can the dole be refused?

snowy2008

hi

my friends partner lost his job and hes going to go to the dole office today, now his partner earns around 300-400 per week so can they refuse him as she is earning? is the dole the same as job seekers allowance?

thanks

StopWhispering

There are many factors involved with whether or not a person can get the "dole". Firstly, he must show that he has been looking for work and provide the reason as to why he is no longer unemployed, among other things such as his partners earnings also.

The dole is the slang name for the Job Seekers Allowance (JSA) and Job Seekers Benefit (JSB). You get the allowance first and then after a year or so you move on to the Benefit which requires re-evaluation of the persons financial and employment states.

If his partner is earning €300-400 a week, then he will have no problems getting the JSA.

p.s. there are different amount of JSA, depending on circumstances such as current benefits, if any.
p.s. The queues will be huge, so advise him to be there well before the doors open and to expect not to get it all sorted today either.

Hope this helps...

Xiney

StopWhispering, you have JSB and JSA the wrong way around.

JSB is not means tested, it's based on PRSI contributions.

JSA is means tested, you get it when you don't have enough PRSI contributions for JSB.

snowy2008

thanks for that folks, her job is shaky at the moment too, daunting times!

StopWhispering

Xiney wrote: »

StopWhispering, you have JSB and JSA the wrong way around.

JSB is not means tested, it's based on PRSI contributions.

JSA is means tested, you get it when you don't have enough PRSI contributions for JSB.

Yes yes, you are right. Thanks for pointing that out actually.

StopWhispering

teresa2008 wrote: »

thanks for that folks, her job is shaky at the moment too, daunting times!

Oh tell me about it!

snowy2008

im going to ask a silly question, are the ques really big and is the job situtation that bad?

StopWhispering

teresa2008 wrote: »

im going to ask a silly question, are the ques really big

The questions are easy, don't worry. You could always go in and get a form, you won't have to give any details there and then, just talk to the clerk and they'll give you the correct form to go off and fill in. So you can bring it home and take your time with it. But to answer your question, the questions are not really long, no.

teresa2008 wrote: »

and is the job situtation that bad?

It all depends on what job you're looking for. If you're an architect, then you're not in the best situation, if you're in debt collection then you'll be grand.

John Mason

teresa2008 wrote: »

im going to ask a silly question, are the ques really big and is the job situtation that bad?

i suppose it depends on what office you go to. Finglas has roughly 2.5 - 3 hour wait and then the same again for the rent relief place.

if by any chance you are going to this office, please note there are no toilets or vending machines, so go prepared, (water, sandwiches etc.)

the job situation as was said before depends on the profession really

dlambirl

Can anyone explain about taking the partners wages in account.

Over what amount/threshold does the S.W take the partners wages into account?? e.g. €300 p.w / €350 p.w / €400 p.w / €500 p.w ????

snubbleste

dlambirl wrote: »

Can anyone explain about taking the partners wages in account. Over what amount/threshold does the S.W take the partners wages into account?? e.g. €300 p.w / €350 p.w / €400 p.w / €500 p.w ????

There's a detailed explanation under 'Means test' on welfare.ie

Max Power1

Its only if you are married or live together - and only if you are applying for JSA. JSB is not means tested. I think theres a link to the formula they use for the means test with youre partners earnings taken into account in one of the stickys here. Ill go look and post it here if there is

EDIT: Couldnt find the spreadsheet i was looking for but this post explains it

hobochris

Personally I don't think they should take your partners earnings into account if living together but not married as there is no legal obligation for your partner to provide financial support for you.

StopWhispering

hobochris wrote: »

Personally I don't think they should take your partners earnings into account if living together but not married as there is no legal obligation for your partner to provide financial support for you.

I'm not married but I don't think there is a legal obligation for someone to provide financial support for their partner if they are married either.

Max Power1

hobochris wrote: »

Personally I don't think they should take your partners earnings into account if living together but not married as there is no legal obligation for your partner to provide financial support for you.

They SHOULDNT, but they do!

axel rose

Max Power1 wrote: »

They SHOULDNT, but they do!

Why not? Either you are in a commited supportive relationship or you are not! Its no different with married people!
If your "partner", "lover" or "better half" does not want to support you in your time of need then he/she is a no good tight fisted ass and you should leave them!

Why do people have problems with this aspect of JSA?

dlambirl

yes but the social welfare wont take loans in account, so if your partner earns €400 p.w but has loans they say that they'll be able to support you when they wont!!

Adventure Pout

Am a bit confused here..So does it mean that the social welfare mean test will take into account what your partner earns?
Am not married but live with my long term partner. So does it mean they will check how much my partner earns?

Xiney

Adventure Pout wrote: »

Am a bit confused here..So does it mean that the social welfare mean test will take into account what your partner earns?
Am not married but live with my long term partner. So does it mean they will check how much my partner earns?

Yes, because for the department of social welfare's purposes, you are "living as married"

Adventure Pout

that is such a disgrace! They actually do what and whenever they want then..
Now I understand - about 3 years ago, I was out of job and applied for the dole or whatever it is called, and have filled out all the papers in all honesty, and they told me that because my partner was earning enough to support both of us, they did not give me anything!!! I was outraged because, then as not married, I can't transfer my tax to my partner or not even be recognized for health insurance etc... but then, when it is about to get your benefits, they said that it applies.. That is just so bad!! So why dont they legalise and recognize not married partners living together, like in France?
So does it mean you have to lie on the papers or can somebody know how to get your benefits?

Xiney

Lying to the social welfare is fraud. They are not "your benefits" if you are not entitled to them under the law.

If you disagree with the regulations, you should contact your local TD.

Adventure Pout

in All honesty, at that time i contacted the local TD - am not irish, so it was a bit difficult, as they count on your votes etc...and what the TD said was:
"lots of people know how to work the system..." = yes they are lying!!
"not wanting to say the word but i think that the better way for you..." = then Lie!!
That was my understanding and my irish partner understanding!!
I find it is so unfortunate that so many people who were claiming the benefits just to pump out the system and not wanting to work during the boom, make it so difficult for geniune people who are really in need now..

Xiney

Well, my response to that would have been that if what he/she is suggesting is that you lie to the system, and that that is what most people are doing and what he/she is advocating, then wouldn't it be better to just change the system so that people were on the right side of the law and not defrauding it?

Honestly, you may not be Irish (neither am I) but my partner is (so is mine) and I have plenty of Irish friends - so if a TD told me to defraud the system of his/her country I'd be telling every Irish person I knew that that TD is an advocate of fraud.

eirebhoy

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

i suppose it depends on what office you go to. Finglas has roughly 2.5 - 3 hour wait and then the same again for the rent relief place.

Just out of interest what is this 3 hour wait for? When you're signing on in the Dublin 2 area you walk in, queue at reception for 15-30+ minutes. The receptionist will give you all the forms you need and give you a date to come back with forms, passport, wage slips, etc. That date will be over a month later.

axel rose

Adventure Pout wrote: »

that is such a disgrace! They actually do what and whenever they want then..
Now I understand - about 3 years ago, I was out of job and applied for the dole or whatever it is called, and have filled out all the papers in all honesty, and they told me that because my partner was earning enough to support both of us, they did not give me anything!!! I was outraged because, then as not married, I can't transfer my tax to my partner or not even be recognized for health insurance etc... but then, when it is about to get your benefits, they said that it applies.. That is just so bad!! So why dont they legalise and recognize not married partners living together, like in France?
So does it mean you have to lie on the papers or can somebody know how to get your benefits?

Out of interest, if you want all the benefits of being a married spouse, why dont you get married? You are living together so you must be commited.

You barbed remark regarding TDs only helping voters lets you down (to say the least). I wonder if accusing posters of telling lies gets me in trouble here?

Adventure Pout

axel rose wrote: »

Out of interest, if you want all the benefits of being a married spouse, why dont you get married? You are living together so you must be commited.

You barbed remark regarding TDs only helping voters lets you down (to say the least). I wonder if accusing posters of telling lies gets me in trouble here?

Am sorry that you disagree axel rose. - first of all, i dont see why I would lie. I am just saying what happened to me. that's it!
2nd Not because am in a relationship means that i want to get married to get all the benefits. what i am saying is, the irish government should make it clear about taxes, social welfare etc... they should either put everybody in the same boat or not, either you are married or not. It can't go one way, then another time, it goes the other way..

3rd Am sure, you will react differently if you were in my situation at that time, and if somebody tells you that you are lying you would think differently about what I have just written about my past situation.
So good luck to you, if one day you are in a similar situation!!

Thoushaltnot

Xiney wrote: »

Honestly, you may not be Irish (neither am I) but my partner is and I have plenty of Irish friends - so if a TD told me to defraud the system of his/her country I'd be telling every Irish person I knew that that TD is an advocate of fraud.

What's that phrase... a country/people gets the government it deserves.

axel rose

Where did I say that I disagreed with you? I agree that the system should recognise couples who live together for both tax, inheritance and benefits. However in this regard even if you were married you would not have been entitled to JA anyway. It really wrecks my head when I read here that 'couples' dont feel they should live off their spouse because they are not married.

Regarding the TD thing, if its true then at least you should challenge that scumbag. Name him! Go to a crappy paper and tell them your story. YOU have paid YOUR taxes for that deadlife to advise people to commit fraud.

Hells Belle

my partner has been unemployed since Feb 08 and recently applied for JSA - we are not married so I can't take his tax credits but my income pre PAYE of €500 per week was taken into account and he's now getting €127 pw. With our mortgage, 2 young kids and car along with all the other things we need like food and heating we will be left with a princely sum of €15 to live on each week. At least we have no loans but we have no savings either so if we get a big bill for something we are literally finished. I know some people are a lot worse off than us but going from €286 pw to €127 was a big shock, I cried when I did out our budget. Oh has sent at least 200 cvs off since being let go and the job is either gone or he hears nothing back.

We both worked since we left school and paid taxes and this is how we are treated. And telling someone to get married is just insulting, why should we if we don't want to? We are committed to each other and I have no problem with supporting my family with what little I have. Is my family less important than one that has a piece of paper and a huge debt from a day out? Obviously it is.

On the other hand my brother is on JSA, living at home and getting €204 even though he has no kids and very very little outgoings. He spends it on drinking all weekend. I have to budget to buy shoes for my children. Maybe this is why we are emigrating.

artful_codger

Hells Belle wrote: »

With our mortgage, 2 young kids and car along with all the other things we need like food and heating we will be left with a princely sum of €15 to live on each week. At least we have no loans but we have no savings either so if we get a big bill for something we are literally finished.

it's not €15 to live on each week, it's €15 after your living costs have been met. Why no savings? sell your car and buy a cheaper one. Rent your house and move into a smaller, cheaper one. Welfare isn't supposed to be comfortable.

eirebhoy

Hells Belle wrote: »

my partner has been unemployed since Feb 08 and recently applied for JSA - we are not married so I can't take his tax credits but my income pre PAYE of €500 per week was taken into account and he's now getting €127 pw. With our mortgage, 2 young kids and car along with all the other things we need like food and heating we will be left with a princely sum of €15 to live on each week. At least we have no loans but we have no savings either so if we get a big bill for something we are literally finished. I know some people are a lot worse off than us but going from €286 pw to €127 was a big shock, I cried when I did out our budget. Oh has sent at least 200 cvs off since being let go and the job is either gone or he hears nothing back.

We both worked since we left school and paid taxes and this is how we are treated. And telling someone to get married is just insulting, why should we if we don't want to? We are committed to each other and I have no problem with supporting my family with what little I have. Is my family less important than one that has a piece of paper and a huge debt from a day out? Obviously it is.

On the other hand my brother is on JSA, living at home and getting €204 even though he has no kids and very very little outgoings. He spends it on drinking all weekend. I have to budget to buy shoes for my children. Maybe this is why we are emigrating.

I thought the income of your partner only counted if you were married. Or at least those that aren't married wouldn't be putting down their partners income.

axel rose

Why should one half of a couple be allowed to earn a limitless amount of earnings and not support their PARTNER when they do not have enough PRSI contributions to get JB? Marriage has nothing to do with this!

If my husband earns €5000 a week and I apply for JA- should I be eligable? Why should this change if it is my partner?

(BTW- have husband but alas no partner:o As for the €5000 a week? )

Max Power1

axel rose wrote: »

Why not? Either you are in a commited supportive relationship or you are not! Its no different with married people!
If your "partner", "lover" or "better half" does not want to support you in your time of need then he/she is a no good tight fisted ass and you should leave them!

Why do people have problems with this aspect of JSA?

Well if they are going to count me as married (when only cohabiting) for this, then i would like all the associated tax breaks etc that married couples get but cohabiting couples dont - as they arent married. cant have it both ways!

Worth noting that a homosexual cohabiting couple is treated as two individuals. Equality? What equality?

axel rose

Max Power1 wrote: »

Well if they are going to count me as married (when only cohabiting) for this, then i would like all the associated tax breaks etc that married couples get but cohabiting couples dont - as they arent married. cant have it both ways!

Worth noting that a homosexual cohabiting couple is treated as two individuals. Equality? What equality?

Ok I cant be bothered to repeat what I already said in post 28 so...

I agree that the system should recognise couples who live together for both tax, inheritance and benefits. However in this regard even if you were married you would not have been entitled to JA anyway. It really wrecks my head when I read here that 'couples' dont feel they should live off their spouse because they are not married.

The point is- either you are both committed or you are not. In this instance you (as a partnered hetrosexual person) is treated the same as a married couple.

IT Loser

Attempting to get back on topic...the question is "Can Dole Be Refused".......well, can it?? Has anyone applied and been told "Nah, you are not getting it"???? Take the single applicant, as opposed to the non-married cohabiting couples.

axel rose

As far as I know if the SW knows if an individual wont look for employment and cuts them off then there is a HSE payment instead. Not saying I think its a good idea though......

IT Loser

axel rose wrote: »

As far as I know if the SW knows if an individual wont look for employment and cuts them off then there is a HSE payment instead. Not saying I think its a good idea though......

It is one thing to cut a claim off half way through, or after a matter of weeks- what I was wondering about was more if the claim was turned down, from the very beginning......

Max Power1

IT Loser wrote: »

Attempting to get back on topic...the question is "Can Dole Be Refused".......well, can it?? Has anyone applied and been told "Nah, you are not getting it"???? Take the single applicant, as opposed to the non-married cohabiting couples.

Apart from if you are found not to be available and seeking employment, they also dont give you JSA if you have savings above a certain amount, or a second house.

Thoie

IT Loser wrote: »

It is one thing to cut a claim off half way through, or after a matter of weeks- what I was wondering about was more if the claim was turned down, from the very beginning......

Provided you have filled in all the paperwork honestly and correctly, and you are genuinely available and seeking work (and can prove it - keep copies of applications submitted, PFOs, the lot) you will get something.

If you have paid enough PRSI (take a look at www.citizensinformation.ie for details on how many weeks and when), then you will be given Jobseekers Benefit. This is not means tested, and is a set amount per week.

If you don't have enough PRSI contributions, then you will be eligible for Jobseekers Assistance. This is means tested, and takes the income and savings of your household into account. It doesn't care whether you have loans, or you really like parmesan or that you need new curtains, it works on a scale and you will be placed somewhere on that scale, which could be anything from €10 to €200 per week (the €10 might be hyperbole).

Whether you are granted JB or JA, you may have to wait quite some time for a decision and for the first payments to be made.

If you are not genuinely available and seeking work, but have no income, you may be eligible for certain supplemental allowances from the HSE, but these are usually operated on a case by case basis, and you're not "entitled" to them.

cee_jay

There are many reasons why your application for JA might be disallowed:
Not seeking work
Not available for work
Not habitually resident
Means in Excess (means from capital/income/partner's earnings/benefit & privilege etc)
Means not disclosed (requested documentation not supplied, willfully not disclosing information re bank accounts, etc)
Lost employment through misconduct
Voluntarily left employment
Refused employment

Basically the list goes on. Each case is decided on its own merits.

mam1

Wonder can anyone help me out OH lost his job last year and I am on long term illness benefit he went to collect his jsb today and was told sorry no more for you, we have a young child, no savings, all gone paying the mortgage,and now no income from him,he has tried countless avenues for work in any area not just his own profession, and has the proof to back this up,what happens now???He was given lots of forms to fill in which we did attaching whatever we were asked for,so just wondering if anyone knows how long we will have to wait for a payment from some where.We cannot last beyond this week as we are already stretched to capacity covering our bills mortgage and food any advice much appreciated.Thanks for reading this.

IT Loser

cAr0l wrote: »

There are many reasons why your application for JA might be disallowed:
Not seeking work
Not available for work
Not habitually resident
Means in Excess (means from capital/income/partner's earnings/benefit & privilege etc)
Means not disclosed (requested documentation not supplied, willfully not disclosing information re bank accounts, etc)
Lost employment through misconduct
Voluntarily left employment
Refused employment

Basically the list goes on. Each case is decided on its own merits.

Thanks- I think your answer and the 2 answers before it provide a largely definitive picture of the fact at hand.

My tuppence worth is that the current system, for JSA, cannot in any way provide definite answers to the above questions- all they can do is determine a general picture, and work off that. Is that acceptable? Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I think the purpose of An Bord Snip is largely defeated if the SW Dept is handing out welfare claims without fully investigating every claim.

In my case, they categorically are declining my attempts to show them my proof of jobseeking. So if my claim is approved, it will be approved without them being sure of first two criteria you mention, namely seeking/being available for work.

If my claim is denied, it would leave the Dept. open to an accusation that they did not properly consider the merits of the claim.

I suppose at the end of the day its all a matter of probability- are you probably within the scope of the payment. If so, they will pay it.

cee_jay

IT Loser wrote: »

In my case, they categorically are declining my attempts to show them my proof of jobseeking. So if my claim is approved, it will be approved without them being sure of first two criteria you mention, namely seeking/being available for work.

If my claim is denied, it would leave the Dept. open to an accusation that they did not properly consider the merits of the claim.

Your claim won't be denied on not available for/seeking work if they haven't questioned this before the decision. If it is, you have the right to appeal. Any decision that is made is appeal-able.
If I remember correctly you have just had your means test. The inspector does not care if you are looking for work or not - he/she is there just to establish your means.
If there is a questions over your seeking work at the claim decision stage, the deciding officer will then request proof you are looking for work. However, in the current climate it is expected that it is harder than ever to find a job, and they may award your claim as you have been waiting so long without this proof. However, at any stage, while you are in payment they may ask for this proof - normally they have review dates in to check for this.

cee_jay

mam1 wrote: »

Wonder can anyone help me out OH lost his job last year and I am on long term illness benefit he went to collect his jsb today and was told sorry no more for you, we have a young child, no savings, all gone paying the mortgage,and now no income from him,he has tried countless avenues for work in any area not just his own profession, and has the proof to back this up,what happens now???He was given lots of forms to fill in which we did attaching whatever we were asked for,so just wondering if anyone knows how long we will have to wait for a payment from some where.We cannot last beyond this week as we are already stretched to capacity covering our bills mortgage and food any advice much appreciated.Thanks for reading this.

His stamps have probably run out and he is now being assessed for JSA? Is that the reason they gave for the forms?
If so, you could try adding him as a qualified adult dependent on your claim - and you receive the full €26 for your child as well then. If it is JSA that he will be claiming, that is the full amount he will receive anyway.
While you are waiting, go to your CWO and enquire re: Supplementary Welfare Allowance.

IT Loser

cAr0l wrote: »

Your claim won't be denied on not available for/seeking work if they haven't questioned this before the decision. If it is, you have the right to appeal. Any decision that is made is appeal-able.
If I remember correctly you have just had your means test. The inspector does not care if you are looking for work or not - he/she is there just to establish your means.
If there is a questions over your seeking work at the claim decision stage, the deciding officer will then request proof you are looking for work. However, in the current climate it is expected that it is harder than ever to find a job, and they may award your claim as you have been waiting so long without this proof. However, at any stage, while you are in payment they may ask for this proof - normally they have review dates in to check for this.

Thats about the size of it cAr0l, I just wonder why it is going to take them two weeks+ to establish my means. :D Anyways thanks for that. I will have a telephone directory for them next time!

The Big Red Button

What about in this case - a friend of mine is applying for JSA. She's 22 and living at home with her parents. She has applied for plenty of jobs and has lots of documentation to prove it. The thing is, the SW asked her for a bank statement, and this shows that her father has a standing order set up paying 80euro a week into her account. This was for living expenses in college - she finished in June - but he hasn't cancelled it yet. She brought in the statements to the office and hasn't heard from them since, she isn't expecting to get anything now. The thing is, if they're going to have it means tested for people living at home, surely the assumption is that the parents are contributing something? So she might at least get the minimum amount?

Hells Belle

artful_codger wrote: »

it's not €15 to live on each week, it's €15 after your living costs have been met. Why no savings? sell your car and buy a cheaper one. Rent your house and move into a smaller, cheaper one. Welfare isn't supposed to be comfortable.

Just to put the record straight we drive an old colt which we share, after selling our other car (a 2002 clio) last year when oh lost his job, our house has been for sale since last year and we've had several viewings and 1 ridiculous offer. We've dropped the price by €100,000 already but no one is buying around here. We are not looking for the high life as you rudely seem to be suggesting, we worked hard during the celtic tiger era and saw no more than our weekly wage. And not that its any of your business but we have no savings because we put it all into our mortgage and fixing up the house. I really don't know what your problem is. Are you always this caustic? Tell my children when they are cold this winter because we can't afford heating oil that welfare isn't supposed to be comfortable. I hope to god it doesn't touch your life because if it does karma will take good care of you.

miec

Just to put the record straight we drive an old colt which we share, after selling our other car (a 2002 clio) last year when oh lost his job, our house has been for sale since last year and we've had several viewings and 1 ridiculous offer. We've dropped the price by €100,000 already but no one is buying around here. We are not looking for the high life as you rudely seem to be suggesting, we worked hard during the celtic tiger era and saw no more than our weekly wage. And not that its any of your business but we have no savings because we put it all into our mortgage and fixing up the house. I really don't know what your problem is. Are you always this caustic? Tell my children when they are cold this winter because we can't afford heating oil that welfare isn't supposed to be comfortable. I hope to god it doesn't touch your life because if it does karma will take good care of you.

Hi Hells Bells

I wouldn't give artful codger the satisfaction of an answer, there are many couples like yourself up and down the country who have contributed to the system, who are then restricted when times are bad. There are some people who get off on other people's misery by putting them down. I suggest you ignore these types and let them on with their bitter, caustic ways.

As to the original Op, in answer to your question on whether a payment will be given when you live with someone? It depends on your partner's earnings and whether you have children. I am waiting for a payment, have one child and live with my partner, I hope I will get some payment, I was told based on the figures given that I should get a half payment of around €80 euro, I would be grateful for any payment because job seeking costs money in terms of phonecalls, e-mails or if lucky, travel to interviews.