Age of Marriage

turgon

It appears that in the last 50 years the age of marriage has increased considerably, from about 23/4 to 30 or so.

I was chating with one of my friends mothers about this (:o) and she maintained it was primarily to do with sex. Now that people have sex outside of marriage it is no longer necessary to tie the knot.

Im not fully satisfied by that tbh. That same women has another son who has been in a relationship for 15 years, living together 10, and they are only get married in the next year or two. Why didnt they get married?

I think we live in a society that looks down on early marriage and/or long term relationships before 25/30. I believe this is based on some perverted notions of "freedom," and living your life "to the max," and that somehow being in a marriage/ltr negatively impacts upon this. Thats more a reflection of specific relationships people who profess that have been in, rather than a reflection on marriage itself, imo.

Thoughts?

I think its more to do with career choices. Women have now the choice to focus on careers rather than work in the home. Rising costs in housing, costs of living, and education of children, has required that many people not get married before they have established themselves in the workplace. Its also worth considering that people leave school or university at a later age than previous decades. There is also the splintering of communities whereby people don't meet their partners as easily. Add in the lack of arranged marriages which encouraged younger marriages, then its easy to see its not down to just sex.

I don't really see it being down to sex for the increased age for marriage. I would have married quite young if I had met someone compatible, and secondly if I had the funds to support such a marriage.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

prinz

Interesting points all. I am getting married later this year and am 25 years old. OH is 25 too. tbh here in Ireland I get looked at like I have two heads when I tell people, whereas in Germany where OH is from no one bats an eyelid. Nobody cares over there what age you are/what you want to do. As regards the education argument.. well don't see that at all, as I'm doing a post-grad professional qualification and she's starting a Doctorate in a few months. Hasn't stopped us enjoying a relationship and being married won't change that. And as fair as being single being no longer stigmatised... you should try telling people you're getting married, when their biggest issue is what time to go to coppers at.

turgon

It was prinzes case I was getting at. For example the friends mother in my first post has yet another son who got married 3 weeks ago at the age of 27 and she said people in her workplace thought that was extremely young - an opinion I thought was kind of strange.

It all ties in with this "young and free" mentality that floats about. It a mentality that obviously has it merits. But I think people who really push it are those who have never been in a fully 'proper' and enjoyable relationship. They cant see the good part of being in a relationship - even if its eminently obvious the two in the relationship have extremely similar qualities and interests.

Its probably a bit more extreme in my position (as someone in a long enough stable relationship, Im not getting married!) as I get labeled a "relationship whore" which, given my history, is probably justified. However they are always looking from the outside in, and theres no point explaining to these people whats really going on as they just want to generalize and judge.

/personal issues post

Dades

There isn't really a reason to get married early anymore. So you love someone, you live with them, you're in your 20's... What is a piece of paper going to prove to anyone?

That said I do believe people should get married before having kids (as distinct from getting married because of a kid). If you've decided to make such a commitment as to bring kids into the world you're ready for that bit of paper.

prinz

Dades wrote: »

There isn't really a reason to get married early anymore. So you love someone, you live with them, you're in your 20's... What is a piece of paper going to prove to anyone?

That said I do believe people should get married before having kids (as distinct from getting married because of a kid). If you've decided to make such a commitment as to bring kids into the world you're ready for that bit of paper.

Isn't that a complete contradiction though? What is that same bit of paper going to prove to anyone after you have a kid, that it didn't prove before you had a kid. IMO pledging myself to one person for life, as the basis of starting a new family eventually is a fairly large commitment in it's own right so deserves such a "piece of paper".

daveyboy_1ie

I remember years ago reading an old Guinees book of records saying that Ireland had one of the lowest average age of marriage, this was a 1970's book now, oh how times have changed.

honestly i think there are quite a few reasons for the change in our attitudes, here are just a few:

1. The mother you speak about had a point, in previos generations it was rarely considered to have sex before marriage, so hey presto lots of far to early marriages, not always happy. Also pressure on the couple to get married after relatively brief courtships led to faster marriages. I know people are going to say that marriages after longer courtships are no gaurantee of happiness, but my point is it helps couples know each other so much more.
2. Because of relatively rushed marriages, pushing on fom the first reason, lots of children see marriage as a bad thing either consciosly or sub-consciosuly so they avoid it as they dont want to spoil 'what they have'. I have a best friend who professes this to be the case, she says she will never marry.
3. Cost of marriage, couples saving for years to afford their ideal marriage as its scandalous prices to get married here.
4. Lack of percieved power from church/ society in general to marry.
5. Also, as a bloke who's brother has an American sister in law I can see that we as a society kind of take marriage a little more seriosly than lots of other countries who can have 'quickie' divorces and remarry at will. Even in the UK I have a relation who has been married 3 times and speaks about them as if they wer arrangements. not commiting themselves to long term relationsips.

these are just some of the points, but they add up to people taking longer to marry i think, perhaps I am being naive???

I've always been open to the idea of marriage. The unfortunate part of that though was the lack of meeting someone I wanted to marry. I'm 32 now, and have been single most of that time. I never met anyone that I wanted to spend longer than a few months with. From what I can gather, its not an uncommon perspective.

But, I've since met someone I click with. And I didn't meet her in Ireland, but rather in China. That brings in a whole host of ignorant comments from people who hardly know me or my partner, never mind that I'm 8 years her senior. Its amazing the way that people harp on about progress and how we have become more free, and yet the very same people are so quick to judge you on rather silly grounds. My grandfather married at 42 and married a women roughly 20 years younger than him. Acceptable back then, but not so acceptable now. And yet his case isn't that uncommon, with 3 other relationships in my extended family with similar circumstances.

I'm not going to harp on about marriage. I'm not married yet. I know nothing of marriage except what I've seen from the outside. My reasons for marriage consist of two things. That my partner desires marriage due to her cultural/family background, and secondly I myself feel it provides a better environment in which children can grow up. Provides them with more stability.

Oh, its worth noting that if i intended on living in Ireland or the "West" for the next few years, we probably wouldn't be getting married next year. Its only because we're both happy to live in Thailand that we're considering it. The expenses involved in getting married in the "west" are huge, and the living costs are enormous, tied in with the lack of employment, makes western marriage a difficult proposal. Adds too much stress on the relationship. No new marriage needs that, when you're already seeking to adapt to living with someone, in a new environment.

Dades

prinz wrote: »

Isn't that a complete contradiction though? What is that same bit of paper going to prove to anyone after you have a kid, that it didn't prove before you had a kid.

It clarifies issues regarding guardianship, next-of-kin etc. It's more for the child's sake, than anything else.

prinz wrote: »

IMO pledging myself to one person for life, as the basis of starting a new family eventually is a fairly large commitment in it's own right so deserves such a "piece of paper".

A legal document seems somewhat superfluous to an emotional commitment between two people. Don't get me wrong, I'm married myself, I just don't see the need unless people are about to start a family.

Dades

Dades wrote: »

A legal document seems somewhat superfluous to an emotional commitment between two people. Don't get me wrong, I'm married myself, I just don't see the need unless people are about to start a family.

The need exists where your partner values marriage as more than some piece of paper. After searching for so long, I wouldn't even consider the chance of loosing my partner, simply because I might consider marriage unneeded. Many people view marriage as a necessary step. Its simply selfish to only look at one side of a relationship. My partner due to her upbringing, and cultural background would be shamed by living with someone for a long period of time (assuming forever doesn't last), and secondly having children out of wedlock.

I have learned over the years from living in other countries that the ways that other cultures exist are not necessary wrong. The change from having relationships outside of marriage in the western world is a fairly new concept in the bigger scheme of things. The effects of this change are yet to be fully understood, or whether is a good/bad thing. Simply put, just as everything that has been changed in our culture there are many factors to be considered beyond the obvious.

I, for one, am not so sure western social progress has benefited us all that much. Too many problems have arisen which we have failed to address, and frankly I can't decide if our changes were worth the losses involved.

Joey the lips

Personally speaking I did not marry the o/h till we were 10 years going out. I guarantee you 2 thinngs

1. I always knew I would marry her cause I am mad about her!

2. If someone told me I could not have sex till I was married I would have married her in the biggest dive of a pub.

I believe that many are waiting for 2 reasons

1, The sex

2. The wedding of there dreams!

PS i was finishing a degree in economics when I ot married by night so education was never really effected or an issue!

My partner has rather traditional values... some of which I thought were plain crazy when we first started going out. Nearly all of the women I have slept with, we kissed on the first date, and usually had sex by the second date. I couldn't imagine any other way of seeing someone. Never met anyone who thought different. But. MY partner had different ideas. We didn't kiss during the first three weeks of going out together, and we didn't have sex until we were together just over three months. Thats a rather long time to wait for someone who's used to near instant "gratification". But it worked out really well, tbh. The passion I felt on that first kiss was amazing, and the sex was incomparable to anything I had before. It still is. But more than that, it gave me the chance to treasure her, rather than her absolutely beautiful features...

Sex isn't everything, which is something that modern western society has forgotten. When my friends (many of whom are married) heard of me waiting, they thought i was daft to "waste" time on this girl. They themselves had followed more "traditional" lines of having sex after the third or fourth dates. It has worked for them, but I have to admit that it hasn't worked for me. Previously I got bored being with women that I had sex with too early. I think many men suffer the same issue, as do some of my female friends.

I think western society no longer really places any value on sex. Which is a shame.

The Big Red Button

turgon wrote: »

It appears that in the last 50 years the age of marriage has increased considerably, from about 23/4 to 30 or so.

I was chating with one of my friends mothers about this (:o) and she maintained it was primarily to do with sex. Now that people have sex outside of marriage it is no longer necessary to tie the knot.

Im not fully satisfied by that tbh. That same women has another son who has been in a relationship for 15 years, living together 10, and they are only get married in the next year or two. Why didnt they get married?

I think we live in a society that looks down on early marriage and/or long term relationships before 25/30. I believe this is based on some perverted notions of "freedom," and living your life "to the max," and that somehow being in a marriage/ltr negatively impacts upon this. Thats more a reflection of specific relationships people who profess that have been in, rather than a reflection on marriage itself, imo.

Thoughts?

I think that women in their 20s now are under pressure to simultaneously have high-flying careers, visit each continent several times a year, wear fabulous fabulous clothes, maintain a hectic social life, date several highly eligible men without ever letting it get too serious, and overall just tick all the boxes of a highly fulfilled lifestyle - as you said, living life "to the max".

All of a sudden they hit their early thirties, and these men that they've thus far been able to pick and choose between are getting more scarce. All around them, their friends have moved on to the next stage of "the 21st century lifestyle" - i.e. getting married and having kids. I hate to say this, but I've seen it myself in several instances recently: Women in their 30s are all of a sudden dropping their high standards, and settling for the next semi-alright man that comes their way. Not all women, but it's definitely happening in some cases.

It's a bit sad, but I think women in their 20s are afraid to even consider men that they date as potential lifelong partners, as it's not currently seen as socially acceptable.

Note: As an engaged 23 year old, I am extremely biased :rolleyes: (but also blissfully happy, and ticking all the other boxes for a balanced fulfilled lifestyle "to the max"!!!)

ChocolateSauce

I think there are too many reasons to really pin down, but some that cross my mind are the fact that now it's ok to have sex outside of marriage, contraception is available, we've become highly career-focused, and importantly, a boy of 21 is no longer seen of as a mature man.

ChocolateSauce

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I think there are too many reasons to really pin down, but some that cross my mind are the fact that now it's ok to have sex outside of marriage, contraception is available, we've become highly career-focused, and importantly, a boy of 21 is no longer seen of as a mature man.

I'm curious... since you used the word "boy" do you yourself proscribe to such a viewpoint?

994

Dades wrote: »

It clarifies issues regarding guardianship, next-of-kin etc. It's more for the child's sake, than anything else.

But simple legislative changes allowing someone to designate a non-relative as next of "kin" and granting equal rights to fathers would take care of that.

994

994 wrote: »

But simple legislative changes allowing someone to designate a non-relative as next of "kin" and granting equal rights to fathers would take care of that.

But it wouldn't take care of the common perception by parents of other families towards the status of your child. The point is that Marriage creates an extra layer of stability to children both for their own development, and also for their interactions with other people. From a purely legal point there are many ways to cover the care of children born in relationships.

Dades

Deleted User wrote: »

The need exists where your partner values marriage as more than some piece of paper. After searching for so long, I wouldn't even consider the chance of loosing my partner, simply because I might consider marriage unneeded. Many people view marriage as a necessary step. Its simply selfish to only look at one side of a relationship. My partner due to her upbringing, and cultural background would be shamed by living with someone for a long period of time (assuming forever doesn't last), and secondly having children out of wedlock.

If someone is serious about a partner that decides he/she needs to be married, then of course getting married seems like the right thing to do.

I assumed this discussion was more to do with like-minded couples deciding marriage wasn't necessary till much later, the reasons why, and the perceptions the outside world has of their choice.

994 wrote:

But simple legislative changes allowing someone to designate a non-relative as next of "kin" and granting equal rights to fathers would take care of that.

I'm sure they would but I wouldn't be hanging around waiting for that legislation to claim my rights.

prinz

chatterpillar wrote: »

I think that women in their 20s now are under pressure to simultaneously have high-flying careers, visit each continent several times a year, wear fabulous fabulous clothes, maintain a hectic social life, date several highly eligible men without ever letting it get too serious, and overall just tick all the boxes of a highly fulfilled lifestyle - as you said, living life "to the max".

All of a sudden they hit their early thirties, and these men that they've thus far been able to pick and choose between are getting more scarce. All around them, their friends have moved on to the next stage of "the 21st century lifestyle" - i.e. getting married and having kids. I hate to say this, but I've seen it myself in several instances recently: Women in their 30s are all of a sudden dropping their high standards, and settling for the next semi-alright man that comes their way. Not all women, but it's definitely happening in some cases.

It's a bit sad, but I think women in their 20s are afraid to even consider men that they date as potential lifelong partners, as it's not currently seen as socially acceptable.

This is pretty much spot on. Except I'd add that it's the same for men.

watty

12 is a bit young and 30 a bit old.

Especially for a 1st pregnancy.

Caoimhín

34. No younger, no older.

If i am not married by 34 then I will simply give up. (not like i try too hard anyway)

Caoimhín

watty wrote: »

12 is a bit young and 30 a bit old.

Especially for a 1st pregnancy.

30 too old for a first pregnancy?

Are you living in the Middle ages?

watty

At that age the Hospital will call you an Elderly Primagravida. Actually at 29 they will.

It's a medical fact, that while 30 is not old for being pregnant, it's old for a first one.

I didn't say "too old", I said "a bit old".

watty

watty wrote: »

At that age the Hospital will call you an Elderly Primagravida. Actually at 29 they will.

It's a medical fact, that while 30 is not old for being pregnant, it's old for a first one.

I didn't say "too old", I said "a bit old".

Which is fair enough. Having a child at 30 does increase the chances of complications occurring, however its still a common enough practice considering changing lifestyles.

ChocolateSauce

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm curious... since you used the word "boy" do you yourself proscribe to such a viewpoint?

It would depend entirely on the individual, though generally yes, myself probably included. Of course what exactly a man is is subjective.

prinz

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I think there are too many reasons to really pin down, but some that cross my mind are the fact that now it's ok to have sex outside of marriage, contraception is available, we've become highly career-focused, and importantly, a boy of 21 is no longer seen of as a mature man.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

It would depend entirely on the individual, though generally yes, myself probably included. Of course what exactly a man is is subjective.

Just on this was watching 'Interview with a Vampire' the other night and there's the same issue near the beginning, when Brad Pitt's characted mentions the same, as being 24 years of age and 'already a man and owner of a large estate or plantation or something along those lines'. See also William Pitt the Younger, who at 24 became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. When exactly a boy becomes a man has been fluid through the years. As time goes on it has seemed to extend into latter years.

ChocolateSauce

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

It would depend entirely on the individual, though generally yes, myself probably included. Of course what exactly a man is is subjective.

Well, how are you going to judge strangers on whether they're a man or a boy? You're not going to know the trials they might have experienced, and the challenges they may have passed. I was rather immature until I left the comfort of my country, and it was only when I lived abroad completely cut off did I grow up. But you wouldn't be able to tell that by looking at me.

SeekUp

This is interesting -- While the average age of marriage is rising, most of my friends are getting married in their mid-20s. I wonder if there's a difference in age between big cities and smaller areas . . . I lived in a big city where no one batted an eyelid at being single, but can't imagine it being the same in the suburbs or in small towns (at least, not being single by choice).

watty wrote: »

At that age the Hospital will call you an Elderly Primagravida. Actually at 29 they will.

It's a medical fact, that while 30 is not old for being pregnant, it's old for a first one.

I didn't say "too old", I said "a bit old".

This is more the case from my personal observations -- that even though my friends are getting married in their mid-20s, they're going ahead and finishing school, traveling together, getting settled and generally enjoying time with each other, thereby waiting years after marriage to have children.

ChocolateSauce

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, how are you going to judge strangers on whether they're a man or a boy? You're not going to know the trials they might have experienced, and the challenges they may have passed. I was rather immature until I left the comfort of my country, and it was only when I lived abroad completely cut off did I grow up. But you wouldn't be able to tell that by looking at me.

I reserve judgment until such a time as I have evidence enough to make one. It isn't something I think about when I meet people however, it's more instinctive really.