Threat of rail lines being axed

Judgement Day

The 'in depth' report from An Bord Snip recommends that Bus Eireann be sold off and the WRC discontinued (not sure if this means not opening Ennis/Athenry or line north of Athenry), closure of Manulla Junction/Ballina line, Limerick/Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction/Rosslare lines - music to CIE's ears. :mad:

This info gleaned from the Appendices section of the report at www.rte.ie

Ham'nd'egger

Judgement Day wrote: »

The 'in depth' report from An Bord Snip recommends that Bus Eireann be sold off and the WRC discontinued (not sure if this means not opening Ennis/Athenry or line north of Athenry), closure of Manulla Junction/Ballina line, Limerick/Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction/Rosslare lines - music to CIE's ears. :mad:

This info gleaned from the Appendices section of the report at www.rte.ie

From the report.....

"The Group is concerned by the overall upward trend in the level of public service payments per passenger journey although it notes that Irish Rail has achieved a small reduction (Irish Rail still has the highest PSO payment per passenger journey of the three CIÉ transport companies). This indicates poor service delivery. Accordingly, the Group recommends a scheme of targeted
reductions to services across all three CIÉ companies, focused in the first instance on off-peak, low patronage services.

As part of this undertaking, the Department of Transport and CIÉ should jointly review the application of PSO payments to low patronage transport routes and explore how such payments can be best targeted/applied to provide the most economical service levels that meet customer needs and
demand patterns. For example, lightly used rail lines should be closed and replacement bus services provided. It is more than likely that more regular and reliable bus services could be provided on such corridors at less cost to the Exchequer. Among the most lightly used rail lines that should be
examined in this light include:

- Limerick Junction to Rosslare
- Limerick to Ballybrophy;
- Manulla Junction to Ballina.

In addition, the Group recommends that there should be no further development of the Western Rail Corridor.

Overall, the Group targets a significant reduction of costs at CIÉ which would lead to savings of €55m in the PSO payment."

Nowhere there does it actually say that any line is to close yet while it also answers your query on the WRC extension.

Judgement Day

Hamndegger wrote: »

From the report.....

"The Group is concerned by the overall upward trend in the level of public service payments per passenger journey although it notes that Irish Rail has achieved a small reduction (Irish Rail still has the highest PSO payment per passenger journey of the three CIÉ transport companies). This indicates poor service delivery. Accordingly, the Group recommends a scheme of targeted
reductions to services across all three CIÉ companies, focused in the first instance on off-peak, low patronage services.

As part of this undertaking, the Department of Transport and CIÉ should jointly review the application of PSO payments to low patronage transport routes and explore how such payments can be best targeted/applied to provide the most economical service levels that meet customer needs and
demand patterns. For example, lightly used rail lines should be closed and replacement bus services provided. It is more than likely that more regular and reliable bus services could be provided on such corridors at less cost to the Exchequer. Among the most lightly used rail lines that should be
examined in this light include:

- Limerick Junction to Rosslare
- Limerick to Ballybrophy;
- Manulla Junction to Ballina.

In addition, the Group recommends that there should be no further development of the Western Rail Corridor.

Overall, the Group targets a significant reduction of costs at CIÉ which would lead to savings of €55m in the PSO payment."

Nowhere there does it actually say that any line is to close yet while it also answers your query on the WRC extension.

Yes, as it happens I did read the report that's why I had to look in the appendices to find any information about actual line closures! May be our interpretation of the English langauge is different but I clearly read the above as the escape clause that that joke Dempsey and his lackey Lynch will be looking for when the closures are announced - it was Bord Snip's recommendation is how it will be put across. Incidentally, why would they proceed with Ennis/Athenry reopening when it will clearly fall into the category of lightly used line - even if successful!

Zoney

Judgement Day wrote: »

Incidentally, why would they proceed with Ennis/Athenry reopening when it will clearly fall into the category of lightly used line - even if successful!

Because even it is likely to look like rush hour traffic compared to those three lines. Nevertheless - the Nenagh line could do not too badly but it would need investment first in the line, then in providing service - unfortunately not going to happen Same goes for Limk Jnct-Waterford - could better connect Clonmel to Dublin whatever about the rest of it, but it would need money. OK Ennis-Athenry was actually closed, but it does nevertheless have more potential than those lines. Ennis is significantly larger than Clonmel and quite close relatively speaking to Limk/Galway (and those two cities have commerce between them) and it's far larger than Nenagh.

The best we can hope for is a stay of execution for the lines until better times, or at the least, a proper mothballing (i.e keep the lines in shape but don't run services, or at the very least keep the alignments protected for future reopening).

KC61

I do think that the title of the thread should be changed to Threat of Rail Services to be Axed - as we all know nothing is certain once politicians are involved!!!

loyatemu

Its only the Expressway service they propose selling off btw.

Judgement Day

loyatemu wrote: »

Its only the Expressway service they propose selling off btw.

'only' - take away Expressway and it doesn't leave much does it? Anyway there are so many hackers sub-contracted to BE Expressway and 'quasi' legal inter-city bus operators that the value of Expressway must be quite small. Do Bus Eireann own Busaras as it would be a worthwhile asset?

ardmacha

explore how such payments can be best targeted/applied to provide the most economical service levels that meet customer needs and

This might mean that a payment might be made for a train that arrived in Limerick/Waterford at 8:45 which was of use to commuters, but not one arriving at 11:45.

Also I saw a TV programme once where a small German line had been given over to local operator who ran the line a bit like a bus, with the driver selling the tickets and so on. Waterford - Limerick - Galway could be given over to operator with much lower marginal costs than CIE.

Judgement Day

Here is a comment hot from the Irish Railway News boards - someone who clearly has his head screwed on properly.

'Given that there is a lot of activity from Ballina in terms of freight, I am shocked to think that it's on the cull list.

I'm not a bit surprised. IE have zero interest in freight in the short, medium or long term despite all public assurances to the contrary. I'd be astonished if McCarthy dreamt up that list all by himself (I doubt he even knew there was a Ballina branch). Much more likely that he was sent in a particular direction in the same way that recent media articles re Limerick Jct - Waterford were little short of a begging note for the line to be closed. '

Phototoxin

must be something to do with the lack of connectedness outside dublin, the price to customers and the fact that 40 years ago we had more railway stations.
I'm in south oxfordshire in the uk. Bus ever 15 minutes to town MINIMUM. I can get from there to pretty much anywhere for quite reasonable prices. Where I used to live it took €15 euro return to get on a BUS to dublin. Joke and a half. Of course during the boom all the money wasn't being invested. I'm just waiting for the revolution/civil war/anarchy to begin

Victor

Judgement Day wrote: »

Do Bus Eireann own Busaras as it would be a worthwhile asset?

CIÉ would.

Yoda

ardmacha wrote: »

Also I saw a TV programme once where a small German line had been given over to local operator who ran the line a bit like a bus, with the driver selling the tickets and so on. Waterford - Limerick - Galway could be given over to operator with much lower marginal costs than CIE.

They've got little trains like that in Wales too (though I'm not sure who owns them). Once upon a time there was talk of linking Westport/Castlebar/Ballina with a car that would connect via Manulla when other trains weren't running.

mikemac

I hope Limerick to Ballybrophy doesn't get "snippped"
Entirley selfish reasons I suppose, just a regular user of the line

For a long, long time, that line ran a service from Nenagh (biggest town on the line) to Limerick and could get you there by 11:30 and back to Nenagh by 15:30.
Yeah great if you want some lunch and shopping in Limerick but not much good for commuters. So if Irish rail management saw low usage I hope they figured out why!

So they introduced a commuter service. And Limerick train station is pretty central imo though not everyone will agree. But it's a good service

The line needs investment, not cutbacks, the low speed restriction doesn't help.
As I said, entirely selfish reasons from my side but it could be a success.
Roscrea and Nenagh are large towns and a train route from Limerick to Dublin is an asset.
Excellent bus service though as well

Judgement Day

mikemac wrote: »

I hope Limerick to Ballybrophy doesn't get "snippped"
Entirley selfish reasons I suppose, just a regular user of the line

For a long, long time, that line ran a service from Nenagh (biggest town on the line) to Limerick and could get you there by 11:30 and back to Nenagh by 15:30.
Yeah great if you want some lunch and shopping in Limerick but not much good for commuters. So if Irish rail management saw low usage I hope they figured out why!

So they introduced a commuter service. And Limerick train station is pretty central imo though not everyone will agree. But it's a good service

The line needs investment, not cutbacks, the low speed restriction doesn't help.
As I said, entirely selfish reasons from my side but it could be a success.
Roscrea and Nenagh are large towns and a train route from Limerick to Dublin is an asset.
Excellent bus service though as well

Couldn't agree more, of course Limerick/Ballybrophy shouldn't be closed but as presently 'operated' by CIE/IE the line is a dead duck. As part of Transport 21 a direct curve facing Dublin should have been constructed at Ballybrophy with direct Dublin/Limerick inter-city services using the branch instead of having to change in to awful Commuter railcars at Ballybrophy. It's not too late but there is no pressure for it coming from the citizens of Roscrea, Nenagh or their politicians but that's probably not surprising given that CIE have been running the branch into the ground for decades.

invincibleirish

Privatise rather then close down lines which require excessive subvention. If the private sector can't make a go of them no one can. Focus limited public resources where best results can be provided. And make sure a strong regulator is appointed and given appropriate legislative powers so things like integrated ticketing can be implemented across public and private operations.

They can start by seeing if there is any interest by private operators in taking over the up for the axe rural transport schemes.

DWCommuter

Just remember lads that it was a FF lead Government that refused to close 2 of these lines in 2003 after CIE applied for closure orders. It was the same Government that fast forwarded funds to rebuild the bridge in Cahir and it was of course the same Goverment that set up WRC working groups and eventually sanctioned the reopening of the line from Ennis to Athenry. While all of this was going on the 2 lines were open and running trains devoid of any vision or advertising by CIE or funding from the Government.
Now that the money has run out, we realise that nothing changed. A closed line (WRC) got millions upon millions in funding, while open lines got virtually nothing in comparison. That makes real sense, doesn't it?
And bare in mind that all these new stations on the WRC will be state of the art while some very busy stations in the GDA are falling asunder. Just look at the monumental station in Monasterevan and then look at Sallins!
We are right back where we started in 2003.
Thats politics folks!
These lines will close, while many here will post hundreds of times expressing their objections.

Judgement Day

Derek, I don't agree with you about the inevitably of the closure of the aforementioned lines as this pathetic government seems incapable of taking tough decisions. Talk about them, commission reports about them but take action well that is another matter especially since it would be political suicide. Of course Dempsey may well revert to his usual position of saying that the closures are an operational matter for the board of CIE - how that will go down with FF and Green TDs is another matter.

OneArt

Why are they so stupid?

The railways are vital infrastructure. Even if they're not used now, they probably will be in the future. Roads, railways and other forms of infrastructure will still be here and in use in 100 years time. They might as well start digging up less-used roads as well.

I remember I saw a map of Ireland's rail system in 1906: they had trains running everywhere, even Milltonw-Malbay. That place is just a street and a few pubs and they still had a proper link! I went to visit my friend who lived down there a few weeks ago and all I can say is thank Buddha she had a car, otherwise I would've been f***ed for getting there from Limerick. Grr.

This country just seems to go backwards.

Slice

They should end the PSO contracts for domestic flights and withdraw funding for some of the smaller regional airports first given that they benefit fewer people. Did the report make such recommendation?

Zoney

Slice wrote: »

They should end the PSO contracts for domestic flights and withdraw funding for some of the smaller regional airports first given that they benefit fewer people. Did the report make such recommendation?

Certainly it did for the former suggestion, don't know about the latter.

Neworder79

Irish rail rail announced 2 extra services on Westport - Heuston yesterday so I think the Westport line is doing fairly well these days, the new trains are more popular, I had to use the train a lot for work last year and it was busy mid week and standing room only at weekends leaving Heuston. Ballina spur is another story, averages 10 - 30 getting on at Manulla.

One factor here is the bus alternatives. Ballina has a relatively quick and direct service to Dublin via Longford. But try and get a bus from Westport/Castlebar and your looking at a 5+ hour tour of Connaught.

One of the new services is an earlybird service which could serve to replace the Aer Arann PSO if ended in 2010.

markpb

Judgement Day wrote: »

Do Bus Eireann own Busaras as it would be a worthwhile asset?

The DSFA own the building and lease the ground floor to Bus Eireann.

IIMII

OneArt wrote: »

I remember I saw a map of Ireland's rail system in 1906: they had trains running everywhere, even Milltonw-Malbay.

Roads and journey times by road improved, and railways didn't. Railways do best where you have loads of people struggling to get to a single point (like cities) and where road travel times are bad. Most places you travel to on this island outside of the cities don't have that kind of traffic congestion problem, and many times where there is traffic it is passing-through traffic congestion rather than destination traffic congestion. And bypassess tend to sort the through traffic congestion problems.

It is a pity to see lines go, but there isn't any point in keeping lines open for traffic that might be better served by a couple buses every hour or so in the morning. Of course, I think that every disused railway alignment in the country should be protected by statute in case of future requirements, but that isn't the same as keeping them all open indefinitely just in the off-chance they might be needed again in 2059 or so..

OneArt

IIMII wrote: »

Roads and journey times by road improved, and railways didn't. Railways do best where you have loads of people struggling to get to a single point (like cities) and where road travel times are bad. Most places you travel to on this island outside of the cities don't have that kind of traffic congestion problem, and many times where there is traffic it is passing-through traffic congestion rather than destination traffic congestion. And bypassess tend to sort the through traffic congestion problems.

It is a pity to see lines go, but there isn't any point in keeping lines open for traffic that might be better served by a couple buses every hour or so in the morning. Of course, I think that every disused railway alignment in the country should be protected by statute in case of future requirements, but that isn't the same as keeping them all open indefinitely just in the off-chance they might be needed again in 2059 or so..

That would be forgivable if a "couple buses every hour" was true. But there are two buses. Two per day. ftw

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

Derek, I don't agree with you about the inevitably of the closure of the aforementioned lines as this pathetic government seems incapable of taking tough decisions. Talk about them, commission reports about them but take action well that is another matter especially since it would be political suicide. Of course Dempsey may well revert to his usual position of saying that the closures are an operational matter for the board of CIE - how that will go down with FF and Green TDs is another matter.

When these closures were first proposed by CIE in 2003, the country was awash with money. It was easy for Seamus Brennan to intervene and say no. But things have changed dramatically. Closing at least 2 of these lines will not cause the political fallout one would expect. Thats my prediction anyway. When Im proved right we can both get pissed on the IRRS farewell tour! Some things will never change.

Judgement Day

Derek - I'll be buying the drinks if you're right and then we can throw Demspey and his buddies under the last train.

Poxyshamrock

mikemac wrote: »

I hope Limerick to Ballybrophy doesn't get "snippped"
Entirley selfish reasons I suppose, just a regular user of the line

For a long, long time, that line ran a service from Nenagh (biggest town on the line) to Limerick and could get you there by 11:30 and back to Nenagh by 15:30.
Yeah great if you want some lunch and shopping in Limerick but not much good for commuters. So if Irish rail management saw low usage I hope they figured out why!

So they introduced a commuter service. And Limerick train station is pretty central imo though not everyone will agree. But it's a good service

The line needs investment, not cutbacks, the low speed restriction doesn't help.
As I said, entirely selfish reasons from my side but it could be a success.
Roscrea and Nenagh are large towns and a train route from Limerick to Dublin is an asset.
Excellent bus service though as well

What's that service like?
On average, how many passengers would be on the train that you use?

dermo88

If I was going to choose which to close:

1. Limerick to Ballybrophy via Nenagh. Its too expensive to upgrade now, and for little return on investment. The Bus service on the same route is far more effective.
2. Waterford to Rosslare Harbour.
3. Manulla to Ballina, the bus service from Ballina is also far more effective.
4. Limerick Jctn to Waterford

Or else privatise all four of the above (preferably the lot), and see how they get along. However, the CIE Unions would be in uproar, and frankly speaking, I would give my eye teeth to see a nice Miners style strike between the bearded commie elements in that organisation, and remove them from Irish society like the cancer they are. Its been a LONG time coming.

monument

dermo88 wrote: »

3. Manulla to Ballina, the bus service from Ballina is also far more effective.

Effective, in what way exactly?

dermo88 wrote: »

Or else privatise all four of the above (preferably the lot), and see how they get along....

invincibleirish wrote: »

Privatise rather then close down lines which require excessive subvention. If the private sector can't make a go of them no one can. ....

How exactly do you privatise a branch line which only acts as a feeder to an intercity service?

dermo88

The majority of the passengers from Ballina are travelling to Dublin. Its not as fast as Bus Eireann, and the fares on Bus Eireann are cheaper. It also involves a change.

Now, the Ballina branch was recommended for closure back in the 1971 Mc Kinsey report, but hung on for political reasons. Freight traffic was also reasonably healthy (still is apparently), so it has been retained.

There is a chance of rescuing it, and closing it, frankly would not save that much. The real savings to be made are closing the likes of Rosslare to Waterford and restructuring the timetable to provide a more effective Limerick to Waterford cross country service. The Nenagh branch can hardly be rescued, and it too was recommended for closure back as far as 1957 in the Beddy report.

You privatise the route by having a contractual obligation on it. It becomes a contract between either the state, the local council if they wish to retain it, or Iarnrod Eireann themselves. That way, the operator will seek to operate it in such a way as to maximise profit, and it can be grant aided. It might even cost less than Iarnrod Eireanns operations. The farebox revenue is apportioned. Its easily done. Its done in Sweden, Denmark, Japan - to name a few places.

monument

dermo88 wrote: »

The majority of the passengers from Ballina are travelling to Dublin. Its not as fast as Bus Eireann, and the fares on Bus Eireann are cheaper. It also involves a change.

I use the line, and, to be honest, after using the bus between Ballina and Dublin for the first year or so after moving to Dublin, I can't stand it. I could see a lot of business travels and tourists / weekend trippers to the town agreeing with me. And if there's really a Government aim for less car journeys I can't see many drivers switching to the bus.

The extra services due on the Westport line could also help make the Ballina branch line more popular, given extra flexibility etc.

dermo88 wrote: »

You privatise the route by having a contractual obligation on it. It becomes a contract between either the state, the local council if they wish to retain it, or Iarnrod Eireann themselves. That way, the operator will seek to operate it in such a way as to maximise profit, and it can be grant aided. It might even cost less than Iarnrod Eireanns operations. The farebox revenue is apportioned. Its easily done. Its done in Sweden, Denmark, Japan - to name a few places.

I can see some benefit in privatisation, but on such a small scale such as just the Ballina branch line I just can't really see it working out being cheaper to run than Irish Rail running it.