This relegation nonsense

adrian522

This whole relegation thing is an absolute mess now.

IMO Antrim have behaved disgracefully through the whole thing. OK Maybe they were guarenteed the Leinster experiment would be for 3 years beofre deciding if they would then return to just competing in Ulster but surely this was never meant as a guarentee that they could never be relegated.

Their chairman:

"'As far as we're concerned, we're in Leinster and the McCarthy Cup for three years. Besides, I don't see how it benefits anybody to drop down a tier,"

Maybe he doesn't see benefit to promotion and relegation, but tell that to Carlow, don't they deserve a shot at the Laim mcCarthy (and an actual Leinster county at that). At leat they train hard all year and give everything.
Antrim on the other hand can't even get their players home from portugal for big championship games. They should take their releagtion if it comes to it.

Even worse is Mike Mac at Clare, surely the worst performing hurling team at any grade this year (League Played 7, lost six drawn 1, Championship Played 2 Lost 2).

This is what he had to say:

"It is an ill-conceived idea. The Antrim position isn't clear-cut as they have been guaranteed a place in Leinster for three years. That means they can't be relegated.'

"When you are knocked out of the championship the stuffing is also knocked out of you. You lose the ability to go to war. We are not being given time to rest, heal and start again. The first time I was informed of this was in the dressing room last Saturday night when I was thanking the players for their contribution this year. Then I was told the year isn't over. It should be put on the shelf. We are currently in limbo. The last thing we want is another game."

Whose job does he think it is to inform him of the fixtures and the format of the championship. Surely as a (soon to be former) inter county manager he should know the format of the championship and how many games he is required to play???

I brand the whole thing as a farce!!!

Daysha

Antrim are absolutely right to stand their ground in this mess. They were screwed by the GAA year after year with some completely unfair Championship formats that gave them little to no competitive matches in the summer. Moving to Leinster was the best thing for them, so dropping back down and play the likes of Kerry and Meeth when they were promised 3 years of Leinster matches would be a serious kick in the teeth for hurling in the county.

Similarly, it's an absolute joke that they are telling traditional hurling counties like Clare and Wexford to fight for their Liam McCarthy status. Neither of them should be nor will be relegated, so the the GAA are just wasting both counties time.

That said, Carlow deserve their place in Leinster and the All-Ireland next year. You can't just let them continue to win Christy Ring's without giving them the opportunity to step up to the plate and test themselves. Give them their place in Leinster next year and you'll have an even number of 8 teams in the competition. 4 quarter finals, 2 semis and a final in an open draw. Simple.

As for the qualifiers, have an preliminary round between two beaten Leinster quarter finals. Whoever wins joins the 7 other teams that didn't reach their provincial finals. 8 teams in a completely open draw (not split into 1st round and semi final losers). Then the 4 winners face off in two more matches, with the two winners qualifying for the AI quarters.

In a sense it fixes a lot of the current problems with the structure. Carlow and Antrim still get their chance, and the farcical situation of 1st round losers getting easier matches than semi final losers is also gotten rid of. But we all know what it's like to get the GAA to make such a logical decision.

adrian522

So no promotion or relegation after this year?

dougal

Daysha wrote: »

That said, Carlow deserve their place in Leinster and the All-Ireland next year. You can't just let them continue to win Christy Ring's without giving them the opportunity to step up to the plate and test themselves. Give them their place in Leinster next year and you'll have an even number of 8 teams in the competition. 4 quarter finals, 2 semis and a final in an open draw. Simple.

That would be an ideal solution to the current problem - but it does create an issue for next years Christy Ring winners - where do they go?

Stealdo

Why not take a look at what's done in other sports?

The Snr Hurling Championship has always reminded me a little of the Leinster Schools Cup in rugby in terms of the gulf that normally exists year to year between the tier 1 teams and the rest. However an exceptional team from tier 2 really should have an opportunity to compete at tier 1.

Secondly surely it's an aim of this tiered system to eventually have (as unlikely as this may be) 32+ counties competing in a meaningful way for the Liam McCarthy cup the same as we have in football?

If these things are true then why not have a situation where you take your 12 teams that are able to reasonably compete on a year to year basis, run off the Christy Ring cup earlier in the year without killing it due to the weather, and allow the champs into the Liam McCarthy. There should be time to do it with a straight forward knock out CR Cup, and the extra games would probably be a benefit to the teams stepping up. Having won the CR maybe 3 times on the trot give them an option of taking up a permanent position or semi permanent position in the LMcC.

Unless we want to forever have only a third of the teams competing at the top level.

Browney7

In the probable event that Antrim get relegated they should be put into the Christy Ring and replaced by Carlow. Let's not forget that this Antrim team lost to Laois in the 1st qualifying round and lets face it..Laois are not exactly the best team going.:rolleyes:

Antrim showed how desperate they were to stay in the Leinster and All Ireland championship by letting a number of their players go on holiday the weekend they were due to play Laois. Now they are up sh1t creek they are going to fight tooth and nail to stay up. Carlow have earned their chance and if Antrim end up being relegated then lets be rid of them for the year.

That said though I think it's a complete joke making teams fight for their survival immediately after the championship.

Temporary Dub

Everyone expected Laois to go down and that would have been the easy option.

Fair play to the lads for not giving up and giving a great performance in Portlaoise. Most Laois hurling fans knew that there was direct relegation from McCarthy cup this year so I don't see how the Antrim Board had no idea about it beforehand.

Personally I think whoever loses should go down, if you don't win a game you don't deserve to be in the McCarthy Cup, god knows we didn't deserve it the last few years!:o

Still as has been said the Christy Ring should be played off earlier with the winner getting direct entry into McCarthy Cup. Would make a lot of sense. Wonder will anyone take heed though :rolleyes:

premierstone

Temporary Dub wrote: »

Still as has been said the Christy Ring should be played off earlier with the winner getting direct entry into McCarthy Cup. Would make a lot of sense. Wonder will anyone take heed though :rolleyes:

All well and good in theory but for that to happen you would have to have the Christy Ring finished by the end of April meaning no summer hurling for every county apart from the winners which would make no sense in developing weaker counties

conf101

If all the relegation plans go ahead you could potentially have a situation where Wexford get relegated having one only one match while Offaly, Antrim, Clare, Cork and Laois have also only won one!

K-9

Temporary Dub wrote: »

Everyone expected Laois to go down and that would have been the easy option.

Fair play to the lads for not giving up and giving a great performance in Portlaoise. Most Laois hurling fans knew that there was direct relegation from McCarthy cup this year so I don't see how the Antrim Board had no idea about it beforehand.

They had also been promised a 3 year trial stint in Leinster.

I think Carlow deserve a go in Leinster but I think Antrim should be able to keep their place there. Both are probably too good for the Christy Ring now. The top 10 teams are catered for well as they meet the requisite standard. You then have teams like Antrim, Laois and Carlow now that are probably too good for the Christy Ring.

conf101

Surely if Antrim are relegated they can compete in the Leinster Championship but not qualify for the AI? Didn't Westmeath do this a few years ago? From what I've read it seems like Antrim were given a guarantee to be in Leinster for 3 years but nothing regarding the AI series. Sounds to me like they're just chancing their arm!!

eagle eye

It seems pretty ridiculous in fairness. And to say they can compete in Leinster and not the All Ireland is crazy. I know its not likely to happen but if they became Leinster Champions then they would have to be entitled to a spot in the All-Ireland. In fact just thinking of another scenario, if they beat a team in Leinster who went on to become All-Ireland Champions it would make the whole thing a joke.

yahoo_moe

eagle eye wrote: »

it would make the whole thing a joke.

You're right... except for the fact that it's already a joke.

The tiered Championship system was set up in a way that was far too rigid - only allowing a maximum of one Christy Ring team to compete in the following year's McCarthy Cup. Westmeath beat Dublin a couple of years ago before losing to the same team in a relegation play-off. Then they had no provincial Championship when they went looking for it this year after winning the Christy Ring again in '07, and it looks like Carlow may suffer the same way. Meanwhile Dublin lost a competitive Leinster final this year and are setting up for a long summer's hurling.

As for Antrim, they were put in Leinster and got a bye to the final of an otherwise fairly competitive Ulster Championship. They lost to Dublin, only barely scraped by Down and then lost to Laois - so tell me how exactly they're a level above Down, Derry, Westmeath, Carlow and Laois? I'm not saying they should be dropped down, but the system is a mess and isn't flexible enough.

Clinging to a badly-distorted version of the old AI model is harming a lot of counties and the whole system should have been reevaluated properly (and over a proper amount of time) last year. Instead, the 3-year Leinster experiment was rushed through, making a messy situation even messier.

Stevecw

Browney7 wrote: »

In the probable event that Antrim get relegated they should be put into the Christy Ring and replaced by Carlow. Let's not forget that this Antrim team lost to Laois in the 1st qualifying round and lets face it..Laois are not exactly the best team going.:rolleyes:

Antrim showed how desperate they were to stay in the Leinster and All Ireland championship by letting a number of their players go on holiday the weekend they were due to play Laois. Now they are up sh1t creek they are going to fight tooth and nail to stay up. Carlow have earned their chance and if Antrim end up being relegated then lets be rid of them for the year.

That said though I think it's a complete joke making teams fight for their survival immediately after the championship.

Well said Browney, and the bit i highlighted is the important part.
Yes i was all for Antrim entering Leinster championship this year, but they have blown their chance. That is total disrespect to the Liam McCarthy Cup that they have 2 vital players missing and for the entire week before the game the manager away too, all before their most winnable game in the competition

They deserve to be relegated, and none of this 3 year stuff. Why didn't Westmeath a Leinster county get a 3 year guarantee when they got to play in Leinster in 2007??

Antrim if they do end up bottom deserve to play Christy Ring 2010. And i don't agree with anyone who says they will be too good for it, as they barely beat Down in Ulster final by 2 points. And in league they drew with Westmeath in Belfast...and a few weeks ago Westmeath had to play a relegation game just to survive at Christy Ring level.
Carlow who are promoted beat Antrim in league too, so maybe at the moment Christy Ring is the Antrim standard.

They should just accept that fact, and if they are good enough get their act together go win it next year and they still have their Ulster championship.

K-9

Stevecw wrote: »

Well said Browney, and the bit i highlighted is the important part.
Yes i was all for Antrim entering Leinster championship this year, but they have blown their chance. That is total disrespect to the Liam McCarthy Cup that they have 2 vital players missing and for the entire week before the game the manager away too, all before their most winnable game in the competition

They deserve to be relegated, and none of this 3 year stuff. Why didn't Westmeath a Leinster county get a 3 year guarantee when they got to play in Leinster in 2007??

Antrim if they do end up bottom deserve to play Christy Ring 2010. And i don't agree with anyone who says they will be too good for it, as they barely beat Down in Ulster final by 2 points. And in league they drew with Westmeath in Belfast...and a few weeks ago Westmeath had to play a relegation game just to survive at Christy Ring level.
Carlow who are promoted beat Antrim in league too, so maybe at the moment Christy Ring is the Antrim standard.

They should just accept that fact, and if they are good enough get their act together go win it next year and they still have their Ulster championship.

Down usually give them a good match every few years and they'd a poor League campaign alright. Still, they beat Kilkenny last year in the Walsh Cup!

Anyway, it's all a bit premature this yet. It could be Clare, Offaly or Wexford yet.

Stevecw

K-9 wrote: »

Down usually give them a good match every few years and they'd a poor League campaign alright. Still, they beat Kilkenny last year in the Walsh Cup!

Anyway, it's all a bit premature this yet. It could be Clare, Offaly or Wexford yet.

I know that k-9 thats why i stated "Antrim if they do end up bottom deserve to play Christy Ring 2010.

I actually think as will happen that Antrim & the other 3 will be saved, and there will be no relegation for this year, And we will have a 8 team Leinster next year which for Leinster championship is a lovely even number.
But its in qualifiers that problem arises. 5 in Munster 8 in Leinster is a hard one to sort out!

Thats where the mess kicks in. GAA you made this mess, sort it out!
1 up, 1 down is the way it really should work...this 3 year promise is silly and they should never have done that!:rolleyes:

Pride Fighter

They have recently introduced a 4th tier of hurling in the Lory Meagher Cup, maybe they should introduce another, with Carlow, Antrim, Westmeath, Laois and Down. Anyway hurling is a mess, but I dont want Antrim relegated, I also want Carlow to take their place where they belong, in the Leinster Championship and All Ireland series.

mink_man

why would antrim get a guarantee to play in leinster for 3 years? shouldn't the gaa have said if you dont get relegated than you can play in leinster.
its times like these it shows the GAA is an amateur organisation.

Manuss

There is no All-Ireland hurling championship if only a third of counties are allowed compete. Waterford footballers are allowed compete for the Sam Maguire but Down's hurlers are excluded from the LiamMcCarthy.
The Ulster council have shown that you can have an inclusive entertaining competition by simply tiering the competition.
Allow 1 LoryMeagher team progress to Nicky Rackard stage, 1 NRackard team into Christy Ring stage etc. Relegation would not then be so traumatic for Clare or Antrim.
Clare might have to play Kerry and Antrim, (if in Leinster) would have to play Kildare or Westmeath before re-joining the big boys.

Repolho

In the unlikely event that Clare are relegated from the Liam McCarthy for next year will Carlow replace them in Munster or will Carlow go into Leinster and Munster play off with only 4 teams?

Maybe a better system would be where all teams can compete for the All Ireland, perhaps with the bigger teams coming in at a later round (similar to the FA cup). When teams are knocked out of the All Ireland they could then go into the second / third tier competitions, like a plate or shield.

Not sure how this would gel with the provincial system though?

celticbest

The idea of relegation is in itself stupid.

I know the weaker counties might get hammered in the first round of the Leinster / Munster championships, but unless the kids in these counties have something to aspire to they are not going to want to Play Hurling and this will lead to less counties in the championship in the future which is what none of us who love the sport want to see.

Look at Dublin in this years championship losing by 6 points in the Leinster Final to Kilkenny is no embarrassment, let's not forget what Kilkenny had done to the so called bigger counties over the last few years, this proves that the smaller/weaker Hurling counties can improve given the next generation more hope and encouraging them to aim for the top with the knowledge that it is possible to compete at the highest level.

Let's not forget that the GAA is an amateur organisation which is suppose to be open to all people with all levels of ability.

Imposter

What I can't understand with the way things are ran and the way new championship structures are developed is that there is a hardcore group that want the path to the all-Ireland finals to "remain like it always was" yet are happy to allow back doors and whatever other hairbrain schemes they come up with but balk at the idea or a league based format for the championships.

The current back-door system does help weaker counties in that they are getting more games but it helps the stronger counties more. Teams like Kerry in football now need to be beaten twice. Same goes for hurling if a big team messes up early.

In hurling it would be nice to think that all counties could play Liam McCarthy but I think that is unrealistic. Personally I think 2 maybe 3 competitions are needed. A 16 team Liam McCarthy ran on a 4 groups of 4 seeded system with 2 to progress to the quarter finals from each group would be best imo. That would currently leave us with teams like: Cork, Tipp, Clare, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, Kilkenny, Wexford, Offaly, Dublin and then 6 weaker teams.

This realistically leaves those teams mentioned above fighting for the 8 quarter final places but gives them at least 1 tough match and 3 competitive matches before then. It also gives the weaker teams a chance to improve with 3 games every year against decent opposition.

Have relegation and promotion too and the weaker teams get even more competitive games. The level 2 (and possibly level 3) would also be similar with teams getting at least 3 competitive games every year.

I'd play the provinces seperately possibly before the championship. Leagues could be reorganised or scraped in order to accomodate the new structure.

Devaluing the provincials has already been done. Yes no team likes to lose their provincial final but with the back door systems in place they know they will have another day in the championship. Time to scrap it and give everyone a similar chance and give the weaker teams a realistic chance to improve.

premierstone

celticbest wrote: »

Look at Dublin in this years championship losing by 6 points in the Leinster Final to Kilkenny is no embarrassment, let's not forget what Kilkenny had done to the so called bigger counties over the last few years, this proves that the smaller/weaker Hurling counties can improve given the next generation more hope and encouraging them to aim for the top with the knowledge that it is possible to compete at the highest level.

The reason that Dublin have made huge strides has nothing to do with being in the Leinster Championship or the Liam McCarthy its down to the fact that they put huge resources into hurling within the county and started from the bottom up, look at their underage success and now Carlow are following suit.

It will not matter what system or format is used if the county boards themselves and those within dont want to help themselves then there is very little that anyone can do for them and its not as simple as bringing in a top class manager and having the most committed senior panel, it must begin at the grassroots or else it will be unsustainable.

yahoo_moe

premierstone wrote: »

The reason that Dublin have made huge strides has nothing to do with being in the Leinster Championship or the Liam McCarthy its down to the fact that they put huge resources into hurling within the county and started from the bottom up

Yes, but the current system means that even if every Christy Ring county starts doing the same thing, only one per year can make the step up which is a poor half-league, half-championship system. Dublin are lucky their underage talent came on stream just on time to avoid relegation - as I said, they were beaten in the Leinster Championship by Westmeath just a few years ago.

EDIT: Obviously this is mostly a long-term view, but you get the point - if strong youth systems start to come through to senior level in 3 or 4 counties around the same time, they should all be able to jump to the top level and learn their hurling that way just as younger players in the Tipps and Kilkennys do.

Manuss

Imposter wrote: »

In hurling it would be nice to think that all counties could play Liam McCarthy but I think that is unrealistic.

Is it not unrealistic to think that Waterford, Clare, Liatrom, Louth, Carlow, etc can compete in the Sam Maguire cup.

Imposter

Manuss wrote: »

Is it not unrealistic to think that Waterford, Clare, Liatrom, Louth, Carlow, etc can compete in the Sam Maguire cup.

Not so long ago Carlow, Clare and even Leitrim were competing in their provinces. Ok it was unlikely that they were ever going to win Leinster/Munster/Connaught but they had a shot at the final. Realistically how many teams have a shot at Sam each year? 3 maybe 4 - similar to hurling imo.

Putting weaker hurling teams into the Liam McCarthy doesn't help them progress - they gulf to the big boys is simply too much. Similarly having Antrim/Laois/Carlow/Westmeath in the Liam McCarthy with the current system imo does not help these teams much. They get 1 chance and then they have relegation matches. Give them 3 games and then relegation matches and you will see these teams improve.

Similarly it would be a lot fairer for everyone to have the same number of games before reaching the 1/4 finals. That means Kilkenny won't be more or less automatically in an AI semi-final, Galway get much needed games and the Munster teams have it (to listen to themselves) a little easier but still get competitive games.

Stevecw

Seems the relegation games are going ahead as planned!

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2009/0717/relegation.html

RTÉ Sport can exclusively reveal that the controversial issue of relegation from the Senior Hurling Championship has been put to bed.

An Coiste Bainistí for the GAA met at lunchtime today, and a Croke Park official has told RTÉ Sport that the play-off matches involving Wexford, Antrim, Offaly and Clare, which were initially postponed until 25 July, will go ahead.

The decision is likely to draw opposition from all four counties involved, but particularly from Antrim, who had been guaranteed a three-year spell in the Leinster Championship.

The losers of the play-off series will be relegated to the Christy Ring Cup, making way in the Championship for the second tier title holders, Carlow.