Was i Shafted???Need your help..

Dazzler88

last week the gearbox went in my car.So i got it replaced,the job cost me around 600euro(Labour&Parts),everything was grand until last night i couldnt get a gear.I went back to the garage and they said it must be the clutch.They said they would have to take out the gearbox again and replace the clutch.Should this mechanic not have looked at the clutch when he had the gearbox out last week.Now im going to be charged double labour for taking it out last week and taking it out again today.Was this guy making a quick buck??How do i know he didnt see the clutch was going last week and thought he'd put it back in and get my money again this week???any suggestions???

Anan1

Unless the clutch was clearly in very good condition i'd have thought the sensible thing to do would have been to replace it when the gearbox was out. Kind of like doing the water pump when the timing belt's off.

Dazzler88

Anan1 wrote: »

Kind of like doing the water pump when the timing belt's off.

my thoughts exactly but what can i do now.if i make an issue of it,he'll say you asked me to replace the gearbox not the clutch.Its going to cost another 200euro labour now.

preilly79

if it is indeed the clutch, and the mechanic didn't spot it, I'd say he's either blind or useless and you should take your business elsewhere.

Dazzler88

preilly79 wrote: »

if it is indeed the clutch, and the mechanic didn't spot it,

the excuse he used is that my old gearbox must have put pressure on the clutch and that it was just a Conquincidence that it went after he had the gearbox in.

ronaneire

Did you bring it to a garage or a gearbox centre? If it was a gearbox specialist they would normally suggest that the clutch be replaced.
€600 aint too cheap, what did he say was the problem with your gearbox?
There could be a number of reasons why your not getting gears and I wouldn't just base it on the clutch.

niceirishfella

ronaneire wrote: »

Did you bring it to a garage or a gearbox centre? If it was a gearbox specialist they would normally suggest that the clutch be replaced.
€600 aint to cheap, what did he say was the problem with your gearbox?
There could be a number of reasons why your not getting gears and I wouldn't just base it on the clutch.

emmmmmmmm wrong, €600 to supply and fit a GB, not an overcharging issue.

ronaneire

niceirishfella wrote: »

emmmmmmmm wrong, €600 to supply and fit a GB, not an overcharging issue.

emmmm not really, op didn't say what make and model of car. Was it a rercon gearbox or a secondhand one. Did I mention anything about over charging?

Dazzler88

ronaneire wrote: »

Was it a rercon gearbox or a secondhand one.

it was a secondhand gearbox and i got it done with my local garage(not a dealership).It was for a VW Golf Mark IV.im just so pissed off that it had to go and to add insult to injury i have my NCT on thursday.

ronaneire

I would be too, what is to say the problem is not with the secondhand box and not your clutch! Try get a second opinion on it.

Dazzler88

ronaneire wrote: »

I would be too, what is to say the problem is not with the secondhand box and not your clutch! Try get a second opinion on it.

thats an idea but the only thing is the clutch is them Golfs are behind the gearbox so im going to have get it taken out either way.Also i think its the clutch because the car will go into gear no problem when the car is switched off but when the engine is running and the clutch is engaged that when theres a problem.

Darragh29

Give us the make, model, year, engine size & fuel type OP...

Dazzler88

Darragh29 wrote: »

Give us the make, model, year, engine size & fuel type OP...

its a 99 VW GOLF 1.9 SDI(Diesel).why do you want that??

niceirishfella

ronaneire wrote: »

emmmm not really, op didn't say what make and model of car. Was it a rercon gearbox or a secondhand one. Did I mention anything about over charging?

ronan, you said "€600 aint too cheap"? Go figure?

niceirishfella

Dazzler88 wrote: »

its a 99 VW GOLF 1.9 SDI(Diesel).why do you want that??

Doubt it was a new GB so.
Did you get a breakdown of the bill?

Darragh29

Dazzler88 wrote: »

its a 99 VW GOLF 1.9 SDI(Diesel).why do you want that??

So I can work out what type of clutch system is in your car, whether it has a hydraulically operated clutch or a mechanical clutch cable system, whether it has a concentric slave cylinder type actuation system or a conventional clutch fork and clutch slave cylinder actuation system... So then I can advise you properly...

Dazzler88

niceirishfella wrote: »

Doubt it was a new GB so.
Did you get a breakdown of the bill?

If you look in previous posts it was a secondhand box.im not worried that i was overcharged just think that the garage should take some responsiblity for giving me back my car as roadworthy when it wasnt(the clutch went 3 days after i got it back)

cashmni1

€600 for a gearbox replacement second hand or not, is a fair price and anything less would be considered cheap. Its heavy work.
Wait for Darragh29's assesment.

Delta Kilo

I know someone that replaced a gearbox in a Passat. They bought a second hand one. It went a few days after and it turned out that the gearbox was shipped dry and the person that fitted it thought it had all fluids in it already!

Interceptor

€600 to supply and fit a 'box is not bad - I paid €600 just to have a similar box reconditioned. For your mech not recommend fitting a clutch while the box was out was careless and for it to fail so soon I'd suggest was incompetence. You weren't shafted and I doubt you have been set up but your mechanic may not have done a very good job putting everything together.

There is also the possibility that you can't drive and your bad clutch technique destroyed the gearbox and subsequently tore out the clutch. I don't know...

'cptr

Dazzler88

Darragh29 wrote: »

clutch slave cylinder actuation system... So then I can advise you properly...

it is a slave cylinder system.does this help you???

Darragh29

Well here's my 2 cents worth...

To replace the clutch in this car while also doing the gearbox would have cost you an extra 200 Euro maximum I think. That's to replace the 3 piece clutch assembly (pressure plate, clutch disc and release bearing)... I think the clutch on your car is a funny VW type clutch that is known in the trade as a "back to front" type clutch, it might only have 2 pieces in it but it is still just a conventional type clutch that would normally cost you around 150 Euro I think... Either way I think a good guide price would be around 150 Euro to replace it, maybe with a bit of extra labour involved and VAT, 200 Euro maximum to replace the clutch here, probably less though...

Now my advice to you would have been (strongly), to replace the complete clutch kit while the gearbox was out. I'd be giving this advice to cover myself, like say if I thought that the clutch could be half way through it's operating life, I'd be advising you that it be changed now on a pre-emptive basis. We'd be very clear on this, if the clutch goes within the next two years or two weeks, you're into another 500 odd Euro to sort that out or we can do it now probably for around the 150 Euro mark.

On some cars, Mondeo's, Transits, Focus's, you have to be careful with this because there is a hydraulically operated clutch release mechanism called a CSC (Concentric Slave Cylinder), these guys cost sometimes up to 120 Euro and the other two parts of the clutch kit will set you back possibly 150 Euro, so you're into 300 odd Euro for parts there and these CSC's can start leaking sometimes when disturbed by a gearbox removal... This isn't the case with your car OP, as far as I know your set up is the conventional VW type clutch (it's a funny looking back to front clutch assembly but still a conventional type clutch)... I can't say what you should have been advised to do here as a certainty, but I can say that if you were dealing with me in relation to this issue, you would have been strongly advised to change the complete clutch assembly at the time.

To make a long story short, I'd always strongly advise the replacement of a full 3 piece kit when a gearbox is out, but I've been accused in the past of trying to just run up a bill. Here's an example...

Darragh: I'd strongly advise you to replace the clutch kit while we can get at it, just in case there could be a problem with it within the next 24 months....

Customer: Well what are the chances of it going, like can you give me a figure for probability?

Darragh: No I can't, that's why I'm advising you to replace it now...

Customer: But it could in theory last another 5 years, couldn't it?

Darragh: Yes it could and it could go next week...

Customer: Can you give me a price for replacing the clutch on it's own....

Darragh: Off the top of my head around 500 Euro...

Customer: Can you give me a more accurate price please?

30 minutes later, looking up part numbers, labour times, getting onto supplier to get prices...

Darragh: Including VAT, parts & labour, 527.87 Euro.

Customer: Ah I'll take a chance on it, just leave the old clutch in there for the time being!

This is genuinely what you are up against when doing clutch and gearbox work. You try to help your customer and you try to protect your reputation by solving problems pre-emptively but often your advise is just not taken seriously and you are often accused on high stools of being a rip off merchant, purely on the basis of trying to solve problems before they become problems.

I've had situations in the past where I've been doing a gearbox replacement for a woman (men also, but this happens more often with women who think I'm trying to rip them off), their husband, brother or some male with a put on macho accent will turn up unannounced wanting to see the clutch in position and make a decision on whether to replace it or not. He hasn't seen a clutch before, he knows nothing about a clutch, but I've to spend 40 minutes listening to him, explaining to him what a clutch does and how it works, for him to be able to make a decision on whether I should replace the clutch or not.

I've had it in the past where I advised the customer to replace the clutch when the gearbox was out and then a month later they were back for a new clutch and I was told, "but you didn't advise me STRONGLY ENOUGH to replace the clutch"!!!

Dazzler88

Darragh29 wrote: »

"but you didn't advise me STRONGLY ENOUGH to replace the clutch"!!!

thanks for the advice,pity i didnt have you as a mechanic.my mechanic didnt even say the clutch might need replacing.

Darragh29

Dazzler88 wrote: »

thanks for the advice,pity i didnt have you as a mechanic.my mechanic didnt even say the clutch might need replacing.

Well I can't say that he should have told you to change it. All I can say is that I'd have strongly you to change it, but I had customers who came to be because this is how I operated and they trusted me and understood that I tried to solve problems pre-emptively wherever I could, I'm sure I've also lost customers who came to the conclusion that I was just overpricing work and trying to run up a bill...

Think about how difficult this is, say your mechanic had advised you to replace the clutch (I fully accept that he didn't in this instance), and you said no I can't afford it and the clutch lasts another 4 years, you'd be probably suspecting that he was just out to make a bit more money off you and not without basis, as someone who doesn't know the trade...

I ultimately got out of the business and it was mainly due to this kind of hassle that my decision to get out was based on.

ronaneire

niceirishfella wrote: »

ronan, you said "€600 aint too cheap"? Go figure?

It is not too cheap now, as now it is not working. Having spoken to someone in the trade (gearbox specialist) He more then likely would have repaired the old box, depending on what was wrong and repalced the clutch as he always recommends it. Makes common sense.
OP if I was you I wouldn't be paying full labour for having the clutch fitted.

Darragh29

ronaneire wrote: »

It is not too cheap now, as now it is not working. Having spoken to someone in the trade (gearbox specialist) He more then likely would have repaired the old box, depending on what was wrong and repalced the clutch as he always recommends it. Makes common sense.
OP if I was you I wouldn't be paying full labour for having the clutch fitted.

I think it's fair to say that most mechanics will agree that it is best practice to replace a clutch when doing a gearbox, especially where the clutch has not been recently replaced. Ultimately the decision rests with the bill payer but for the bill payer to be able to make the decision, they have to be advised accordingly which hasn't happened here it would seem...

ronaneire

OP were you asked by your mechanic did you want to have the clutch replaced at anytime that the gearbox was being changed?

Dazzler88

ronaneire wrote: »

OP were you asked by your mechanic did you want to have the clutch replaced at anytime that the gearbox was being changed?

no not once.he said the problem was with the gearbox(it was rattling in reverse and popping out of gear),so i asked would a new gearbox solve this and he said ya definetly.Im not a moaning person usually but its just frustrating.

niceirishfella

ronaneire wrote: »

It is not too cheap now, as now it is not working

lame response. The OP did'nt pay 600 to still have a problem.:rolleyes:

ronaneire

Dazzler88 wrote: »

no not once.he said the problem was with the gearbox(it was rattling in reverse and popping out of gear),so i asked would a new gearbox solve this and he said ya definetly.Im not a moaning person usually but its just frustrating.

You didn't get a new one though. You got a second gearbox, a reconed unit or your old unit repaired may have been the best option.

niceirishfella wrote: »

lame response. The OP did'nt pay 600 to still have a problem.:rolleyes:

The OP more then likely hear doesn't want to hear you go on about me mentioning €600 was not too cheap for something that is not working. Get over yourself.

Darragh29

OP without identifying the outlet in question, is it a new garage, does it look professional on the outside?

I have this theory that the good quality independents are the ones that put money into the premises and the equipment, they usually have a decent reception/waiting area, nice branded overalls or working gear.

I think there is still an element of independent operator out there that is doing things arseways, no proper protocols for technical decisions, poor customer service, lack of communication with customer, lack of basic facilities, etc. It sounds like this was your experience here, I'm just trying to work out maybe now with the benefit of hindsight could this maybe have been obvious from first impressions with the outlet in question???

Darragh29

Let us know what the outcome is here anyway OP...

niceirishfella

they never do