American Soil In Ireland?

Biggins · 14-07-2009 9:00pm #1

I was talking today to a person that works in Dublin Airport.
They are in a full time job, is high up, very well trusted, high security access to all areas ...that is except one!

A certain building section on pier B at the airport. Why I asked him why were they not allowed access they told me "That whole part of the building belongs to the Americans and is regarded by the Irish authorities as American soil, the same as an embassy".

They explained that the Irish police have no authority and cannot enter it without absolute permission from the American ambassador or the American goverment.
I couldn't believe this but the person speaking to me was very genuine, a good friend of 20 plus years and had no reason to lie or make it up.

Can this be true? Outside the American Embassy in Dublin, can the Americans have legal ownership of property and class it as American soil with all the attached American rights of entry and arrest etc? Can they deny the existence and enforcement of Irish legal laws at this building at Dublin Airport?

BaconZombie · 14-07-2009 9:04pm

The Embassy car that are flying the country's flag are also counted as part of the embassy and therefore part of that county.

Biggins wrote: »

I was talking today to a person that works in Dublin Airport.
They are in a full time job, is high up, very well trusted, high security access to all areas ...that is except one!

A certain building section on pier B at the airport. Why I asked him why were they not allowed access they told me "That whole part of the building belongs to the Americans and is regarded by the Irish authorities as American soil, the same as an embassy".

They explained that the Irish police have no authority and cannot enter it without absolute permission from the American ambassador or the American goverment.
I couldn't believe this but the person speaking to me was very genuine, a good friend of 20 plus years and had no reason to lie or make it up.

Can this be true? Outside the American Embassy in Dublin, can the Americans have legal ownership of property and class it as American soil with all the attached American rights of entry and arrest etc? Can they deny the existence and enforcement of Irish legal laws at this building at Dublin Airport?

Terry · 14-07-2009 9:04pm

Moved from AH before it gets spoiled.

shenanigans1982 · 14-07-2009 9:05pm

Yep, in my old job we had a contract for the airport and I got a bollocking for stepping onto american soil with seeing the immigration officer.

Stev_o · 14-07-2009 9:05pm

Biggins wrote: »

I was talking today to a person that works in Dublin Airport.
They are in a full time job, is high up, very well trusted, high security access to all areas ...that is except one!

A certain building section on pier B at the airport. Why I asked him why were they not allowed access they told me "That whole part of the building belongs to the Americans and is regarded by the Irish authorities as American soil, the same as an embassy".

They explained that the Irish police have no authority and cannot enter it without absolute permission from the American ambassador or the American goverment.
I couldn't believe this but the person speaking to me was very genuine, a good friend of 20 plus years and had no reason to lie or make it up.

Can this be true? Outside the American Embassy in Dublin, can the Americans have legal ownership of property and class it as American soil with all the attached American rights of entry and arrest etc? Can they deny the existence and enforcement of Irish legal laws at this building at Dublin Airport?

If it's a military institution such as a air base then yes, they have plenty in Britain which are considered American territory.

ejmaztec · 14-07-2009 9:23pm

Isn't it the same deal at Shannon with US immigration?

Joey the lips · 14-07-2009 9:28pm

There is 2 things that spring to mind

1, Is it not the same for irish soil in america

2. If an america crosses the line in america will it be more or less serious than an irishman crossing it over here!

Biggins · 14-07-2009 9:33pm

Stev_o wrote: »

If it's a military institution such as a air base then yes, they have plenty in Britain which are considered American territory.

Except there are no military bases (besides the arguments over Shannon!) that are American.
By allowing them to have further "American soil" does this not also effect and influence our so called neutrality as a nation.
That the Americans can come and claim our soil as theirs in multiple places and revoke our laws for theirs!
I'm a bit disgusted at this to be honest. Who the hell do they think they are!

They have one place in Dublin by courtesy of the Irish people and subsequently, by our government for them to operate as an American Embassy.
What gives them the right then to go claim other places!!!

Fratton Fred · 14-07-2009 9:49pm

I guess it is to do with the immigration set up in Dublin, which makes sense I suppose.

I think there is a similar arrangement between Britain and France at one or both ends of the chunnel. The US also have a bit of land in Runnymede, near where the Magna Carta was signed, it was given to the US as a memorial to Kennedy.

I would say that it is all more of a formality than anything else, especially at the airport. The US might own it, but if they got too big for their boots they wouldn't last long if the Irish decided to beseige it, it probably hasn't even got it's own jacks!!

shenanigans1982 · 14-07-2009 11:33pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

, it probably hasn't even got it's own jacks!!

It has....and a shop.

Although I went to America a few weeks ago my initial flight was from Dublin to England but departed from the gates located on "american soil" but no immigration officers were to be found. Maybe it only belongs to them during certain hours.

asdasd · 14-07-2009 11:36pm

Clearly it has to do with immigration at Irish airports. Since that is a convienence for us, I dont think we sould get too much in arms about this. If there is an immigration depot at Dublin Airport, then it would only work if after getting cleared you were on American soil.

asdasd · 14-07-2009 11:38pm

my initial flight was from Dublin to England but departed from the gates located on "american soil"

if you went to England first you weren't cleared in Dublin.

Biggins · 14-07-2009 11:55pm

asdasd wrote: »

Clearly it has to do with immigration at Irish airports. Since that is a convenience for us, I don't think we should get too much in arms about this. If there is an immigration depot at Dublin Airport, then it would only work if after getting cleared you were on American soil.

I don't see any European or non-EU countries claiming customs areas as mini-states at our airports. What makes the Americans so special? Have they bought us off that much?
Its not just the custom desk area. They have turned whole sections, floors of pier B in to another American mini-state. Seriously, what the hell!

shenanigans1982 · 15-07-2009 12:12am

asdasd wrote: »

if you went to England first you weren't cleared in Dublin.

I never said I was. I still had to pass through the queue and the unmanned immigration booths to access the gate my flight was leaving from. Thus crossing onto so called American soil....I don't think it can be changed back and forth depending on whether one of them has stamped your passport.

Biggins wrote: »

I don't see any European or non-EU countries claiming customs areas as mini-states at our airports. What makes the Americans so special? Have they bought us off that much?
Its not just the custom desk area. They have turned whole sections, floors of pier B in to another American mini-state. Seriously, what the hell!

Its hardly floors...its one gate and a seating area but I agree that the Americans seem to take liberties other countries don't on the basis they are doing us a favour by letting us travel into their country.

donkey balls · 15-07-2009 12:13am

it has to do with pre clearance for us cutoms/migration there is only three of these in place outside of the US one in canada and the two here in ireland snn&dub

Biggins · 15-07-2009 12:28am

shenanigans1982 wrote: »

...Its hardly floors...its one gate and a seating area but I agree that the Americans seem to take liberties other countries don't on the basis they are doing us a favour by letting us travel into their country.

Just so some know, there are other sections not accessible by the general public (coming and going) but can only be accessed by airport workers/personnel with pre-security clearance from the Americans.
Those accessing those areas apparently have been told Irish laws don't apply for example in those areas but American laws do!

I just find it amazing to be honest.

Purple Gorilla · 15-07-2009 12:45am

Ireland is one of 2 EU countries where we have US Border Control in our airport. As was said, it's a convenience. It means that when we get to America, we can get our bags and go. We don't have to line up for Border Control. It's a special agreement between Ireland and the US because they

us.

That is what the extra American Soil is for... You don't see it from any other EU country because there aren't any border controls for EU citizens I believe

Biggins · 15-07-2009 12:52am

I can see the sense in that. The rejection of Irish laws in favour of American one though is for me amazing.
For example on the very sight off chance someone caused trouble at those areas, would they be shipped off on a place back to the states without any legal re-dress under Irish law or can the America's just say the equivalent of "stuff you" and march them back onto a plane to the states without any Irish Gardi, etc saying "Hold on a minute, the culprit in in Ireland mate and has rights here too - Irish legal rights!"

Purple Gorilla · 15-07-2009 12:58am

Biggins wrote: »

I can see the sense in that. The rejection of Irish laws in favour of American one though is for me amazing.
For example on the very sight off chance someone caused trouble at those areas, would they be shipped off on a place back to the states without any legal re-dress under Irish law or can the America's just say the equivalent of "stuff you" and march them back onto a plane to the states without any Irish Gardi, etc saying "Hold on a minute, the culprit in in Ireland mate and has rights here too - Irish legal rights!"

I'd say whoever told you that might be off a bit. My brother works in DAA so I'll ask him when he gets home for confirmation, but it would be easy to think that local law doesn't apply to foreign-American soil (EG-Embassy) but that's wrong... extra-terratoriality is only granted in rare cases

donkey balls · 15-07-2009 1:01am

would they be shipped off on a place back to the states without any legal re-dress under Irish law or can the America's just say the equivalent of "stuff you" and march them back onto a plane to the states without any Irish Gardi, etc saying "Hold on a minute, the culprit in in Ireland mate and has rights here too - Irish legal rights!"

so if i was a bold boy and did some thing bad in the american embassey i dont think i would be shipped of to the US more than likely detained untill the garda arrived.
and if charges where brought against me they would be in an irish court

Biggins · 15-07-2009 1:09am

Its an interesting legal point as regards Dublin airport. Curious to know how things would actually stand.
(LOL - don't worry, I'm not starting to plan my coup d'état from pier B LOL)

Darragh29 · 15-07-2009 12:39pm

Biggins wrote: »

Except there are no military bases (besides the arguments over Shannon!) that are American.
By allowing them to have further "American soil" does this not also effect and influence our so called neutrality as a nation.
That the Americans can come and claim our soil as theirs in multiple places and revoke our laws for theirs!
I'm a bit disgusted at this to be honest. Who the hell do they think they are!

They have one place in Dublin by courtesy of the Irish people and subsequently, by our government for them to operate as an American Embassy.
What gives them the right then to go claim other places!!!

It certainly raises a more important question... We have suspicions about US rendition aircraft having landed at Dublin Airport over the last number of years, possibly with illegally detained prisoners on board, and then we find out that the US have this little section of the airport which is basically US land, with no possibility that any Irish authority could inspect the area or investigate anything that might be happening there. This is what concerns me...

It's the need that the US think they have for this facility is what is of most concern, given their actions to date with regard to rendition...

Fratton Fred · 15-07-2009 12:51pm

where exactly is this mini gitmo in dublin Airport. I would say I am pretty familiar with Pier B and other than maybe a smallish office, I can't think where this mystery place is.

If you are talking about the downstairs gates then I would be highly suspect if this was actually US soil, as there are no signs telling you as much.

As I sid earlier, if there is a micro state in there, anyone entering or leaving has to pass through Irish territory first, so although it may be under US jurisdiction, the Americans would have to pay a certain amount of respect to Irish laws.

Dob74 · 15-07-2009 3:12pm

Biggins wrote: »

I was talking today to a person that works in Dublin Airport.
They are in a full time job, is high up, very well trusted, high security access to all areas ...that is except one!

A certain building section on pier B at the airport. Why I asked him why were they not allowed access they told me "That whole part of the building belongs to the Americans and is regarded by the Irish authorities as American soil, the same as an embassy".

They explained that the Irish police have no authority and cannot enter it without absolute permission from the American ambassador or the American goverment.
I couldn't believe this but the person speaking to me was very genuine, a good friend of 20 plus years and had no reason to lie or make it up.

Can this be true? Outside the American Embassy in Dublin, can the Americans have legal ownership of property and class it as American soil with all the attached American rights of entry and arrest etc? Can they deny the existence and enforcement of Irish legal laws at this building at Dublin Airport?

I think you are over reacting. America is a friendly government and its done like that to make immigration to the US easier.

asdasd · 15-07-2009 3:17pm

It's the need that the US think they have for this facility is what is of most concern, given their actions to date with regard to rendition...

Its a judgement call.

1) Do we have easy immigration to America, or
2) Do we ban rendition by not allowing the Americans to have their piece of Irish land...

I Calles for a Pole.

KerranJast · 15-07-2009 3:23pm

This is just like the USA v Petoria war in 2000. It did not end well for plucky Petoria.

JumAPond · 15-07-2009 3:54pm

As an American, I find a few of the posts here a little comical as the generalizations made of us "Americans" happen to be a little off.

As it is, I have travelled through the land "owned" by the United States in Canada on my flight back from the U.K. It was a regular customs block that allows anyone arriving via the airport, connecting onto the US, to be able to circumvent customs once arriving in the US. My belief, which I will find out possibly this weekend, is that the area at Dublin is very much the same as mentioned in previous posts.

As for disregarding laws, lets slow down for a second. If anyone remembers all of 5 months ago, Kyrgystan passed a bill that closed the US Military Air Base at Manas (which with Russia's backing has now been allowed to remain under certain restrictions).

Bases are easier to understand than embassies. Law applied on base will be US & US military, however because of the above statement, at any time, the 'host' country holds complete revocation privilages on the presence of the United States doing any type of operations within the country's borders because most are leased. An embassy is a stickier subject as its my belief that it is actually considered legal territory of the foreign country.

My guess would be, if called for by the Irish, the privilages on the piece of land could be revoked.

Manic Moran · 15-07-2009 4:28pm

If anyone remembers all of 5 months ago, Kyrgystan passed a bill that closed the US Military Air Base at Manas (which with Russia's backing has now been allowed to remain under certain restrictions).

Passed through Manas a few weeks ago, so I was looking into the history of the place. It was as much a numbers game as anything else. Russia has an airbase of their own a few miles away, the end result was that the rent that the US is paying for the place tripled to about $60m a year. However, the US did close down the facility in Uzbekistan at the Uzbek's request.

As far as the US facility at Dublin and Shannon are concerned, we actually went over the details in the "American Empire" thread a while back, and I did some research.

I don't believe it's considered American soil but it could arguably considered inviolate under the terms of the Vienna conventions as a consular facility.

The premises of the mission shall be inviolable. The agents of the receiving State may not enter them, except with the consent of the head of the mission

So to answer the earlier question, in the case of an unruly passenger the INS agents could detain him and then grant consent for the Gardai or Airport Police to enter and haul him off. Irish laws still apply, just the agents of the Irish Government can't walk in on their own.

The terms of the US INS stations in Ireland in particular can be found under the Air Navigation and Transport (Pre-inspection) act of 1986. Section 6 of the act lists the priviliges and immunities afforded.

A citizen of the United States, who is a permanent employee of the government of the United States and is assigned to carry out duties at a preinspection facility, shall not be amenable to the jurisdiction of the judicial or administrative authorities of the State in respect of acts performed by him in the exercise of his duties under the Agreement.

It then lists the various duties which (s)he could be engaged in, whilst effectively under diplomatic immunity. It also goes on to say that a list of additional priviliges shall be agreed bilaterally with the US in an exchange of notes.

NTM