Some food for thought for prospective Primary Teachers

Rosita

School receives 1,200 applications for one temporary position

By Katherine Donnelly
Thursday July 16 2009

A PRIMARY school received 1,200 applications for a single temporary job in the starkest example yet of the scale of the unemployment crisis looming for young teachers.

The unprecedented interest in the position at St Olaf's National School in Balally, Dundrum, Co Dublin, comes as teaching graduates face a jobs famine, arising from bigger classes, a cap on teacher numbers, and other education cuts.

Primary schools will lose about 1,000 teaching posts in September, with a similar number of positions also disappearing at second level.

About 800 of the applications for the job at St Olaf's were from new graduates whose employment prospects have been shattered by the cutbacks.

Gerry Murphy, principal of the 415-pupil school, recalled the unprecedented response when he posted an advertisement for the year-long job -- to replace a staff member on career break -- in May.

"Within an hour or two we had a couple of dozen email applications. Within two days, it got to the stage where the postman literally couldn't carry the volume of mail to the school. He would come in and say: 'I have as much of that again'. We had over 800 postal applications."

Mr Murphy said that the most applications he would have received before in response to a single advertisement would have been about 200 to 300, and that was for a number of permanent jobs.

He said the applications, many of whom were Irish students who did their teacher training in the UK, were of a very high standard.

"If I had had five jobs, I would have filled them easily," he said.

This year, more than 2,000 primary teacher graduates have to compete for about 800 natural vacancies arising from teacher retirements. As well as about 2,000 graduates emerging from Irish colleges this year, several hundred more have trained in the UK. There are also about 1,000 HDip graduates entering a similar situation in second-level schools.

A trend towards smaller classes and other classroom concessions, such as English language support for pupils from immigrant backgrounds, saw an expansion in teacher training places in recent years, with employment growth of 6,500 in primary schools since 2002. But this has been halted by the cuts programme.

Fine Gael TD Sean Barrett, who highlighted the case, said Fianna Fail policy was creating a huge pool of teachers who had no prospect of employment, while at the same time forcing schoolchildren into class sizes which were simply too big.

Priority

"Neither Minister O'Keeffe nor his government have any plans to address the huge number of qualified primary teachers who cannot get a job," he said.

Irish National Teachers Organisation (INTO) general secretary John Carr accused the Government of being duplicitous. "On the one hand we hear that maintaining employment is a top priority. At the same time, government policy condemns hundreds more to the dole queue."

He said there was still an issue with unqualified people working in primary schools.

"With record numbers of fully qualified graduate teachers available for work no unqualified person should be allowed to take the place of a teacher," he added.

- Katherine Donnelly

smcgiff

My wife, a recent graduate, has secured a year long post in our local school for next year. She feels like she's won the lottery.

Rebel_City

That's great! Out of interest, would you be in the Dublin region or a different part of the country?

I'm qualifying next Aug. Hoping things will have mellowed out by then! Was talking to a recently retired principal and they said that next year things should be better, and also said that males may have a slight advantage as there are so few male primary school teachers. Whether that's true or not, who knows!

satcie101

I am seriously considering doing a postgrad in primary school teaching in the UK in 2010, but the plan is to stay in the UK and work. Are the prospects for employment in teaching in the UK better. Would appreciate reply's from someone in the know.

smcgiff

Rebel,

Job based in Limerick.

Yip males will get places a lot quicker. This is down to a few reasons in my opinion.

There's so few of the darlings out there schools like to employ males if they don't have any/many in their schools to give a masculine presence.

They don't go out on maternity leave - less disruption.

They tend to be more ambitious and go on to become principal and then be in a position to hire. Although female principal's will more readily employ male teachers too.

Anecdotally, one of the first people to get a job after graduation in my wife's year was a man, and it was a PERMANENT role.

It's de facto positive discrimination. I personally have an interest in lecturing, could possibly contemplate secondary teaching, but would not teach in primary to save my life!

Rebel_City

@ satcie101: As far as I know things are better in the UK. A principal I was speaking with said a couple of wks ago the head of Inner City London Schools (or something like that!) was over here giving a talk about teaching over there. They wanted to recruit 140 Irish primary school teachers to work in inner city London. You get extra pay as it's London but meant to be v tough. In the UK the hours are longer due to a massive paper workload.....but it'd all be great for experience. I would imagine if you were willing to travel to the UK there would be plenty of opportunities over there.

@ smcgiff: thanks a mil for that reply. Very interesting indeed. I know a male teacher who just got a year temp contract as well. Sure we'll see how things are next year. But I would imagine, regardless of sex, experience would be a big factor these days. Hopefully the 'male' factor will be a benefit too!!

surfjunkie

if todays recommendations from An Bord Snip are put into place then the job situation will get a LOT worse. there is a recommendation to increase the class size ratio to 29:1.
the number of jobs for new graduates have been greatly reduced this summer as people who have been placed on the panel have to be offered permanent posts first. if the ratio is increased again the sitution will be similar next year. worse probably, as next years graduates will be competing with those who do not get jobs this year.

Do not even get me started on the effects this will have on children in overcrowded classrooms!

Rosita

Bord Snip is also planning to cut the number of teachers training.

Mr.Nice Guy

I'm a recent graduate and have been thinking about going on to become a primary teacher. Considering the current situation, is this wise? Are things likely to be better by around 2011? Thoughts appreciated. :cool:

Alessandra

I am happily starting my PGCE in the UK in September. There are many more opportunities in the UK than here from what I have heard.

The numbers graduating in Ireland at the minute are ridiculous in comparison to the market.
It seems that every second person is going to do primary teaching this year!

Of course there will still be jobs for the lucky few. My brother has already a few options owing to the fact that he is male and has his dip behind him.

I think they should definitely reduce the number of places for teacher training.

Toto Wolfcastle

They most likely will lower the amount of training places. Mary I have been saying for some time that they are unsure whether their postgrad course will run for much longer.

Fast_Mover

Course Mary I/other training colleges they havn't stopped the post-grad yet considering it's €€€'s to them!

yurmothrintites

Going into my final year in my B.Ed in September and I'm thinking; what is the point? At the end of next year, it's likely the current economic climate will be much the same or worse so job prospects will be little to none.

ytareh

Yeah but youve started so you may finish at this stage !I presume you are not speaking 'literally'.Its a degree so will stand you in good stead in the future whatever career you pursue.And of course the good years will be back eventually...

yurmothrintites

But when? What if a graduate wants to get a loan or mortgage in the near future without the hope of getting a permanent job. Banks will just laugh in their faces.

Of all the people I know, who qualified as a teacher in my college last year, not one of them has gotten an interview anywhere. and with the Bórd Snip suggesting more cuts? Prospects are looking very dull. It will take years and years for the country's economic situation to lighten.

seaniebaby86

smcgiff wrote: »

Rebel,

Job based in Limerick.

Yip males will get places a lot quicker. This is down to a few reasons in my opinion.

There's so few of the darlings out there schools like to employ males if they don't have any/many in their schools to give a masculine presence.

They don't go out on maternity leave - less disruption.

They tend to be more ambitious and go on to become principal and then be in a position to hire. Although female principal's will more readily employ male teachers too.

Anecdotally, one of the first people to get a job after graduation in my wife's year was a man, and it was a PERMANENT role.

It's de facto positive discrimination. I personally have an interest in lecturing, could possibly contemplate secondary teaching, but would not teach in primary to save my life!

I agree and disagree with what you say.
I agree in the sense that I am a male teacher, qualified last year and was lucky enough to get a permanent job with my first interview.
I agree that I may have gotten my job because of my penis as there was no other male teacher in the school and also because almost half of my class have no adult male presence in the home. I was, it seems, thus employed as a father figure of sorts.

However, fellas bring a lot more than you mentioned to the table when it comes to hiring for teaching jobs.
We are more likely to get involved in sporting activities. I know of just one female teacher willing to stay back and train the children in our school and the two of us ran all sporting activities between us this year.
We are a lot more laid back and relaxed in our demeanour with the children and can therefore establish a good rapport with them.
We are often seen as better disciplinarians than female teachers. Probably because we reason with the children instead of lecturing them.
This, of course, does not apply to all male teachers, nor does it apply to all female teachers.
these are just some of my observations from my first year as a male teacher.


Interesting story as a side: My first day teaching junior infants on teaching practice, I wore navy pants, blue shirt and a navy tie. On this TP we taught with a partner. One Junior Infant went home to his mother that day and said " Mammy, today we had a new teacher...and a Guard!!!"

smcgiff

seaniebaby86 wrote: »

Mammy, today we had a new teacher...and a Guard!!!"

Good one.

Points taken, but you do know it's not a real man's job!


only joking!

spudz21

Its hard to see any justification for the post grad courses going ahead next January?!what with the huge numbers of graduates out there and the lack of jobs!!:(
Weren't those courses brought in a few years ago when there was a need for extra teachers, I have a feeling they may be wound down soon enough to reduce the numbers training!!
Any opinions??:D
(Just curious because one of my friends is counting on applying for post grad in pats at the end of the year)

ulysses32

spudz21 wrote: »

Its hard to see any justification for the post grad courses going ahead next January?!what with the huge numbers of graduates out there and the lack of jobs!!:(

This rationale never seems to have an impact on second-level teacher training! It suits government to have a large excess of qualified people. Besides, when fees are re-introduced, things will just return to pre-1995 where bodies on courses equals funding regardless of needs, surpluses, etc. This is the sad truth of the market-driven economy.

bbbbbaaaaa

How are Primary Teachers supposed to complete their probation of almost one complete years teaching under the supervision of inspectors if the only work available is one or two days teaching per month. This probationary work is supposed to be completed within five years of qualifying as a primary teacher. I have heard of people with BA degrees and Montessori qualifications (not to mention the retired teachers etc.) getting substitute work when there are thousands of B.Ed.s crying out for experience. With jobs for primary teachers like gold-dust at the moment, surely Principals and those in charge of recruiting primary teachers should give priority to teachers who are properly qualified with Garda clearance. It's up to Principals and parents to demand qualified primary teachers from their Education Centres and there are hundreds available at each centre around the country.. Most jobs advertised are attracting hundreds and sometimes over a thousand applicants and most of these jobs are already allocated to a teacher before they are advertised. Unfortunately, most jobs advertised at the moment are for permanent positions, which may sound attractive, but unless primary teachers have completed their probationary period with Inspector's reports, they cannot apply for these positions - it's a catch 22.
Temporary positions are very scarse as teachers are not taking as many career breaks and those on maternity leave are taking shorter time off.
One complete school year is required to complete probation.
There is no point in sticking it out and waiting for the majority of teachers to emigrate as come next year there will be thousands more qualified teachers joining the queue of job-seekers. The Minister for Education needs to be aware of what is happening on the ground with primary teaching. By reducing class sizes and cutbacks, he is driving our young educators who could be taxpayers, consumers and home buyers out of the country and also he is denying our young an educational experience that they deserve. Many teachers who have missed out on doing their probation within the five-year timeframe will probably never work as teachers.

seaniebaby86

bbbbbaaaaa wrote: »

Unfortunately, most jobs advertised at the moment are for permanent positions, which may sound attractive, but unless primary teachers have completed their probationary period with Inspector's reports, they cannot apply for these positions - it's a catch 22.

I got a permanent job last year without any inspector's report. I didn't even have my transcript from college when I applied. Also, a permanent job in our school this year went to a teacher who hasn't done the dip yet. So it is possible for non-probated teachers to get jobs. Certainly don't let that put you off applying for these jobs, even if thats a requirement in the ad.
As for subbing, best you can do is move to a city, sign up for text-a-sub in that city, and try to gain as much experience as possible cos the dip is a feckin nightmare if you're not experienced enough (I wasn't)!
Also, if you have enough subbing, or a maternity leave or whatever done in a school, you would be familiar to the staff, kids, and BOM and would help you get any upcoming positions. Plus you'd know the school and how it works and you wouldnt be starting cold in a new school (Like I did). Also, you'd be able to apply for other jobs and get glowing references from the principals of the schools you'd subbed in!

But yeah you're right, the current situation is a disgrace and it's only gonna be worse next year and the year after!! Batt doesn't seem to see it coming (One could say that, with regards this issue, he's as Blind as a Batt...) but it's gonna be a huge problem for him in the coming years...

seaniebaby86

Also, you can do your mini dip if you're lucky enough to get a maternity leave. two mini dips = a full dip.

#15

bbbbbaaaaa wrote: »

Unfortunately, most jobs advertised at the moment are for permanent positions, which may sound attractive, but unless primary teachers have completed their probationary period with Inspector's reports, they cannot apply for these positions - it's a catch 22.

I got a permanent job a few weeks ago, just after finishing the postgrad. No dip done or inspectors reports.

Best thing is to go somewhere you have a chance of subbing.

If you're on the dole, volunteer at local schools, just to help out and offer assistance. It keeps you in the education system, you'll get a reference from the principal, and I have no doubt that you'll be in with a great shout for any jobs coming up in schools that you have volunteered in. Best of luck, I know its a tough situation.

bbbbbaaaaa

#15 wrote: »

I got a permanent job a few weeks ago, just after finishing the postgrad. No dip done or inspectors reports.

Best thing is to go somewhere you have a chance of subbing.

If you're on the dole, volunteer at local schools, just to help out and offer assistance. It keeps you in the education system, you'll get a reference from the principal, and I have no doubt that you'll be in with a great shout for any jobs coming up in schools that you have volunteered in. Best of luck, I know its a tough situation.

#15, Congratulations on your permanent job. You were really lucky and well done. I don't understand why so many permanent jobs ask that only fully probated teachers with inspectors' reports should apply. This has prevented me from applying for several positions I was interested in.

bbbbbaaaaa

seaniebaby86 wrote: »

I got a permanent job last year without any inspector's report. I didn't even have my transcript from college when I applied. Also, a permanent job in our school this year went to a teacher who hasn't done the dip yet. So it is possible for non-probated teachers to get jobs. Certainly don't let that put you off applying for these jobs, even if thats a requirement in the ad.
As for subbing, best you can do is move to a city, sign up for text-a-sub in that city, and try to gain as much experience as possible cos the dip is a feckin nightmare if you're not experienced enough (I wasn't)!
Also, if you have enough subbing, or a maternity leave or whatever done in a school, you would be familiar to the staff, kids, and BOM and would help you get any upcoming positions. Plus you'd know the school and how it works and you wouldnt be starting cold in a new school (Like I did). Also, you'd be able to apply for other jobs and get glowing references from the principals of the schools you'd subbed in!

But yeah you're right, the current situation is a disgrace and it's only gonna be worse next year and the year after!! Batt doesn't seem to see it coming (One could say that, with regards this issue, he's as Blind as a Batt...) but it's gonna be a huge problem for him in the coming years...

Seaniebaby, Congratulations on your permanent job and well done. I have a B.Ed. and a few years experience of subbing. I absolutely love teaching and get on really well in the schools I have subbed in. I was never out of work until this September and it was a total shock to me.
I was put off applying for the permanent positions that asked for fully probated teachers with inspectors reports. I am sick and tired of sending off CVs for temporary jobs but I'm going to keep trying for another few months and I'll apply for everything. I'll keep posting on the boards.
I do think the schools should not have total power in the selection process for permanent jobs. There should be a central panel to oversee everything with total transparancy.