Work Experience or Level 8 Degree?

BlackEdelweiss

I recently finished my level 7 BEng in building services engineering and would appreciate some advice from more qualified engineers as to where to go from here.
I have managed to get a job, working for free, a few days a week with an engineering firm on a fairly large project. The project is set to last for another year at least and is at the setting out stage now. I have been thrown in at the deep end doing surveying for the very first time and having to learn it all as I go. I dont have a clue what they are on about most if not all of the time but it is starting to sink in. I am getting good experience dealing with subbies and other engineers and when the building is moving along the engineer said I can do some work with the services co-ordinator which would be good to see. I think I will get to see a lot if I stay on this job and i am really enjoying it as it is my first experience of working on an actual site.
My question is, should I stay on in this job and get as much experience as I can in the next year or should I go back to college to try to get a Level 8 honours degree?
Which would be more beneficial to me for my career, experience or qualifications?

drunken_munky52

I'm far from qualified myself and would also like an engineers feedback. I'd have to say in my own view that gaining experience is not worth giving up the chance to complete honours while your still in college mode. With a level 8 you will always have that extra edge over others, you become more knowledgable, which means you wont be stuck in survaying for long and will progress quickly through your career.

I'd say, if you aint comfortable with where you are now, then this means you just crammed at college so far for the sake of getting a degree. To boost your confidance, go back and work hard to ace your honours with distinction. Do it while your are still young, coz as the years push on youll prob become far more resigned to idea of not bothering to return.

Experience > qualifications usually, especially since you have an engineering degree. Would your college give you the opportunity to go back to do a year long course to bring you up to Level 8, or alternatively is there anything available to do it part-time while working? Would be a shame to give up a job in this country since there's not that much out there, but at the same time having Level 8 would be better (possibly essential?) for getting chartered, though that's not for everyone.

Perhaps treat it as a 'year off' and if you lose your job in the future, well then go back and go on to Level 8 assuming that's allowed.

littletiger

qualification will pay in the long term. may not yield the most money up front but opens more doors. eg can't progress in a council without level 8 so you just get stuck.

greener&leaner

Definitely take the work experience right now.
With any luck it will lead to a paid job and that's gold dust right now.

You can do the degree any time, look into part time and distance learning opportunities, but don't turn down work experience.

BlackEdelweiss

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

I'd say, if you aint comfortable with where you are now, then this means you just crammed at college so far for the sake of getting a degree. To boost your confidance, go back and work hard to ace your honours with distinction. Do it while your are still young, coz as the years push on youll prob become far more resigned to idea of not bothering to return.

I'd like to know where in my post did you get the idea that I just crammed at college for the sake of getting a degree. I finished top of my class and if it were not for the incompetence of one of my lecturers I would have had an average mark in the high 70's.
The reason I am not comfortable now, which are your words not mine, is because I have never done surveying before, it is not a part of building services engineering. In the past month I have had to learn how to set up and use equipment I had never heard of before, I had never even heard the terms that were being used to explain how to use the equipment.
Thank you for your response but please dont make assumptions about my life and my motivations for furthering my education.

I have the option of deferring the final year level 8 course, and I can do it part time if I want. I cant afford to do the course part time and work part time so I think doing the work now while it is here and going back to college next year could be the best plan. But I am wondering that if I did get offered a job at the end of it or because of it would I be better going with the job?

drunken_munky52

I am sorry if you think I focussed to much on your motivations in life, I thought this was part of your question. You did not give very much detail in your first post, this is why I assumed.

From reading this thread again, I can see that my advice conflicts with another. Therefore, I would say that blogging this question on the internet is a bad way to get advice for this sort of question. I would suggest you go to a career guidance counsellor. Theres no need to be a lost sheep with services like this availible.

von Neumann

Hi OP,

Experience all the way, no question.......

I could put a ridculous number of letters after my name if I wanted to but in the real world that's all they are.

Being able to Talk the talk and Walk the walk are far more important in the real world and there only one way to learn that.............

You can always study part-time (which your employer should be will to cater for)

If you feel your doing a good job......go and ask for a pay rise even now if your good they won't want to lose you.

BlackEdelweiss

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

I am sorry if you think I focussed to much on your motivations in life, I thought this was part of your question. You did not give very much detail in your first post, this is why I assumed.

Never heard the old saying, "Assumption is the mother of all fcuk up's".

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

From reading this thread again, I can see that my advice conflicts with another. Therefore, I would say that blogging this question on the internet is a bad way to get advice for this sort of question. I would suggest you go to a career guidance counsellor. Theres no need to be a lost sheep with services like this availible.

An internet forum dedicated to Engineering and frequented by experienced engineers is not the place to ask for advice from experienced engineers about my engineering career???

drunken_munky52

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

Never heard the old saying, "Assumption is the mother of all fcuk up's".



An internet forum dedicated to Engineering and frequented by experienced engineers is not the place to ask for advice from experienced engineers about my engineering career???

Im just saying that I think a neutral objective opinion would be best suited. I only said what was my thoughts on the matter, as the other person has, which is the complete opposite of what I said. Thus that is my new thought on the matter, in that you should get guidance from a trained person in that field. I have gone to one about choosing my direction and it was enlightening.

Since you have used that vulgar catch phrase and have now shown your sarcastic streak, you seem to be intent on conflict rather than getting a resolution to your original confusion. Have you any other constructive additions to the responses on this thread?

Intent on conflict?

DM, you're the one telling him he's better off effing off. :rolleyes:

I don't suppose you've heard of the concept of taking multiple readings and then drawing the line of best fit? Yours is one of many valid readings, and our good freind the OP will draw the line of best fit frim the replies he gets....

Anyways, we digress form the problem at hand. OP, I'm in a similar situation, but I'm jobless and contactless. I'm taking a year out to pay my current college debts (<E5,000, should be done for Christmas-Febuary) then hoping to plough into 2nd year of a MEng degree (with one year's work placement) in the UK. (Mech's my current HND, but I'm trying for Aero).

There's not much I could say to help I'm afraid, only I would advise looking to the UK or NI if you're so inclined. Lots of courses factor in work experience into up to a year of the course, and you already having a qualification would run in your favour above the rest of the school-leaving class when looking for a company to work with.

Now don't just take my word for it now, there are far older hands here who'll be able to steer you more accurately.

drunken_munky52

Put this link in your pipe and smoke it then:

http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab7.htm

Take the diagram to the top of mount Fuji and think about it some more, your walking on a tight rop.

Turbulent Bill

OP, I'd go with experience for now, even though I'm a firm believer in educational qualifications. I'm sure there's a glut of both graduate and experienced building services engineers looking for jobs, so what you have you hold. It's easier to complete a Level 8 course in the future with an employer's assistance, having shown your competence in the workforce, than coming fresh from college like all the other graduates with no experience. You might even discover that building services isn't for you and go for a different Level 8 course (which I assume is possible).

Be careful not to work for free indefinitely though. Once you're bringing value to the business you should start earning (even a small amount), as the employer is gaining from your work.

Turbulent Bill

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Put this link in your pipe and smoke it then:

http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab7.htm

Take the diagram to the top of mount Fuji and think about it some more, your walking on a tight rop.

This is irrelevant for the OP at the moment - education will pay in the medium to long term, but only experience will differentiate him from his peers when it comes to actually getting and holding a job right nowin the middle of a recession.

Dardania

Turbulent bill makes some excellent points. Btw you seem to be well able to express / defend yourself clearly which is a definite plus in enginering...

Having experience on a large project is gold dust-if you figure you'll enjoy it, and it sounds like you'll get a experience I say go for it, and study later. Don't be afraid to ask questions!

BlackEdelweiss

Thanks for everybody's advice, it is generally what I had thought in my own mind, I just needed a bit of professional reassurance.
I have one more question that I would appreciate a similar standard of advice on except this time I have no idea of what would be the best path to take.

Should I try to do a few smaller courses while I am working, something like CPD courses, even though I am not set in any particular career path yet, although I would like to work in the energy efficiency area and have enrolled in the SEI IS393 Energy Management System introduction course someone posted about on this forum. Should I concentrate more on these kind of courses and try to get myself into a particular career area while still sticking to my plan of getting a level 8 qualification at a later stage, or should I wait till I am actually in a career before I try to further myself with the CPD courses?

Turbulent Bill

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

Should I try to do a few smaller courses while I am working, something like CPD courses, even though I am not set in any particular career path yet, although I would like to work in the energy efficiency area and have enrolled in the SEI IS393 Energy Management System introduction course someone posted about on this forum. Should I concentrate more on these kind of courses and try to get myself into a particular career area while still sticking to my plan of getting a level 8 qualification at a later stage, or should I wait till I am actually in a career before I try to further myself with the CPD courses?

It makes sense to do general CPD courses (project management, report writing etc.) if you stay working in the short term, as there's an immediate benefit to you and your employer. If you had the time/money you could also dip into different career areas you might be interested in through the courses. Most of the courses are practical and don't need prior experience.

I'd try to set a date for doing your level 8 course though, just as a target. It's easy to let it slip.

matsil

I haven't read the 20 other replies......

Just to give you an idea of my perspective, I am a mech. building services engineer. I have made solid and rapid progress in my career since graduating in 2004 (5 years ago). I have just been awarded Chartered Engineers with CIBSE (CEng MCIBSE). I'm a senior engineer, in a leading role, and have had the opertunity to work at project engineer level on several large €20m+ projects. I'm also a BER assessor and a CIBSE Low Carbon Consultant

When I got my first post grad job, my work experience was instruemntal in getting the job and getting on quickly up the ladder. I had worked for PM and ARUPS on summer jobs. But without my level 8 degree, I wouldn't have had a chance of getting where I am now.

My advice to you, if it is possible for you financially, would be to hang onto your job, and do it for a year. You will make alot of contacts and it will open your eyes as to what is important to you. You can also do lots of CP courses - CIBSE Journal and BSD journal do some great CPD programms..... do a couple of them every week and you will have a very strong knowledge base. Then go back to do your level 8 degree in 2010 and you'll sail through it, especailly your project. In the interim, you might happen upon a wage paying job - which you might decide to keep - you can then go on to do a Msc. Building Services via distance learning - which will cost money but will let you work and study....... coz to tel lthe truth, for your first 3 years you will be classed as a junior / intermediate engineer and the level 8 isn't going to make much difference....... and as far as jobs go, as a 2010 grdauate with a level 8...... there won't be much out there that other junior engineers who have a years work experience won't beat you to.

The level 8, in my opinion, is most important when it comes to getting CEng. You can make senior engineer without CEng, but to go on to Principle / associate director / or SENIOR senior eng within a big company, you really need your CEng these days. So, if you go down the route I suggest, you'll get in a years experience, then either put in a year full time if you can't get a wage paying eng. job or if you do get a wage paying job, get into a Msc. distance learning with Brunel or someone...... eitherway, in 3-4 years time, you should have your level 8 and good experience behind you, which will give you a competative edge over your peers that have no exprience and qualifications hanging out their rear end.....


The way things stand at the moment, if I were taking on a junior eng tomorrow, and was faced with the choice of a guy with a level 7 qualification and a years experience who is studying for his level 8 by night - OR - a level 8 guy with no experience, then I would take the former hands down.

There is one caveat here - if you were looking for a job with someone like Pfizer, Bord Gais, The Council, ESB, ESBI..... or some very large bureaucratic organisation, then they won't even review your application unless you have a level 8 H1 or H2.1........

What ever you choose, you've got to make your bed and sleep in it. But personally, I wouldn't expect it will be easy to find a job if graduating in September 2010 with a level 8.

HTH

Matt

BlackEdelweiss

Hi Matsil,
Thanks for the reply, plenty to think about in there.
Can I apply for a Msc. Building Services without first having a Level 8?
I would love to work specifically in lighting as it was a module I really enjoyed in college and I think it will be a big growth area. I was thinking of trying to do a few smaller courses in lighting to get me a foothold in this sector of the industry rather than waste my time doing more generic engineering modules just to get a level 8 and still have no knowledge of lighting. I think that employers in a niche industry would rather see qualifications that related to their service instead of a general degree. I have found a few courses accredited by CIBSE and the ILE, none of them would bring me to a Level 8 though.
In your opinion is there a market to specialize in one service rather than be a general services engineer?

matsil

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

Hi Matsil,
Thanks for the reply, plenty to think about in there.
Can I apply for a Msc. Building Services without first having a Level 8?
I would love to work specifically in lighting as it was a module I really enjoyed in college and I think it will be a big growth area. I was thinking of trying to do a few smaller courses in lighting to get me a foothold in this sector of the industry rather than waste my time doing more generic engineering modules just to get a level 8 and still have no knowledge of lighting. I think that employers in a niche industry would rather see qualifications that related to their service instead of a general degree. I have found a few courses accredited by CIBSE and the ILE, none of them would bring me to a Level 8 though.
In your opinion is there a market to specialize in one service rather than be a general services engineer?

Regarding can you apply for the Msc. - I am not sure, but I think that your level 7 (called an "ordinary degree" or "bachelors degree" I believe) is the academic equivalent of a standard uk degree. I am saying that because in the UK you need a masters degree for CEng - but our Honours degree is enough for CEng here and is recognised by the ECUK as meeting the academic requriements for CEng...... which seems to suggest our level 8 is the academic equivalent of a UK Masters (MEng)....... so I an inferring from that, that our level 7 is the same as their BEng...... and as far as I know a PG masters in the uk requires that you have a good BEng degree...... best thing is to enquire with them directly..... better on the phone than email, and tell them your plan, and they'll advise.

In terms of specialisms - at this stage of your career it is a bit of a gamble. If you come out of the gate with a very specialised qualification, then you are very limited where you can apply - and if the market doesn't do so well, then you have nothing to fall back on. For example, my degree is Mechanical Engineering - which isn't even building services....... while I have fashioned my career to the building services industry, my grounding in fluid mechanics and thermodynamics means that in time there is the potential for me to go into R&D in a consultantive role, or to get into the energy sector anywhere from power generation to product development, and everything in between. While you may be very interested in lighting, it may be the case that persepctive employers aren't interested in you (for economic reasons), and then where will you turn?

There is no harm in having a specialism, don't get me wrong, but not to the exclusion of other options. At this stage, my opinion, is that it is better to have a strong degree in a broad disipline, and be able to demonstrate a strong professional interest in your specialism of choice. This broader outlook will give context to your specialism, and enable you to view the market and projects in a broader context. There is merrit to the idea that upon graduation, if a company out there is looking for a lighting specialist, then you will certainly be their man...... but thats only a maybe, and while it is a truism that there are alot of building services engineers out of work at the moment, that will not always be the case - and in 2 years time, which is when you are looking at trying to fine "real" work i.e. wage paying, things should hopefulyl be looking up, and prospects should be better.

Anecdotally - Last year I left a good M&E consultant job in order to specialise into the energy sector. At the time it was a no brainer move - until I got a P45 in January - but I was able to immedaitely fall back on my broader mechanical background and qualifications, while offering a specialism in sustainable / renewable design....... which clinched the job for over over several hundred applicants...... specialism is good, so long as it is against the back drop of knowing the industry as a whole and experience operating in it, in order to contextualise your speciality.

Please remember that forums such as this are for discussion - this is just my opinion, and I am far from an expert. You should view the input of people here as "food for thought" - not as expert advice, and take all opinions with a bucket (not a pinch) of salt!

HTH

Matt

spideog7

matsil wrote: »

Regarding can you apply for the Msc. - I am not sure, but I think that your level 7 (called an "ordinary degree" or "bachelors degree" I believe) is the academic equivalent of a standard uk degree. I am saying that because in the UK you need a masters degree for CEng - but our Honours degree is enough for CEng here and is recognised by the ECUK as meeting the academic requriements for CEng...... which seems to suggest our level 8 is the academic equivalent of a UK Masters (MEng)

I don't think so cause the new requirement is for a Masters, not sure of exactly when it comes into effect but if memory serves me correct it is for anyone graduating on or after 2012. So basically anyone starting an engineering degree this year will not be able to become chartered (with EI) without achieving a Masters qualification, anyone who graduated before then does not require a Masters even if they don't become chartered until after 2012.