The Challenge for Green Energy: How To Store Excess Electricity

probe

For years, the stumbling block for making renewable energy practical and dependable has been how to store electricity for days when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. But new technologies suggest this goal may finally be within reach.

http://www.e360.yale.edu/content/feature.msp?id=2170

Macha

TBH, I don't think it's going to be one thing but a series of things including:
-hydro power
-V2G technology, with the batteries in electric vehicles used as storage
-large electrical appliances, particularly in residences and industry
-demand response technology, with the implementation of the smart grid.

BendiBus

Energy storage will also be of huge benefit to fossil fuelled generators.

Enough storage would allow for total load levelling meaning fossil fuel generators could operate fewer plants at constant (max efficiency) load. This could result in huge cost savings for them, both in terms of fuel and capex on new plant.

The result could even be that coal would retain a significant cost advantage over green energy.

It's important to remember that the competition doesn't stand still in terms of technology or costs either.

Macha

BendiBus wrote: »

Energy storage will also be of huge benefit to fossil fuelled generators.

Enough storage would allow for total load levelling meaning fossil fuel generators could operate fewer plants at constant (max efficiency) load. This could result in huge cost savings for them, both in terms of fuel and capex on new plant.

The result could even be that coal would retain a significant cost advantage over green energy.

It's important to remember that the competition doesn't stand still in terms of technology or costs either.

Once storage costs go down, it will be far, far cheaper to use renewables than fossil fuels. When you build a renewable energy plant (eg wind turbine), by far, most of your costs are upfront in construction. After that, you have no fuel costs and very low operation & maintenance costs. And at the moment, fossil fuels don't have any storage problems so how will they benefit from improved storage? Load levelling comes about from smart grid demand management, not from improved storage (or rather it does with renewables, but with fossil fuels, it isn't an issue)

Oh and then there's that climate change thingy, security of supply, the economic benefits of having a defined, dependable cost...

probe

BendiBus has shown his hand.... he probably plans to put up a dozen or so coal powered electricity generation plants and install EEStor capacitor farms when the technology becomes available and cheap to store his electricity and manipulate the market.

A win-win solution for BendiBus - jack up electricity prices, put competitors out of business and maxxxximize IRL's CO2 emissions.....

Hopefully all the smoke and CO2 emissions he generates will cause more rain to fall to ease the country's desperate drought conditions....:)

Macha

I think that's a bit unfair, probe.

BendiBus didn't actually make any value judgements in his post, s/he was just arguing how improved energy might improve the cost effectiveness of fossil fuels, as well as renewable energies.

I can't see anywhere that this was deemed preferable/better.

BendiBus

taconnol wrote: »

Once storage costs go down, it will be far, far cheaper to use renewables than fossil fuels. When you build a renewable energy plant (eg wind turbine), by far, most of your costs are upfront in construction. After that, you have no fuel costs and very low operation & maintenance costs. And at the moment, fossil fuels don't have any storage problems so how will they benefit from improved storage? Load levelling comes about from smart grid demand management, not from improved storage (or rather it does with renewables, but with fossil fuels, it isn't an issue)

But with energy storage a coal plant can run at full tilt all the time. No need to invest in additional plant to cover peak demand. No need to run a plant at a fraction of it's capacity much of the time (a huge waste of an expensive asset).

That's all I'm saying. And I don't think I'm wrong. Energy storage WILL reduce the cost of fossil fuel generated electricity.

Without doing any sums I suggested this COULD keep coal competitive.

If you have figures to show how energy storage will impact on both the cost of wind AND the cost of coal I'd be very interested so see them.

taconnol wrote: »

I think that's a bit unfair, probe.

BendiBus didn't actually make any value judgements in his post, s/he was just arguing how improved energy might improve the cost effectiveness of fossil fuels, as well as renewable energies.

I can't see anywhere that this was deemed preferable/better.

Probe believes anyone who asks questions is the anti-Christ.

Probe is the worst possible name s/he could have chosen as s/he prefers blind acceptance over any probing!

My key point, and I invite probe to challenge it, was

It's important to remember that the competition doesn't stand still in terms of technology or costs either.

Macha

BendiBus wrote: »

But with energy storage a coal plant can run at full tilt all the time. No need to invest in additional plant to cover peak demand. No need to run a plant at a fraction of it's capacity much of the time (a huge waste of an expensive asset).

Well, yes you're right - through storage, the extra capacity for peak demand would not be necessary. However, there would be an additional cost in storing this energy through hydropower & all the other proposed energy storage methods. And I don't know whether it would be cheaper to be able to reduce capacity and invest in extra storage or use the inherent ease of storage in fossil fuels as they are.

Yes, I see what you mean now. I suppose the way I look at it, is that even at the moment, renewables are reaching grid parity (in terms of generation costs) with fossil fuels. And renewables have a significant disadvantage in that they are variable and cannot be stored as easily. As such, any improvements in electricity storage technology will have a relatively greater impact on renewables (and as a result their price) than fossil fuels.

It may be looking beyond simple generation costs (and if you want to leave these out, fair enough) but there are significant externalised costs to fossil fuel energy generation, such as air pollutants and of course C02 - adding these onto the price would be a significant advantage for renewables.

BendiBus wrote: »

If you have figures to show how energy storage will impact on both the cost of wind AND the cost of coal I'd be very interested so see them.

I don't - I don't even know where we would find them.

probe

BendiBus wrote: »

Probe believes anyone who asks questions is the anti-Christ.

Probe is the worst possible name s/he could have chosen as s/he prefers blind acceptance over any probing!

Lighten up BendiBus. See the at the end of my post!

I was thinking for a second that I should register "anti-Christ" as my new ID to replace probe, but I might get caught up on the wrong side of this "constitutionally required" blasphemy law if I did so!

BendiBus

taconnol wrote: »

However, there would be an additional cost in storing this energy through hydropower & all the other proposed energy storage methods.

And this additional cost will apply to renewables too!

taconnol wrote: »

I suppose the way I look at it, is that even at the moment, renewables are reaching grid parity (in terms of generation costs) with fossil fuels. And renewables have a significant disadvantage in that they are variable and cannot be stored as easily. As such, any improvements in electricity storage technology will have a relatively greater impact on renewables (and as a result their price) than fossil fuels.

Now that's a good point!

Macha

BendiBus wrote: »

And this additional cost will apply to renewables too!

Sure! But answer the rest of my post

Selective quoting is too easy :pac:

BendiBus

taconnol wrote: »

Sure! But answer the rest of my post

I DID!! You jumped in too fast

probe

BendiBus wrote: »

It's important to remember that the competition doesn't stand still in terms of technology or costs either.

No. But the cost of carbon based fuel does go up, and the price of hydrocarbons will be rising ever faster over the next decade or two. Wind turbines are dirt cheap at the moment. Why is electricity so expensive in IRL? One of the reasons is the high hydrocarbon input compared with elsewhere.

If Ryanair was in green electricity, Michael O'Leary would probably be in the market for €10 billion worth of kit at half-price right now. It would be delivered over the next five years or so, just in time for the economic recovery, and for oil, gas and coal prices to get seriously high as demand recovers - particularly from Asia. Just as electricity storage technologies are becoming cheaper and more mature.

Competition doesn't stand still, and most of it will be coming from renewables over the next decade or two.

Macha

D'oh! Am feeling impatient with the F5 button!

Because I don't have access to exact figures, the benefits/costs of improved energy storage can be figured out on a percentage basis. So...
... if storage costs for renewables are 20% of the total cost and the costs come down 50%, then that will cause the total cost of renewables to go down 10% (you follow?). And..
... if storage costs for fossil fuels are 10% of the total cost and the costs come down 50%, then that will cause the total cost of fossil fuels to go down 5%.

And remember, it can do a lot of economic damage to have the price of energy fluctuate as dramatically as we have seen over the past 2 years. Imagine if you could say to a company: your energy costs will be €X per kwh for the next 3 years. It can have a very positive impact on planning and budgeting.


I would highly recommend this document:
http://www.ewea.org/index.php?id=178

2nd one down - 'The Economics of Windpower'

OK it's by the EWEA, an obviously pro-wind organisation but it is very interesting. Sadly, Dr. Simon Awerbuch died in a plane crash in 2007 Apparently it's a guy called Spencer Yang that has taken over his work. The executive summary should do just fine!

boomshackala

Good to hear some positive speak about renewables again for a change.



Roll on the days where we're not even charged for the amount of energy we use, like unlimited calls versus pay per call, and we pay a facility charge only..the future is blue

Here's another amusing link for your perusal

Presn the icon in the top right hand corner to toggle full screen
http://earth2tech.com/greennet-09-presentations/bob-metcalfe/

Macha

boomshackala wrote: »

Roll on the days where we're not even charged for the amount of energy we use, like unlimited calls versus pay per call, and we pay a facility charge only..the future is blue

Whoah whoah...why do you want free energy? Then there's no incentive to be efficient. There is a cost, even for renewables (in materials, operation & maintenance, transmission costs, demand management costs, etc etc etc!!)

boomshackala

taconnol wrote: »

Whoah whoah...why do you want free energy? Then there's no incentive to be efficient. There is a cost, even for renewables (in materials, operation & maintenance, transmission costs, demand management costs, etc etc etc!!)

Those are mostly fixed costs, not dependant on usage. I do alot district heating systemsand the bulk of the costs are fixed, the fuel (wood pellets / chip / mischantus) is cheap. I think we might see more of this in the future. I have one customer who will remain unnamed who wilfully blasts excess heat into the atmosphere.



Anyway, looks like we are in serious need of abunant energy by the bucket load soon with impending clean water shortages..

BendiBus

probe wrote: »

BendiBus has shown his hand.... he probably plans to put up a dozen or so coal powered electricity generation plants and install EEStor capacitor farms when the technology becomes available and cheap to store his electricity and manipulate the market.

Actually, I've sometimes seen energy arbitrage as a real possibility.

Company A produces electricity with coal
Company B produces electricity with wind

Company C owns one of probes capacitor farms and buys whatever is cheapest at any given time to sell to suppliers when there's excess demand.

So no generator, windy or smokey, has to worry about the capital cost of storage.

And on the subject of wind, here's a link to a section of my favourite energy book of the moment. The whole book is free to read online

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c4/page_32.shtml

Macha

boomshackala wrote: »

Those are mostly fixed costs, not dependant on usage. I do alot district heating systemsand the bulk of the costs are fixed, the fuel (wood pellets / chip / mischantus) is cheap. I think we might see more of this in the future. I have one customer who will remain unnamed who wilfully blasts excess heat into the atmosphere.

The price of electricity isn't just about the cost but also about market signals/incentivisation. If a resource is priced at €0, there is no incentive on the consumer to be more efficient. Case in point: current lack of residential water charges in Ireland.

Can I ask what sort of developments you do your district heating systems with? Here in Ireland?

probe

BendiBus wrote: »

And on the subject of wind, here's a link to a section of my favourite energy book of the moment. The whole book is free to read online

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c4/page_32.shtml

That book refers to overcrowded Britain (population 61 million) - England is one of the densely populated countries in Europe. Large parts of it are not very windy - eg much of the south east, midlands, north.... Their electricity demand is about 60 GW.

IRL is windy and has only a handful of wind turbines installed (very few located in coastal waters), which turned out almost 1 GW of electricity per hour last Saturday for example. Which is about 25% of the country's total electricity requirement. (Today's peak demand is forecast to be 3.6 GW/h).

More turbines, some storage and grid interconnectivity with other states is the sustainable answer.

probe

boomshackala wrote: »

I have one customer who will remain unnamed who wilfully blasts excess heat into the atmosphere.

While I don't know who your customer is (I don't really care) I can think of one (The ESB) who is probably the largest single willful blaster of heat into the atmosphere in Ireland. Energy that could be go into district heating systems with proper planning.

Power stations located in sparsely populated remote locations could have their waste energy piped to industrial users who have a need for same (eg food processors).

boomshackala

taconnol wrote: »

The price of electricity isn't just about the cost but also about market signals/incentivisation. If a resource is priced at €0, there is no incentive on the consumer to be more efficient. Case in point: current lack of residential water charges in Ireland.

Can I ask what sort of developments you do your district heating systems with? Here in Ireland?

Yes here in Ireland. Hotels and industry (multiple boiler rooms) housing schemes and apartment blocks. Needless to say the residential side is slow at the moment

boomshackala

taconnol wrote: »

The price of electricity isn't just about the cost but also about market signals/incentivisation. If a resource is priced at €0, there is no incentive on the consumer to be more efficient. Case in point: current lack of residential water charges in Ireland.

Can I ask what sort of developments you do your district heating systems with? Here in Ireland?

If renewable energy is abundantly available, then what need is there for efficiency? Mostly where storage is a problem like cars etc. This is a long way off if ever though. In the meantime its efficiency to the max

Macha

boomshackala wrote: »

If renewable energy is abundantly available, then what need is there for efficiency? Mostly where storage is a problem like cars etc. This is a long way off if ever though. In the meantime its efficiency to the max

Because electricity costs money!! And there is the question of capacity that applies to renewables as well as fossil fuels. Sorry but there is no argument for having free energy and just encouraging inefficiencies.

Why do you think storage issues are "a long way off"? Storage is a critical issue for REs, actually many would consider it the holy grail of RE.

boomshackala

The electricity in many cases is free, like wind or solar. Its the facility to capture it, a fixed cost, which costs money. Much like telecoms infrastructure. It does'nt cost them much to send signals down the line (the price of a call), its the equipment that costs. So if sufficient facility is there and being paid for by the consumer the usage does'nt cost much. Theres no fuel to pay for. In the end the market will decide, and in telecoms the market says pay me line rental, calls free.

The other thing is economies of scale. Its much cheaper to put in larger installled capacity relatively speaking, and if and when the additional energy is available, why not give it away it the fuel does not cost anything.

If I set up a community wind farm and have sufficient capacity and storage, I pay for capital O+M, and spares. My costs don't change much whether I use the max electricity or don't use any at all.

Storage is not the only question, so is a smart grid, more likely a DC grid

Macha

boomshackala wrote: »

The electricity in many cases is free, like wind or solar. Its the facility to capture it, a fixed cost, which costs money.

Yes the fuel is free but the infrastructure, installation, and operation and maintenance is not free. There will also have to be massive investment in setting up the surrounding infrastructure, as in the smart grid.

boomshackala wrote: »

in telecoms the market says pay me line rental, calls free.

Sorry I didn't get this part.

boomshackala wrote: »

The other thing is economies of scale. Its much cheaper to put in larger installled capacity relatively speaking, and if and when the additional energy is available, why not give it away it the fuel does not cost anything.

Because, as I have said, there would be no incentive for efficiency - you keep ignoring this point!

boomshackala wrote: »

Storage is not the only question, so is a smart grid, more likely a DC grid

It will probably be using HVDC cabling.