Graffiti, is it an art or just vandalism?

Run_to_da_hills

I thought that I should start a fresh thread on this subject as I thought best not to hijack the thread on 25th anniversary of Dart.

Graffiti is probably the bain of almost every transit company in the world including IR/Dart. Although it is very rare to see a train "tagged" in Ireland unless it has been left abandoned for some time in some yard or siding.

I mentioned in an other thread that much of the Graffiti is not on IR or Dart property, such as Blackrock baths, various exterior walls and factory gable ends that are backed up on to the railway.

I have seen some amassing examples of Graffiti in on the Continent, particularly the Netherlands, Australia and the US. If its done right it can look quite spectacular, if its amateurish can be just an eyesore. I am a great fan of the London artist Banksy and have seen some of his work.

The following link gives some of examples of track side Graffiti around Dublin.
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MID=367137231&MemberId=2135053794

Terrontress

Well it is definitely vandalism. The people doing it have no authorisation to alter the train's appearance. Quite often the vandals don't let a window get in the way of their painting and cover the thing over.

As for it being art, well a lot of it requires skill and can be aesthetically pleasing. But who is to be the judge of that? There is as much rubbish as there is skilled painting.

So the only thing to do is to try to eradicate it.

kmart6

It is vandalism...however it can be art if there is meaning behind it!

Nostradamus

kmart6 wrote: »

It is vandalism...however it can be art if there is meaning behind it!

It's can be both. Mostly it is just vandalism. But sometimes it is art of the highest calling and deserves respect.


Fact is, that it is the oldest human artform.



This is the cave paintings of today:

kmart6

Nostradamus wrote: »

It's can be both.

That's what I said!

booyah1024

graffiti is art.

graffiti is vandalism when it's done on non-authorised property.

tagging is not graffiti, it's just **** and is vandalism as well.

Judgement Day

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I thought that I should start a fresh thread on this subject as I thought best not to hijack the thread on 25th anniversary of Dart.

Graffiti is probably the bain of almost every transit company in the world including IR/Dart. Although it is very rare to see a train "tagged" in Ireland unless it has been left abandoned for some time in some yard or siding.

I mentioned in an other thread that much of the Graffiti is not on IR or Dart property, such as Blackrock baths, various exterior walls and factory gable ends that are backed up on to the railway.

I have seen some amassing examples of Graffiti in on the Continent, particularly the Netherlands, Australia and the US. If its done right it can look quite spectacular, if its amateurish can be just an eyesore. I am a great fan of the London artist Banksy and have seen some of his work.

The following link gives some of examples of track side Graffiti around Dublin.
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MID=367137231&MemberId=2135053794

Some of the comments on that Bebo link say enough for me about the mentality of the illiterate pond life who are defacing Ireland. It must take a lot of effort for some of them to manage to stand on their hind legs let alone spray paint on something.

dermo88

I'm inclined to agree with Nostradamus example in the case of his display being art. Tagging is not art, its just someone scribbling their name up, although depending on the style, it can be artistic.

But generally, I think its vandalism where its not officially wanted or sanctioned.

ToTheSea:

If it's good- art
If it's bad - vandalism

Where's the line? It's all opinion. However imo I believe tagging is sh1t but well thought out pieces of graffitti can be awe inspiring and improve the look of a very banal wall/train.
Its a very grey area.

Cookie_Monster

Poll perhaps?

IMO its just vandalism now matter how good it is.
Even that banksy guy should be done for it.

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Poll perhaps?.

Done.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

IMO its just vandalism now matter how good it is.
Even that banksy guy should be done for it.

Wesrminister County council made a big mistake removing one of Banksy's masterpieces from a wall opposite the GPO. It wasn't even on county council property. It became a tourist attraction over night until it was removed because it was an embarrisment. Some of Banksy work has fetehed thusands.



More of Banksys work.
http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/75/m_bcd056a9c6697659ab2a0120b86b4b1c.jpg&imgrefurl=http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser.viewPicture%26friendID%3D191247870%26albumId%3D1427683&usg=__IHRBGzw2kHtpaGcDOv5LI94R_c0=&h=168&w=170&sz=9&hl=en&start=10&um=1&tbnid=apHeQGkLE3nPoM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=99&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbamksy%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1R2ADBF_en%26sa%3DG%26um%3D1

Zoney

Vandalism and art are not mutually exclusive. As far as I'm concerned there should be zero tolerance of unauthorised graffiti regardless of whether it is of sufficient quality or subject to truly be art. Indeed "authorised" graffiti if there is such a thing can't even just be permission from a building owner - it would need to adhere to any regulations there might be.

Ignoring "minor" law breaking such as graffiti merely encourages lawlessness. At the very least it should be regularly eradicated, as anywhere with graffiti tends to attract more - just as litter attracts more litter (one part of the puzzle in cleaning up our filthy country would be more prevalent and systematic council clean-up, some litterers at least will be less likely to drop litter on a clean street than one with mountains of litter on it already).

Run_to_da_hills

I used to skateboard on the main road and footpath, The authorities couldn't do much to stop me because there was no where else to practice. It was not until the local councils started to build official skateboard parks that they could strictly enforce the law. Likewise with graffiti, if they designated similar areas where artists could work away they could concentrate on preventing them using unauthorized places. Blackrock Baths would be an ideal location because the building itself is an eyesore and I cannot see too much being done with it in the immediate future.

MOH

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I used to skateboard on the main road and footpath, The authorities couldn't do much to stop me because there was no where else to practice. It was not until the local councils started to build official skateboard parks that they could strictly enforce the law. Likewise with graffiti, if they designated similar areas where artists could work away they could concentrate on preventing them using unauthorized places. Blackrock Baths would be an ideal location because the building itself is an eyesore and I cannot see too much being done with it in the immediate future.

Not sure I follow that logic. I used to murder people in random locations and there wasn't much the authorities could do to stop me because they hadn't designated a specific "murder zone". If they did, I'd do all my murdering there and they could strictly enforce the law elsewhere.

caspa307

its much easier to get forgiveness then it is to get permission......


some graffiti is art some isnt when i was 15 we went through a stage of tagging! some gomie i was lol


but i can do a fair decent dub aswell which i consider personally to be quite good, on shop shutters after being asked and paid to do lol,

trustno1

MOH wrote: »

Not sure I follow that logic. I used to murder people in random locations and there wasn't much the authorities could do to stop me because they hadn't designated a specific "murder zone". If they did, I'd do all my murdering there and they could strictly enforce the law elsewhere.

I think comparing Skateboarding\Graffiti to Murder is a bit OTT :rolleyes:.. I totally agree that they should assign designated areas for some of these 'artists' to show off their talent.. I personally love Banksy's work (going to head over to Bristol for his exhibition) as its thought provoking and can be hilarious at the same time.

Irish and Proud

Graffiti is definitely an art if done properly. However, the biggest problem with graffiti is its placement - along the Dart line, there are many good works of Graffiti, but on many occasions, the lettering is either too small (not using the entire canvas - full wall height) or very poorly placed (too high on the wall for example) so that it doesn't fit in properly with its surrounds. IMO, a very good example of graffiti done well is the large "CISTO" logo located at the train marshalling yard south of pearse station. The "DCW" logo (same location) also looks good, especially with the use of a blue background to blend it in.

What do others think?

Regards!

Irish and Proud

Nostradamus wrote: »

WOW!

That's deadly man!!!

Judgement Day

Irish and Proud wrote: »

WOW!

That's deadly man!!!

Yeah, but it's no good unless it is daubed over a Martello tower or some other relic of British oppression - or the gable end of a private house!

shenanigans1982

Same as most people I think it's both. When Smithfield was being redeveloped a lot of graffiti was done on the hoarding surrounding the main square....not sure if it was official or not but some of the art was really good. As RTDH said there should be some places made available for graffitti but because it has an underground element to it I can't see it happening.

Tagging on the other hand is just vandalism and anyone caught spraying 'Anto woz ere' or anything along those lines deserve a hefty fine.

Judgement Day

This piece - apparently from a Dail speech by 'gormless' Gormley when he was in opposition - the lack of follow through says it all about the Greens in Government!

Green Party stokes Graffiti hysteria and calls for repressive measures
national | environment | feature Friday June 16, 2006 10:49 by Noise Hacker Indymedia
Is the writing on the wall for Graffiti? Green Party T.D. John Gormley has called for sweeping measures to stop the “serious problem” of graffiti. Namely:
The introduction of specific legislation to deal with the offence of graffiti/street art
The establishment of a Special Garda Graffiti Unit to target artists
Rewards to be offered for tip-offs on Taggers
Community service orders
A Graffiti Hotline
Revoking the driving licences of graffiti artists
Banning the sale of spray paint to minors as well as banning the possession of spray paint in public place.
“If you want to know what is actually occurring inside, underneath, at the center, at any given moment, art is a truer guide than politics, more often than not.” - Percy Windham Lewis (1884-1957)
Deputy Gormley also asked “why have we seen an upsurge in graffiti throughout Dublin? We cannot afford to underestimate the extent of this problem.”
In response to Mr. Gormley, Justice Minister Mr. McDowell (standing in for his colleague the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche) replied, “The constituency Deputy Gormley and I share has been under sustained attack in recent times. It seems to be spreading everywhere.” He also went on to say “Somebody, on doing a little research, should be able to track down where the major sales of spray paint are taking place and to whom it is being sold.”
Transcription of Dail Eireann Speech on Graffiti (8 Jun 2006)
http://www.greenparty.ie/en/in_the_dail/speeches/8_jun_...ffiti

Scoobydoobydoo

booyah1024 wrote: »

graffiti is art.

graffiti is vandalism when it's done on non-authorised property.

tagging is not graffiti, it's just **** and is vandalism as well.

My thoughts exactly.

Paparazzo

I love good graffiti. You rarely see it in Dublin though, Grift tags are rubbish. And even if there's too much good graffiti it can still make a place look like a dump.

the_syco

Judgement Day wrote: »

He also went on to say “Somebody, on doing a little research, should be able to track down where the major sales of spray paint are taking place and to whom it is being sold.”

Maybe 10 years ago, but I'd say a good few people find it cheaper to get their paint online now.

Run_to_da_hills

Judgement Day wrote: »

This piece - apparently from a Dail speech by 'gormless' Gormley when he was in opposition - the lack of follow through says it all about the Greens in Government!

Green Party stokes Graffiti hysteria and calls for repressive measures
national | environment | feature Friday June 16, 2006 10:49 by Noise Hacker Indymedia
Is the writing on the wall for Graffiti? Green Party T.D. John Gormley has called for sweeping measures to stop the “serious problem” of graffiti. Namely:
The introduction of specific legislation to deal with the offence of graffiti/street art
The establishment of a Special Garda Graffiti Unit to target artists
Rewards to be offered for tip-offs on Taggers
Community service orders
A Graffiti Hotline
Revoking the driving licences of graffiti artists
Banning the sale of spray paint to minors as well as banning the possession of spray paint in public place.
“If you want to know what is actually occurring inside, underneath, at the center, at any given moment, art is a truer guide than politics, more often than not.” - Percy Windham Lewis (1884-1957)
Deputy Gormley also asked “why have we seen an upsurge in graffiti throughout Dublin? We cannot afford to underestimate the extent of this problem.”
In response to Mr. Gormley, Justice Minister Mr. McDowell (standing in for his colleague the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche) replied, “The constituency Deputy Gormley and I share has been under sustained attack in recent times. It seems to be spreading everywhere.” He also went on to say “Somebody, on doing a little research, should be able to track down where the major sales of spray paint are taking place and to whom it is being sold.”
Transcription of Dail Eireann Speech on Graffiti (8 Jun 2006)
http://www.greenparty.ie/en/in_the_dail/speeches/8_jun_...ffiti

The recent local elections showed up the true colours of these guys.

heone

to be honest i think this thread is pointless, whether you argue about whether it's art or vandalism or not it's still going to get done, all you can do really is clean as much of it as you can and hope it doesn't come back. most writers find it hilarious that people get so touchy about the subject and do it more to piss yous all off.
personally i think it's hilarious.

CIE

heone wrote: »

to be honest i think this thread is pointless, whether you argue about whether it's art or vandalism or not it's still going to get done

False. Would you like a before and after?

And they never reverted, up until their retirement. Their successors did not fall victim to that mess either.

heone wrote: »

all you can do really is clean as much of it as you can and hope it doesn't come back. most writers find it hilarious that people get so touchy about the subject and do it more to piss yous all off.
personally i think it's hilarious

That's because you are immature and have not grown up yet. When a backlash comes, it's usually not of the very pleasant variety. The above example is of the pleasant variety.

Oh_Noes

Even when it's bad it's good. I can read a poorly scrawled name whereas there's no satisfaction in looking at a blank wall unless I've just cleaned it for some reason.

Every mark is a record of person, time, place and is unique. I'm often grateful to the people that scrawled their names somewhere because it might set me off on a daydream as to who that person is and the situation in which they chose to write their name down.

Especially sitting on a train or stuck in traffic under a flyover. The other day in traffic on the Athlone bypass I got stuck under a bridge which was built around the late 80s/90s. I'd never seen the underneath of that bridge before but it was fun to see all the 90s-era metal bands names written.

This one is everywhere, brings me back

Run_to_da_hills

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Especially sitting on a train or stuck in traffic under a flyover. The other day in traffic on the Athlone bypass I got stuck under a bridge which was built around the late 80s/90s. I'd never seen the underneath of that bridge before but it was fun to see all the 90s-era metal bands names written.

This one is everywhere, brings me back

I actually like Metallica, earlier stuff that is

Speaking earlier of the Green Party, "What's the difference between the Green Party and the Dart?" ans "they are both green but at least the Dart has seats" :pac:

SeanW

I'm very much on the fence about this one. I recognise that we have laws for a reason and I feel that where a law is worth having, it should be enforced to the full. However, some of this graffiti clearly is art, which looks very appealing and is an asset to the immediate vicinity. I cite as examples Nostradamus'es example, plus some of what can be seen on that Bebo page.

While I accept that it would cause some level of subjectivity as to what is art and what is vandalism (though clearly a scrawled "Anto woz ere" or "Grift" would fall into the latter category), I wouldn't object to a change in legislation to allow for some post-incident judgement of any reported graffiti work and the retroactive legalisation of any acts of creating that work.

steamengine

On public property, or on someone else's garden wall it may qualify as a work of art. On your own garden wall it is vandalism - subjective indeed !

Cookie_Monster

Regardless of what it is I think it always looks awful and defacing public/private property is just not on.

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Regardless of what it is I think it always looks awful and defacing public/private property is just not on.

I its done by classless idiots like Grift or his copycats I would agree, I always admire humorous Graffiti and posted defacing.

Back in the 80's when stations and bridges were upgraded or the Dart Glenageary station had just installed a new bridge, it had a devision down the middle intending passengers to walk on one side and pedestrians on the other.

Before it was completed passengers could use both sections. It was at the time o South African apartheid and someone had sprayed over stencils on each side, Whites this side non whites other side.

heone

CIE wrote: »

False. Would you like a before and after?

And they never reverted, up until their retirement. Their successors did not fall victim to that mess either.That's because you are immature and have not grown up yet. When a backlash comes, it's usually not of the very pleasant variety. The above example is of the pleasant variety.

trains in new york get painted on the regular, and you'll never get rid of graffiti, fact.

heone

oh and c.i.e. enjoy paying for the buff on all them trains getting done lately

-Chris-

heone, why did you bump this thread after nearly 3 months?

Either post constructively or don't post at all. Posting just to get a reaction is Trolling and against the Charter.

dermo88

I regard Graffiti placed in an area where it is not expressly permitted or wanted as Vandalism. In an area where it is designated for its use, then its art.

Now some may regard this approach as a bit too right wing. Unfortunately, it does act as a deterrent.

Swiss graffiti man faces Singapore caning

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10417167

A Swiss man has been sentenced to five months in jail and three strokes of a cane for spray-painting graffiti on a train in Singapore.

Oliver Fricker, 32, a software consultant, admitted breaking into a depot and vandalising the train.

Judge See Kee Oon said Fricker's actions were "calculated criminal conduct".

"He was fully conscious of the criminal nature of the act and must be prepared to face the consequences," the judge said.
____________________________________________________________

I think the message is clear, that I agree with this. Its an example. On an Irish scale, of course, there will be a psychologist, consultant, and an army of lawyers likely on a legal aid scheme. They will likely argue:

(a) He (Vandal) comes from a decent background and is an artist.

OR

(b) He (Vandal) is an idiot who comes from a disadvantaged background and is a misunderstood genius who cannot afford proper avenues to artistically express themselves.

In either case, the press will have something to say. If the sentence is too lenient, they will complain. If they sentence is too harsh they will also complain. As far as the judiciary is concerned, its "heads they win, tails we lose".

The final point, look at Greece recently. Its a good country with good people, but we see images of Graffiti in it. Its not art, or expression....its vandalism pure and simple.

The lack of respect shown to publicly owned infrastructure is symptomatic of a failed nation and a failed system. It occurs when the people at the top are seen to have lied, and are lying and are not leading a nation and its people by example. Graffiti, I think, is a symptom of an underlying malaise, and is proof of an old fashioned maxim - "The devil makes work for idle minds".

OurLadyofKnock

heone wrote: »

trains in new york get painted on the regular, and you'll never get rid of graffiti, fact.

I prefer the NYC Subway when it had a personality and graffiti all over it.

Victor

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

I prefer the NYC Subway when it had a personality and graffiti all over it.

Perhaps, but it isn't necessarily reassuring to others that one might want to encourage to use public transport.

The photo of the graffitied train above does not create a reassuring image on maintenance or safety (it is possible the train is laid up).

Cookie_Monster

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

I prefer the NYC Subway when it had a personality and graffiti all over it.

the only personality that graffiti implies is scumbag. Can't say I'd prefer that tbh

OurLadyofKnock

Victor wrote: »

Perhaps, but it isn't necessarily reassuring to others that one might want to encourage to use public transport.

The photo of the graffitied train above does not create a reassuring image on maintenance or safety (it is possible the train is laid up).

There are couple of ways at looking at this sure. I agree a lot of people are put off by it. On the other hand it was a part of NYC culture that countless people around the world including myself moved there to be a part of. Personally I thought NYC was heaven on earth when it was sleazy. It had a real energy and buzz. When Rudi and Conservatives came in with Zero Tolerance and tore the living heart out of the city. It might as well be any other US city now. The graffti on the subway was part of the culture which made the city so dynamic back then. Just look at this for beauty and atmosphere:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HfSMKNn_B8&feature=related

Run_to_da_hills

Back in the 70's and early 80's spraying graffiti would have been a major task on any CIE rolling stock, first of all they would have to spend hours on end degreasing and removing any grime from the surface before they could start, by that time the perpetrators would have been caught.

Run_to_da_hills

I see the 8200 Alstom's at Fairview have been recently decorated by artists.

i didn't get a chance to get a shot of them but it probably won't make much odds as they will more than likely be ending up undrer the gas axe.

dmcronin

Looks good IF done well AND in a proper setting.

NOT by the side of the Cobh line and risking a smack of a railcar.

A lot of what's out there are illegible 'tags' with no artistic merit whatsoever.

Run_to_da_hills

dmcronin wrote: »

A lot of what's out there are illegible 'tags' with no artistic merit whatsoever.

Most of the Graffiti in this country is pure rubbish. One of the best graffiti examples that I saw was on a wall at Sandycove Beach a number of years back, A large Cannabis plant with the words legalize It written under it, It got into the Irish Times with a row of elderly bathers sitting under it.

We need someone with a sense of humour like Bankski or his Russian counterpart.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2093843/Codename-Bankski-The-Russian-Banksy-brings-guerilla-art-Moscow.html

jameverywhere

I'm definitely too much of an anarchist to disapprove of graffiti. I don't make it myself, but I like to take pictures of it. I think it says a lot about the spirit of a city.

There are more important things to worry about, imho.

dmcronin

I did see an artwork in Cork city, the gist of which was 'F**k The Guards'

I didn't think it was possible to mis-spell the 'F' word, 'the' and 'Guards' but he did.

foggy_lad

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

We need someone with a sense of humour like Bankski or his Russian counterpart.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2093843/Codename-Bankski-The-Russian-Banksy-brings-guerilla-art-Moscow.html

We need citizens of the state to have some pride in their village/town/city and stand up to those who are lawless and who are constantly in the courts for vandalism, violence, drugs and public order offences. These people have no respect for the country they live in so should not benefit from the society which they are constantly damaging with their vandalism.