What is a skeptic? What is a cynic?

iamhunted

Due to some discussion on another thread, maybe we should all talk about how we define skeptic and cynic? It'll give us all a better handle on where the other is coming from and it may stop some people attempting to report me 'for abuse'.

A Cynic:

A person who believes their own point of view and really, has no intention of moving from it. Classic cynical lines are "I'll believe it when I see it" though the cynic well knows no 'evidence' will ever be enough.

Lets look at the paranormal and how cynics work. "I will believe it when you can prove it to me" says the cynic ... but how can you prove anything in the paranormal realm? Traditionally theres at least 4 ways to 'prove' something.

1) Experience it.

This will never happen a cynic as they never put themselves in a position of ever experience anything paranormal. They dont research, they dont go looking. They expect things to just happen to them and for people to just prove things to them. Therefore, this is not an option for the cynic.

2) Audio recordings

Audio recordings of apparent paranormal activity. This is no proof as audio can easily be faked. Present audio as proof to the cynic and they will ask 'How do I do that's real'? Thats its a valid question.

3) Video recordings

Much the same as audio - easily faked and cant really be used to 'prove' anything

4) Word of mouth

Same again as audio and video - cant really be used to prove anything so again is no good as 'proof'

So - as you can see, if someone isnt willing to bother themselves trying to find out about the paranormal, then they arent really in a position to have an opinion on it - unless they are cynical about it.

A bit like never watching football or never going to a match, but yet claiming to be an expert on the subject from reading the back of the Sun.

Mainly, the only way to get 'proof' of anything paranormal is go look for it as anything outside of personal experience is just no good as 'proof' to anyone - and even then you have to analyse that experience and decide if it was actually anything paranormal or not plus it only 'proves' something to the individual concerned.

The Skeptic

Being skeptical, to me anyway, means you might have doubts about something, but you are prepared to accept it if you can be convinced.

This is a bit different to the cynic as the cynic proports to be open to convincing, but in reality isnt as they know theres no way, outside of experience, to prove these things. And a cynic doesnt want to go out and get the experience.

The important thing about being skeptical is the ability to keep a small part of the mind open to all possibilities if the need to comprehend them comes up.

For example.

Mr A says 'My house is haunted because [insert ghost story here]'

Mr Cynic says: "present me with the proof right here to me in my armchair and if I believe what you present then I will agree."

We know at this stage that this cant happen as all 'proof' can be faked.

Mr Skeptic on the other hand might say: "You claim to have a ghost but it could be X, Y or Z. If its not X, Y or Z, then theres a possibility you *might* be on to something but you would need to spend time examining all the possibilities."

A more inquisitive Mr Skeptic will actually try and find out if it is X, Y or Z rather than make presumptious demands that he knows can never be filled.

Anyway - thats my take. Whats yours? - and leave the dictionary at home as this isnt about what a book says, but what real life says. There is a difference.

There is a very very very fine line between the hard edged skeptic and the borderline cynic.

iamhunted

i assume therent arent many points of view on this then?

Zombrex

Since you asked, and because I don't want to derail the feedback thread.

I would consider your definition of a cynic some what accurate (in a "real world" sense which you insist on using), the idea that a cynic is someone who dismisses things presented to them by other people off hand without any genuine desire to learn or to study what is being presented to them, where as a sceptic is someone who requires a high standard of convincing but is open to being convinced.

The flaw in your reasoning for applying it to sceptics of paranormal claims such as myself is that it is based on the as yet unfounded assumption that if you did actually present scientific evidence that a paranormal claim is accurate the myself or other we would refuse to accept it.

Since you have never actually done that to me or anyone else you have dismissed as a cynic, that assumption appears to be based solely on your own prejudges of the poster you are responding to.

Which, in an interesting irony, makes you some what of a cynic, using the actual definition of the word, some who

- believes all people are motivated by selfishness.
- whose outlook is scornfully and often habitually negative.

You assume the worst about people based on a prejudice of how you believe they would act in a situation that you have not presented to them

And then use that assumption to attack them for something they have not actually done.

So that is what I think a cynic is. Your thoughts?

watty

A cynic will hardly ever believe anything not in their existing world system in the populist sense of the word. The Philosophical and historic sense is different. By Cynic you really mean Modern Negative Cynicism.

A Sceptic takes nothing at face value, but tests it with logic and experiment. (S)he then decides what the explanation is based on experimental data and logic. Again the Modern meaning is Empirical Scepticism, not the Philosophical and historic sense.

Empirical or scientific skeptics do not profess philosophical skepticism. Whereas a philosophical skeptic may deny the very existence of knowledge, an empirical skeptic merely seeks likely proof before accepting that knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism


An explanation with no repeatability, that contradicts pure logic or that makes no testable predictions is not acceptable to either.

karynp

honest to god,im getting a pain in my backside with all this bickering. the discussion was for people to post there thoughts on what they percieved to be cynic or skeptic. so can that not just be done,AGAIN,the ripping apart of opinions has happened.
JUST FOLLOW THE REQUEST.
stop rolling over the personal feelings into every single thread.

for me, a cynic is someone who just takes the pee outv other peoples beliefs and refuses to move from their opinion.
a skeptic is a bit untrusting of stories or opinions but can or will change their thoughts given the chance.

Zombrex

karynp wrote: »

honest to god,im getting a pain in my backside with all this bickering. the discussion was for people to post there thoughts on what they percieved to be cynic or skeptic.

No the discussion was for iamhunted to try and get people to agree with him so he can justify call everyone who doesn't agree with him a "cynic", including myself. I'm still waiting for him to demonstrate that I've been presented with strong evidence for the accuracy of a paranormal explanation that I've refused to acknowledge. Strangely despite not offering this (a requirement for his own definition of a cynic) he continues to call me a cynic.

Isn't context fun.

Seriously where are the mods on this forum?

watty

clicky the and they usually read the post. Sometimes maybe they just let people get on with digging deeper holes.

JC 2K3

I thought the difference was that skeptics reject claims without being presented with scientific evidence, whereas cynics reject claims and refuse to believe scientific evidence when presented to them.

Neither group will, however, accept any sort of pseudoscientific evidence. Until you actually present them with proper, scientific evidence, you have no way of knowing whether someone is cynical or skeptical.

I think iamhunted's use of the word "cynic" is gratitous and dismissive. In the context in which he uses it, it's no different to him using the word "gay", i.e. "Anyone who doubts the paranormal is a cynic" is semantically identical to "Anyone who doubts the paranormal is gay". It's childish, and as Wicknight mentioned, is cynical in itself.

iamhunted

watty wrote: »

clicky the and they usually read the post. Sometimes maybe they just let people get on with digging deeper holes.

i cant see how this thread is about digging holes. I agree totally with what karynp said. I wish mr/miss wicknight would drop it tbh.

A Sceptic takes nothing at face value, but tests it with logic and experiment.

'tests' is the important word there as well as 'experiment'. It seems to be the defining mark between a skeptic and a cynic - one will try and find anwsers whereas the other wont, and instead insists on proof being delivered to them.

iamhunted

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I think iamhunted's use of the word "cynic" is gratitous and dismissive. In the context in which he uses it, it's no different to him using the word "gay", i.e. "Anyone who doubts the paranormal is a cynic" is semantically identical to "Anyone who doubts the paranormal is gay". It's childish, and as Wicknight mentioned, is cynical in itself.

I dont think you have completely been following the way Ive been using the word. certainly by saying "Anyone who doubts the paranormal is a cynic" shows you havent as its not something I would or have ever said.

Oryx

This mod has been in a field in Wolverhampton. If you have a problem with a post, please report it and it will be brought to our attention.

I think the dictionary definitions have been given for both skeptic and cynic, and iamhunted I am going to close this thread for the moment. I can only see it going around in a circular argument of what we think is the mindset of other posters. Please feel free to pm with where you hoped to go with this thread, and we can discuss reopening. Thanks.