Help needed please re:PC vs Mac

Mr Alan

A member of my band has asked me to throw this here, any help would be greatly appreciated!

Hi folks

Our band is about to buy a computer for recording demos. We've been asking around about what kind of machine to buy, but have got stuck on whether to go for a Mac or PC. We have come across a super quick PC online that's custom built for audio recording, versus the 24inch imac. Which should we go for?!!

We have a Dynacord Powermate 1600 mixing desk; we anticipate using the pre-amp on that. We need very little I/O functionality on the computer/soundcard because we'll only be recording/overdubbing one track at a time.

We anticipate purchasing pro-tools: cost about €180 it seems.

Option 1: PC

Model: 3XS liteDAW built by 3XS Systems http://3xs.scan.co.uk/ShowSystem.asp?SystemID=906

CPU: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550, 2.83 GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 12MB Cache

RAM: 4GB (2X2GB) Corsair TwinX XMS2, DDR PC2-6400 (800), CAS 5-5-5-18

System drive: 750 GB Samsung Spinpoint F1, 7200 rpm, 32MB Cache

Sound card: M-Audio Audiophile 2496 - 4-in/4-out Audio Card with MIDI and Digital I/O

OS: Microsoft Windows XP Professional 64bit SP2c

Cost: €1,200


Option 2: Mac

Model: 24" imac http://store.apple.com/ie/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac

CPU: 2.66GHz Intel Core 2 Duo

RAM: 4GB

System drive: 640GB

Sound card: sound is built into the imac; a sound card does not come with the imac.

OS:

Cost: €1,400, plus the cost of a good quality sound card suitable for the 24" imac, not exceeding say €200 (any recommendations? is it advisable to purchase a sound card for an imac, or is the onboard sound good enough for recording?)

We can't push any more than the above on cost; there's a 24" 2.93GHz imac, but that starts at €1,700.

The 3XS liteDAW PC seems a really good deal: it's very quick, the sound card has a good reputation and is sufficient for our needs... we don't need an Audio Interface or break-out box because we have the pre-amp in our mixing desk and also we won't be recording more than one track at a time; also it comes with MIDI which is something we'll probably experiment with because we have the use of a electronic drum kit with MIDI functionality.

None of us are used to using macs, but they seem to have a better reputation than PCs in audio recording circles, so if it is better to get the imac, then that's what we'll do.

Thanks in advance!

Neurojazz

If you know how to maintain a PC - then it you get more for your money. Macs are well supported and tend to be less buggy - BUT, if your able to use google and sort niggles out you can get more power/headroom for your money.

Scan gear is excellent and there support better than most form personal experience - Solid builds and they help with trivial queries no problem.

That 3xs system, for a few extra quid and a bios update can take the q9650 i think... gives you even more headroom for a teeny amount of cash

gonzothegreat

Go with th PC, their easier to upgrade. There's not a lot of difference between the 2. The Mac is a little easier to use but over priced.

DamagedTrax

just be careful and check digidesigns compatibility if you do decide on a PC. the first problem that sticks out for me (in your pc configuration) is that protools doesnt support 64bit machines.

Neurojazz

Ah yeah - stay with 32bit OS - very little software is supported with 64bit xp - 32bit xp is fine though.

64bit IS A NIGHTMARE - steer well clear

And it's not just the DAW, but software plugins and hardware drivers are rarely available in 64bit versions.

the_syco

Neurojazz wrote: »

64bit IS A NIGHTMARE - steer well clear

Although I swear by the 64bit XP, I'm a gamer. But as I have often being called to do tech support for a mate, I also will say, when it comes to music production: stay clear of the 64bit XP, as a lot of sound companies don't support it.

Which is a pity, because it'd give you access to more RAM.

dav nagle

[FONT=&quot]Get a Mac:

No Trojans, adware, spyware, virus, drivers, blue screen of death, more powerful memory, very easy to upgrade and ultimately you can run Logic on it if you decide to use both PT 8 and Logic. I have been there with both platforms and go Mac if you want to make music all the time. On the other hand as NeuroJazz said if you are a full time PC maintenance technician you may enjoy the PC platform :eek:[/FONT]

Neurojazz

dav nagle wrote: »

[FONT=&quot]Get a Mac:

No Trojans, adware, spyware, virus, drivers, blue screen of death, more powerful memory, very easy to upgrade and ultimately you can run Logic on it if you decide to use both PT 8 and Logic. I have been there with both platforms and go Mac if you want to make music all the time. On the other hand as NeuroJazz said if you are a full time PC maintenance technician you may enjoy the PC platform :eek:[/FONT]

Yeah, offline music PC don't get viruses, spyware or little programs that send you messages from Davs machine selling porn - actually saying that, i haven't had any spam from you in ages

dav nagle

Neurojazz wrote: »

Yeah, offline music PC don't get viruses, spyware or little programs that send you messages from Davs machine selling porn - actually saying that, i haven't had any spam from you in ages

Ha! Thats my damn laptop!! I do watch a bit sure who doesn't? :cool:

Anima

The processor is a quad in the PC, the Mac's one is a duo, plus the quad is clocked faster.

However, the RAM could be a bit better in the PC. Its not utilising the full 1333mhz FSB of the processor, as its only running at 800mhz. Also I think the CAS timings could be better on the RAM. The Mac's RAM is 1066mhz DDR3 which might even out the performance difference of the two processors somewhat.

If you're not very savvy with computers, I'd probably go with the Mac but if you're trying to save cash, go with the PC.

projectmayhem

I have both a high-end PC and the 24" iMac you want. Now granted I don't do much in the way of sound recording but from the point of view of general use, I would go with the Mac, even though it is more expensive.

The primary reason is that my PC has given me countless problems, even with new hardware. It's a windows thing. Hardware has never been the problem. I don't want my OS crapping out on me if it's a professional set-up. My iMac is on nearly all day, every day, and not once has it even hiccupped. In fact it's rendered my PC an expensive games console.

Mac's are easier to use and less prone to failure, plus the software is usually far more stable on a Mac (that could be OS X handling the memory better though, from my perspective), but as was already said, PC's are easier to upgrade.

For a single, long-term investment I'd go for the Mac over the PC, but if you want/need new sound cards and equipment all the time then get the PC.

studiorat

A quick story and something you might consider. A few years ago a friend of mine was involved in a band. They went out and bought recording gear with the idea of doing their own recording.

They bought it and started work. Six months into the project they fired up the system one morning to discover they had lost all the work. Six months of it fact, gone irretrivable! Needless to say the band broke up pretty soon after that and there was the usual hassle of who actually owned the gear!!!

Neurojazz

studiorat wrote: »

A quick story and something you might consider. A few years ago a friend of mine was involved in a band. They went out and bought recording gear with the idea of doing their own recording.

They bought it and started work. Six months into the project they fired up the system one morning to discover they had lost all the work. Six months of it fact, gone irretrivable! Needless to say the band broke up pretty soon after that and there was the usual hassle of who actually owned the gear!!!

...sh1t happens?

bedbugs

studiorat wrote: »

A quick story and something you might consider. A few years ago a friend of mine was involved in a band. They went out and bought recording gear with the idea of doing their own recording.

They bought it and started work. Six months into the project they fired up the system one morning to discover they had lost all the work. Six months of it fact, gone irretrivable! Needless to say the band broke up pretty soon after that and there was the usual hassle of who actually owned the gear!!!

Moral: back up

Mr Alan

thats for all the advice so far folks!

we're trashing it out amongst ourselves at the minute!

*studiorat, you trying to make me cry?

Neurojazz

On the subject of backups, the scan pcs arrive with Arconis ready installed - it's very easy to ghost the whole system with a few clicks - so once you get a stable install and everything is working run it and back up that system for future disasters.

dav nagle

projectmayhem wrote: »

I have both a high-end PC and the 24" iMac you want. Now granted I don't do much in the way of sound recording but from the point of view of general use, I would go with the Mac, even though it is more expensive.

The primary reason is that my PC has given me countless problems, even with new hardware. It's a windows thing. Hardware has never been the problem. I don't want my OS crapping out on me if it's a professional set-up. My iMac is on nearly all day, every day, and not once has it even hiccupped. In fact it's rendered my PC an expensive games console.

Mac's are easier to use and less prone to failure, plus the software is usually far more stable on a Mac (that could be OS X handling the memory better though, from my perspective), but as was already said, PC's are easier to upgrade.

For a single, long-term investment I'd go for the Mac over the PC, but if you want/need new sound cards and equipment all the time then get the PC.

We share the same feelings on the debate, fair play.

Neurojazz

dav nagle wrote: »

We share the same feelings on the debate, fair play.

It's strange, my PC is still standing - bug free - all 7 of them ;P

the_syco

bedbugs wrote: »

Moral: back up

+1. If the HDD dies, you're f**ked, no matter what type of computer you have.

=-=

The software will be more stable on a MAC, as the OS for the MAC is esp for that model off MAC. With a PC, you'll have one version of Windows for many many different configurations. Because of this, you'll have a higer chance of getting conflicts. And if you don't know much about PC's, it's almost a certainty.

Because no-one really uses MAC's, there are not alot of virus's made for it. If they become popular, you're all screwed :P

I've heard upgrading your MAC's graphics card is possible, but bloody hard to do, so once all you plan to upgrade is your RAM, CPU, or HDD, a MAC will suit you.

Neurojazz

Even if the hard drive dies it is possible to get the data off - but very expensive... basically an engineer pulls the spindles out and pops them into the same drive body of another unit.

There are also some bizarre fixes for duff drives, but only to be done if desperate!

studiorat

Neurojazz wrote: »

There are also some bizarre fixes for duff drives, but only to be done if desperate!

Only once I had a drive fail. So I stuck it in the freezer and it worked!!!

Discs contracted and freed themselves ya see.

Neurojazz

studiorat wrote: »

Only once I had a drive fail. So I stuck it in the freezer and it worked!!!

Discs contracted and freed themselves ya see.

I was going to mention stuff like that but didn't want people risking it

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

Only once I had a drive fail. So I stuck it in the freezer and it worked!!!

Discs contracted and freed themselves ya see.

Really ?

Never heard a that before ....

How long did you leave it ?

Neurojazz

You have to make sure it's in an airtight bag also, or the moisture kills it...

Another fix (not recommended) - if the drive head is locked and the freezing doesn't help you can drop the drive onto a flat surface from about 1/2 feet up and sometimes this jars the heads free (this has worked with laptop drives myself)

The drive worked long enough to boot and rip data off - (after it wouldn't even boot)

Also, simpler solutions include putting the drive in a caddy if the MBR (master boot record) is damaged and you can pull data off that way or fix the MBR remotely.

On a side note - i'm running SSD drives now - feck fast and no heads to jam anymore - but have their own issues which are bizarre, but workable.

egoboo

I started on PC's. Turned to mac now. I have a pretty stable system. PT's has never crashed in 3 years. Logic 8 on the other hand is still buggy and probably will be forever ! But its a great DAW for the money with endless amounts of sounds, therefore I'd go for the mac.

Mr Alan

ok, got an email from our drummer.....see below (please excuse the explaining of probably very mundane things in it, we're pretty clueless for the most part!;))

This is what I propose as our new DAW (digital audio workstation):

computer: imac 24-inch, 2.93GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, cost €1,455

.. I'm proposing this instead of the 2.66GHz machine that costs €1,400 because this is a refurbished machine selling on the Irish apple website: http://store.apple.com/ie/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/imac

I called Apple Ireland and the guy said that refurbished machines are normally cancelled orders.. sounds safe.

The cost of the 2.93GHz machine is normally €1,700.

DAW software: pro-tools LE. cost: you cannot buy pro-tools software on its own. you have to buy a piece of Digidesign hardware... the software is packaged with the hardware. Basically, you have to buy an AI (audio interface), which is a sound card that plugs into a computer's USB port or 'firewire' port and sits on your (physical) desktop.. you then plug stereo jacks, xlrs, or whatever into the AI. Of all soundcards, PCI cards are the best/quickest, however, apple doesn't much like PCI cards, so imacs do not come with PCI slots, which is why we are left with either a USB or firewire AI option. Firewire is better than USB, but more expensive.. you're talking about €650 for the Digidesign (company that makes pro-tools) firewire AI (audio interface), which is called the MBOX 2 Firewire. So, we're left with a USB AI (and USB 1 at that, which is not as good as the USB 2 technology that the imac facilitates.. imac has USB 2 ports... though USB 1 devices work in USB 2 ports as well), but that's ok because we will only be recording one track at a time (not say drums, bass, vocals, 2 guitars, i.e. say 5 tracks ... ie live recording) and so you don't need the greater data transfer capabilities of the firewire or USB 2 technologies.. that's according to a guy in X Music off the M50, who I spoke to on the phone, who sounded like he knew his stuff. The most important part for us re the sound card is the quality of its DAC (audio to digital converter), which are reportedly good on Digidesign's affordable hardware.

So, we can get either the MBox 2, or MBOX 2 Mini if we are to purchase pro-tools.

I would like to go for the MBox 2, not the mini (which is €100 cheaper), cause for one thing the MBox 2 has MIDI capabilities which I would like to potentially make drum recording easier. It also has more knobs and bits and bobs and more user reviews online to evaluate it.

Here are some user reviews: http://www.zzounds.com/productreview--DGDMB2

Here's a magazine review: http://digitalcontentproducer.com/soundforpic/revfeat/video_digidesign_mbox_pro/

Practially all the sub €700 AI/soundcards have user reviews ranging from "this is the best product I've ever bought" to "this is the worst product I've ever bought". The MBox 2 rates awfully on product support, but (most importantly I think) it aces on sound quality.

Cost: €315 for the MBOX 2 (inclusive of Pro-tools LE) plus postage to Ireland say about €15 http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/product/7550-digidesign-mbox-2-now-includes-protools-le-8-via-download-.html

By the way, if we were not to get pro-tools we'd still have to get a soundcard or AI. From what I've checked out online, we'd be looking at about €200 for a decent one if we're to purchase the imac.

Cost for everything then would be say €1,780

any obvious pitfalls there folks?
or are we good to go?:D

DamagedTrax

DAW software: pro-tools LE. cost: you cannot buy pro-tools software on its own. you have to buy a piece of Digidesign hardware... the software is packaged with the hardware

thats not true. you can buy LE for 150 without hardware from most places. whoever told you that is trying to get a sle out of you.

dav nagle

Mr Alan wrote: »

ok, got an email from our drummer.....see below (please excuse the explaining of probably very mundane things in it, we're pretty clueless for the most part!;))



any obvious pitfalls there folks?
or are we good to go?:D

The pitfall in that setup is the mbox because they really don't sound good at all. The thing is, you could use Pro Tools with the mbox and buy a better pre amp in time. Your right though you need a protools hardwared device to use protools so it's a good starting point. The mbox are hissy and lacks headroom but if you keep everything below 'the hiss' level you will be grand.

the_syco

I called Apple Ireland and the guy said that refurbished machines are normally cancelled orders.. sounds safe.

Dunno about Apple's repair shop, but most refurbs in my experience were machines that experienced faults in the first few days of the user having the computer, getting fixed, and sold on. Most of the times, it's okay, but I've had to deal with a lot of refurbs which, surprise surprise, experienced the same problem again.

=-=

Also, the only hardware you need with pro-tools is the dongle (small usb-stick-like device)to allow it to work, which comes with the software.

DamagedTrax

the_syco wrote: »

Also, the only hardware you need with pro-tools is the dongle (small usb-stick-like device)to allow it to work, which comes with the software.

not true either. where do you guys get all your misinformation from???

protools HD/TDM needs digidesign hardware.

protools LE needs digidesign hardware (002, 003, 003+ or any of the mbox range) but the software is sold seperatly aswell as bundled.

protools m-powered needs an ilok dongle and an m-audio interface. a demo version comes with most m-audio interfaces and the full version can be bought seperatly.

PaulBrewer

http://www.pcworld.com/article/159521/10_ways_microsofts_retail_stores_will_differ_from_apple_stores.html?tk=rel_news

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

http://www.pcworld.com/article/159521/10_ways_microsofts_retail_stores_will_differ_from_apple_stores.html?tk=rel_news

Microsoft Store personnel will allow the user to select the products and way of using them that they want, instead of acting like evangelical fanatics about the superiority of their box.

:pac::p:pac::p

PaulBrewer

I hope my contribution is useful, Alan ?

Mr Alan

Cheers Paul.

Message, loud & clear!

Mr Alan

Ordered the mac lads. thanks for all your help.

bedbugs

PaulBrewer wrote: »

http://www.pcworld.com/article/159521/10_ways_microsofts_retail_stores_will_differ_from_apple_stores.html?tk=rel_news

genius

ICN

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ordered the mac lads. thanks for all your help.

Best of luck with it Man.. You'll love it!