Cyclists on Waterford outer ring road

fricatus

Just thought I'd post in the cycling forum because I'm more interested in hearing cyclists' view on the matter, and not just starting another rant.

Basically I drive the outer ring road in Waterford every other day, and I'm constantly having to move into the overtaking lane because of cyclists. This isn't a major imposition in itself, but it involves slowing right down to a crawl if something is coming from behind.

For anyone who doesn't know the road, it's two lanes in either direction, there's a concrete barrier down the middle, and roundabouts every 7-800 metres.

In addition to that, there's a cycle lane running the length of the road from Butlerstown to Ardkeen (about 10 km in total) and this is the nub of the issue for me. We're constantly hearing various cycling campaigners looking for cycle lanes, yet on a road where they're provided, they're never used! It seems that many cyclists would prefer to use the road, where they're vulnerable to cars and lorries. It's mind boggling!

The only other comment that I would make, is that it seems always to be cyclists in cycling gear who do this. The impression I have, though it could be wrong, is that lads just out for a spin, or going to work, wearing normal clothes, are happy to use the cycle lane.

Any comments folks?

rflynnr

To the OP, this is a subject which has been comprehensively debated on this forum and you may wish to have a look through previous threads for comments. Suffice to say, there are a myriad of reasons for cyclists to avoid some cycle paths which may not be obvious from the perspective of other road users. And, although I realise this sounds counter-intuitive, reasons for avoiding cycle paths include concern for one's own safety.

blorg

Yes, commuters going to work are more like to use the cycle lane.

The government's National Cycle Policy Framework explicitly acknowledges that cycle lanes are unsuitable for groups of cyclists out for a spin and compulsory use is being repealed for this reason among others.

The problem with the cycle lanes is that they are frequently interrupted at junctions where the cyclist has to yield, etc. while they would just be able to continue on the road. They are also too narrow for groups.

Hope this helps.

Cabaal

Cycle paths on the Waterford ORR are extremely poorly designed,n the amount of stopping required by a cyclist is beyond belief.

In addition to this in many areas a cyclist would have to slow to a crawl because of pedestrians, I know I'd be cycling on the road if I was on it.

Captain Havoc

I don't know about the Waterford ring road but on the Kilkenny one I wouldn't use the cycling lane if I'm out on a spin because you can't get any decent speed on it. In my defense there are hard shoulders on either side. Some cycling lanes in Kilkenny aren't suited to the narrow wheels of a road bike due to amount of loose stones etc... on them. Another problem about cycling lanes is that they generally tend to be occupied by pedestrians who make you slow down or jump with fright when I go whizzing past(are pedestrians our cyclists?).

Plus, on many cycle tracks or lanes the surface is appaling and often covered in broken glass or gravel because they never get swept. Read a factoid somewhere that your 14 times more likely to get a p*ncture on a cycle lane.

petethedrummer

fricatus wrote: »

We're constantly hearing various cycling campaigners looking for GOOD QUALITY cycle lanes?

Fixed that for you.

Unfortunately, in the vast majority of cases cycling lanes are absolutely terrible in this country. This causes conflict between motorists and cyclists as motorists cannot see why cyclist wouldn't use them and cyclists don't want to use them for self-preservation.

They are so bad in fact that the government have owned up to it and are doing away with the mandatory cycle lane use law.

Of course I don't know what the cycle lane in question is like. It might be grand. Cycle it and report back to us.

petethedrummer

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/11387-0.pdf

15.4 Mandatory Use Regulation
We will revoke the Statutory Instrument that requires cyclists
to use cycle tracks where they are provided - Road Traffic
(Traffic and Parking) Amendment Regulations, S.I. No. 274 (1998).
This regulation is unsatisfactory for a number of reasons:
(i) it is clear that the cycling infrastructure that has been constructed
to date is often of a poor standard and is poorly maintained, and
cyclists are required to use it;
(ii) it can force cyclists to be on cycle tracks and (when they are planning
on continuing straight ahead) to be on the inside of left-turning
vehicles, including Heavy Goods Vehicles;
(iii) if a group of cyclists (on a weekend cycle for example) is using a road
with an off-road cycle-track alongside it, then they are required to use
it – which is not practicable.
DoT

alfalad

Welcome to the cycling forum!

It is a good question you ask and one which I'm sure many drivers do ask but as rflynnr said it is a safety reason.

Cycle tracks are often poorly designed and poorly maintained and in some cases in Dublin are just dangerous and if you are on a track like this you run the risk of damage and punctures from cycling on a surface that has loads of grit/glass etc. Same can be said of hard shoulders on many roads, therefore leaving us roadies with little option. Although if the hard should is clean and free of debris (not often the case and i have come across a dead dog clearly just dumped from a moving vehicle in the hard shoulder before) then this would be the preferred choice, although again as said what may look clean from broken glass etc from the car is not clean when you are cycling.
Research shows very few cyclists are hit from behind as when they are in the line of traffic they have a presence on the road. Therefore it is safer for them.

As said there are many posts with a variety of reasons, but they all come back to safety!

Vélo

Does anyone know if a date has been set regarding the use of cycling lanes? ie when they won't be considered manditory.

seamus

fricatus wrote: »

It seems that many cyclists would prefer to use the road, where they're vulnerable to cars and lorries. It's mind boggling!

Vulnerable in theory, but safer in practice. Studies have shown that cyclists are more at risk from impacts when they're separated from the traffic flow than when they're in it. This is because vehicles turning into or out of a side road are less likely to account for cyclists on a cycle lane than they are to account for cyclists who are on the road.

Rear impacts only account for 5% of all bike/vehicle collsions, and usually occur when the cyclist moves into the traffic flow without due care or consideration.

petethedrummer

Vélo wrote: »

Does anyone know if a date has been set regarding the use of cycling lanes? ie when they won't be considered manditory.

Before the end of the year.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60948443&postcount=19

irishmotorist

I think that everybody has summed up the most likely reasons above. Not knowing the particular road or cycle lane, I can't say for definite, but it sounds about right.

Fair play OP for the bring this up in a reasonable manner. Too often these turn into multi-page "them against us threads" because of aggressive frustration being written into posts (on both sides). If convenient, it may be no harm for you take a look along the cycle lane yourself and see what kind of condition it's in. Broken glass, mid-lane lamp posts and lanes disappearing into nowhere aren't uncommon.

petethedrummer

Also, having been on a cycling holiday in Denmark there was never any reason to leave the cycle lanes, because they are designed properly. If they were any good here we'd be stuck to them like sh!t to a blanket.

Usually these threads descend into a Cyclist Vs Motorist debate which is completely pointless. It should be a Road User Vs. Local Authority/Govt/Road Designer dispute.

warrfla

The Cycle lane on the Outer Ring Road is only provided in one direction - go figure that one out.

If you are familiar with Waterford and imagine your cycling in from dunmore via the dunmore road, you then proceed down the outer ring road towards the cork road, passing the tesco store, this is single lane traffic with no cycle lane, when you go through the roundabout and get on to the new stretch of Outer ring Road which the OPis talking about it is two lanes in both directions with a concrete barrier between.

But low and behold where is the cycle lane? oh its on the other side of the concrete barrier and is actually the pedestrian footpath with some bycles painted on the ground, poorly thought out in my opinion and doesnt endear itself to be used by cyclists, there is a sort of 1m wide hard shoulder for most of the road anyway and thats where I try to cycle when I'm on that road. You would constantly have to negotiate the pedestrian crossings and other obstacles at each of the 5 or 6 roundabouts to use the 'Cycle Path'

kenmc

14 posts, and not a single fight yet... this isn't normal lads.

Anyway....

fricatus wrote:

I'm constantly having to move into the overtaking lane because of cyclists. This isn't a major imposition in itself, but it involves slowing right down to a crawl if something is coming from behind.

.
Erm that's exactly what the overtaking lane is for - overtaking slower moving traffic (which is what cyclists are - traffic) - it would be the same for a learner driver, or a tractor.

kensutz

I cycle on the road regularly and will never use the cycling lane. Like someone said, you can't get a decent speed on it and it's just more of an inconvenience with regular stopping instead of getting around the roundabouts in a quick manner.

Quigs Snr

As previously documented my concerns with the cycle lane come in the form of safety. Especially at night where groups of us training could be approaching some very high speeds in the dark on what is essentially a wide footpath shared with pedestrians, joggers and dog walkers in inclement conditions, often with the street lights turned off. (In addition to this they expect you to use it in both directions. Morons)

Also, for anyone who has never seen this road its not a cycle lane as you would know it.. It is just a footpath.

See this picture of the nationals in 2007...

http://www.comeraghcc.com/ImageGallery/details.php?image_id=1071

Ignore the path on the left that stops after 100m well before the overhead bridge. The one on the right is the "cycle lane". Don't laugh now. Its got kerbs at the roundabouts every few hundred metres (similar to the one in front of the dropped rider on the left), it has seams with grass growing out of them every 10 yards and is absolutely and comprehensively covered in dog poo half the time. Try going down that at 60kph on a set of Zipps with people pushing prams, walking dogs, jogging and cycling in both directions (Gets quite busy on nice evenings in the summer that way).

Needless to say, in our club we refuse to use it.

Lumen

See, this is what happens when someone comes to the cycling forum and raises an issue in a reasonable, detailed, grammatically correct manner.

Questions are answered, perspectives are exchanged. All hell doesn't break loose.

Never has Friday seemed to far away. Down with this sort of thing.

Colmhayden76

I am involved in the other Waterford based cycling club and I must echo Quigs on this
@OP If you were walking your dog/child or even just yourself and a group of lycra clad people came steaming along the footpath(which is what it is) at 40 kmh would you feel secure?

Now reverse that, If you were on a bike doing 40kmh on the 'path' what do you think your options would be if you came around a corner to meet some one walking their dog off the lead?

It is a very real possability that some one from either the walking or cycling side could be seriously injured.

That's why the more dedicated cyclists( and I use that term not to cause offence) ride on the road.

Look the council put hopscotch markers on the path so they do not have cyclists intrests at heart .

Lumen

Colmhayden76 wrote: »

@OP If you were walking your dog/child or even just yourself and a group of lycra clad people came steaming along the footpath(which is what it is) at 40 kmh would you feel secure?

Now reverse that, If you were on a bike doing 40kmh on the 'path' what do you think your options would be if you came around a corner to meet some one walking their dog off the lead?

The reasonable counter argument to this is that cyclists (like car drivers) should not expect to drive at maximum physically possible speed at all times, but choose a speed appropriate to the conditions.

The road between Kingswood and Lucan sounds similar to this Waterford one. Two lanes each way, concrete divider, separate cycle lane.

I use the road, on the basis that the road is usually quiet and cars can easily overtake, but if the traffic was very heavy and fast I'd be inclined to use the cycle lane (though not without much grumbling) or take a different route.

Speed differentials are hazardous.

Colmhayden76

I know that 2 Comeragh cyclists were pulled up by the law for cycling on that road last winter. Quigs might be able to dig out that post off their website.

1 of the main problems on that stretch is actually turning off it as the round abouts are incredably fast and cars take them in either lane regardless of wether they are turning or not. With the club we try to avoid being on the road that much but some times we have no choice. I have on many occasions looked at my computer which has said 44 kmh on some stretches and 56kmh on others. The road in question is deeply flawed for all users not just cyclists. It was a rush job with a 60 kmh speed limit on a dual carrage way with no hard shoulders, disapearing foothpaths and maze like crossings at each roundabout. It is the ideal road to match the statment that the cycle lanes in this country are flawed.

Quigs Snr

I was one of the cyclists pulled Colm. We just continued to ride on home up the road (not least because we would have had to climb a concrete divider to get to the cycle path). The Garda was just doing his job so we didn't get into a heated fight, but on that particular night half the road was pitch dark as the lights were off, so when we pointed out that we were likely to kill someone on the path (a couple of joggers were going past with their heads down at the time which was helpful in illustrating my point), he just shrugged his shoulders and left us off. At that point he was more interested in my colleagues lack of a front light, which had fallen off and broken into 20 pieces 1 mile earlier - thankfully we had the fragments as evidence. I avoid that road in general but when we are on it we pass Garda all the time and they don't seem to care. Look at the Tri club (Waterford and Carrick) both of whom run parts of their weekly TT series on that road.

For the non-Waterfordians, this is all probably hard to visualise. The road is not at all busy, even at rush hour, its absolutely nothing compared to Dublin or indeed most other towns and cities and is in fact probably the safest cycling road in the town due to its width, low speed limit, smooth surface and general lack of blind corners (assuming you don't do something silly on the roundabouts and follow the rules of the road).

In contrast here is a picture of a Garda mounting the path again after a roundabout at the recent bikeweek...

http://www.comeraghcc.com/ImageGallery/details.php?image_id=3149

and heres another one of another roundabout. See those yellow patches on the Island there and on the ramps.. thats there for grip, for pedestrians, its small semi circles less than perhaps 1cm tall and it is all over the pathway. Try get over those on ultrathin race tires on a greasy wet day at any speed. Wouldn't be too hard to find yourself falling into the middle of the road as a car comes blind around the roundabout and straight over your head (This is one of the wider roundabouts so the car might see you, on most of the others the crossing point is almost on the roundabout itself so there would be no chance).

http://www.comeraghcc.com/ImageGallery/details.php?image_id=3162

I have to give credit to the designers. It was a good idea and one that we were all excited about but the execution failed to match the promise.