on the premises of the institute by contract, etc.

“there is no system of accountability for the performance of non-lecturing duties”

This is factually incorrect, a range of non-lecturing duties, e.g. student supervision have the standard accountability processes. Students have the right to complain and appeal. There is a whole QA/E process in DIT.


D.2 Rationalisation of third level institutions

“2. Amalgamation of the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies (DIAS) with UCD or TCD”

I find it distressing that the group suggest only UCD and TCD, and make no rationale as to why there is no mention of DCU or DIT.

---

Any other takers ???

I'm an IOT lecturer as well and confirm\support all above. I have noticed the work pace picking up significantly over the last number of years. Most lecturers also do course co-ordination etc and a lot of other goodwill work that is not contractually covered. Calling the job just a teaching job is bollix. I think its time for us all to participate in union work to protect our students and our profession.
LET THE BANKERS AND THEIR POLITICAL CRONIES CLEAN UP THEIR OWN MESS!

gaeilgegrinds

I'm really raging. I know I'm oversimplifying things here but essentially during the boom years it was banks and builders that were laughing. Yes teachers and nurses and gardai and the like got a pay increase but it was needed with the way prices were going. And now...who get the rap on the knuckles, teachers, gardai and nurses/doctors etc...but not only us, it's students in schools and particularly in my opinion the marginalised ones, old people in nursing homes, those in hospitals and Joe Soap who no longer has a Garda station near him and therefore a few local thugs are terrorising him. Seriously, what teacher, nurse or Garda and in fairness most doctors I know, made millions? Wasn't us that caused this mess, yes I understand a small cut is needed but a much bigger one needs to come from those who caused this.

Damian_Gordon

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

I'm really raging. I know I'm oversimplifying things here but essentially during the boom years it was banks and builders that were laughing. Yes teachers and nurses and gardai and the like got a pay increase but it was needed with the way prices were going. And now...who get the rap on the knuckles, teachers, gardai and nurses/doctors etc...but not only us, it's students in schools and particularly in my opinion the marginalised ones, old people in nursing homes, those in hospitals and Joe Soap who no longer has a Garda station near him and therefore a few local thugs are terrorising him. Seriously, what teacher, nurse or Garda and in fairness most doctors I know, made millions? Wasn't us that caused this mess, yes I understand a small cut is needed but a much bigger one needs to come from those who caused this.

Hear, hear, you are absolutely correct. Where I got really upset reading the report was when I got as far as "B.4 Reduction in the number of Special Needs Assistants", talk about picking on the most vunerable members of society, while Ministers still travel around in helicopters and Mercedes, it's just wrong. I think Ghandi said "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members," I think we are failing this test.

gaeilgegrinds

I'm sick to the teeth of it. We've all seen it, a young first year, most likely from a difficult background, not always but usually. Mother doing her best, Dad a lot of the time not on the scene for a variety of reasons. Older brother was in trouble and she comes in explaining he finds schools difficult.

Option A-get him help, few after school clubs, possible SNA, help with reading, build his confidence, get him involved in sport. He could well go on to do a course after school and get himself a job.

Option B- no help, no SNA, no learning support, no resource, nothing for him after school, starts causing trouble, breaks his mother's heart and ruins his younger siblings chances. Jail.

I know there are some not involved in teaching who'll say I'm totally going ott with this but I'm not, I see this everyday and I know it's true, leave the vulnerable alone and they will usually be lead down the wrong path.

Trotter

Listening to the panel on Vincent Browne tonight talking about the 16:1 pupil teacher ratio, and how we're pulling the wool over people's eyes basically by saying it was closer to 30:1. Well I have over 30 in my class so I'd love to know who's meant to be teaching the other 14 . These panels of 'experts' mouth off about ratios when they clearly haven't a clue. Its easier to slate teachers than to do some research on the true class teacher ratio.

freire

Yeah, I saw it.

Was thinking pretty much the exact same thing too. ''Come to my school, count the kids in the classroom.''

Fecking teachers. Sure ya couldn't be up to them. Not to be trusted.*






*This is an ironic statement. But not if George Hook says it.

gaeilgegrinds

I've loads of friends Primary teachers and I'm in secondary, we've one or two classes with smallish numbers but overall they're the average. As for Primary, my aunt has 33 First class in a prefab next year, that's just cruel.

Nead21

was watching Vincent Browne last night too, and i was so sickened when George Hook said about the "managerial" positions in schools. it is so obvious these commentators like himself and that other pleb, Alan Cantwell, havent a notion about what is actually involved in organising and running a school. how are they allowed to talk on such issues?? i wouldnt dare comment on the training and organisation of a rugby team!!....stick to what you know George!!! :mad:

Figerty

Alan Cantwell,, who the f**k is Alan Cantwell, a jumped up Clare FM dj. Ignore him.

However I am also a lecture in an IOT, and I can tell you for a fact that most of us are hardworking and do well above the call of duty in work. But lets call a spade a spade, we have plenty of Lecturers who do the bare 16/18 hours of class contact and nothing else. They don't interact with anyone. In the door for class and out the door as fast as possible, usually to run a private practice as an Auchtioneer, Accountant or some form of consultant.

Lets not kid ourselves there are plenty of people not doing anything except handing out thirty year old out of date notes. I welcome the 'Bord Snip' blunt analysis, I am getting sick of carrying other peoples work and trying to hide their tradyness from the students.

Nead21 wrote: »

was watching Vincent Browne last night too, and i was so sickened when George Hook said about the "managerial" positions in schools. it is so obvious these commentators like himself and that other pleb, Alan Cantwell, havent a notion about what is actually involved in organising and running a school. how are they allowed to talk on such issues?? i wouldnt dare comment on the training and organisation of a rugby team!!....stick to what you know George!!! :mad:

Powerhouse

Figerty wrote: »

Lets not kid ourselves there are plenty of people not doing anything except handing out thirty year old out of date notes. I welcome the 'Bord Snip' blunt analysis, I am getting sick of carrying other peoples work and trying to hide their tradyness from the students.

You are making an assumption that there will be a reasonable and fair distinction made between such people and others when the axe is being wielded.

atgate

Well I'm a Lecturer at an IOT and I'm certainly on campus for a lot more then my contracted hours per week. Between co-ordination duties, committees, assessments, general (and by that I mean mind-numbingly boring ) meetings I'm in most of the week (and a fair few evenings).

We do get a research day and what do I do with it? I research. It's part of my contract to keep abreast of what's happening in my field right now. I'm currently doing lesson plans and new lectures for a redesigned course (mind you that has something to do with the lousy weather). I'm no martyr but I do my job at least to the same degree as any of my friends in the private sector.

Most of the lecturers I know do likewise, there are slackers or people who have found themselves with little to do (not always their fault), but you get this in every sector.

I'm getting a right pain in the a*se being told that I'm a waster who is draining society of it's dwindling funds. To be honest it's making me want to go in, do the minimum hours, go home and garden! If I'm going to be called a overpaid slacker then I might as well get the benefits of it. Of course I'm not going to do this, I'd get bored within two weeks and I'd be on boards.ie ranting....oh hang on

ulysses32

The McCarthy report is exactly that, a report! It is not law. It is not a budget. it is a list of suggested savings that look good on paper. they are intended to quell the public thirst for public and civil service blood.

These recommendations will probably happen in some diluted form or other but I can't see blanket implementation. Can you?

Any number shaving will happen through natural wastage ( probably with the exception of SNAs- an unfortunate reality). This will create extra pressure on those left behind.

The education sector at first level and second level has been rife wioth retirement over that last few months and it is very likely that numbers are already significantly reduced.

the case for redeployment in education does seem to be becoming more pressing though.

carminaburana

Yet another saving could be made by our wonderful government if they were to postpone the schools' inspections for a while. Do we really need these (frequently recent graduates) to tell us how to do our jobs? Surely Leaving and Junior Cert results should speak for themselves?

carminaburana

ulysses32

How would postponing inspections save money?

Inspectorate are full-time and salaried regardless.

dg647

I would say there is a fair amount of expenses/mileage etc involved in these insepctions