Continual signal problems with rain

podgeandrodge

My father in law has SKY plus for the last year and the dish points towards a large tree (which can't be cut down) - reception is fine until the rain comes - signal test shows less than 50% quality (and the signal line jitters a lot up and down) and the picture comes in and out.

Sky have sent someone out a couple of times to realign the dish but the problem keeps coming back.

Yesterday I hooked up an old Sky (non plus) box to see would it be less sensitive to a low signal and (while it only got a few channels due to the card not being paired to it) the picture did not break up. I rang Sky who told me that ordinary digiboxes didn't need as strong a signal as Sky plus boxes...

Any advice re the setup - would a larger dish help or would doing this mean Sky would no longer have to support it? I swapped the lnb inputs on the sky plus box but it didn't improve anything. Or is this a no hope situation because of the tree...

Picture attached just in case someone can tell me that the elevation of the dish looks off or anything!

Dungarvan is the area by the way if you happen to live nearby hehe

Apogee

It sounds more like poor alignment. The viewing angle of the dish is much higher than you might think, so the tree would need to be quite close/tall to have any influence.

podgeandrodge

Hi Apogee. Unfortunately the tree is huge - and much higher than the roof so the dish is probably getting caught by it. That's why I was wondering whether a bigger dish would get that "little bit extra" signal to get it over the 50% mark. Of course I'm assuming that whoever Sky sent out knew how to align the dish properly..:rolleyes:

Thanks.

Apogee

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Hi Apogee. Unfortunately the tree is huge - and much higher than the roof so the dish is probably getting caught by it. That's why I was wondering whether a bigger dish would get that "little bit extra" signal to get it over the 50% mark. Of course I'm assuming that whoever Sky sent out knew how to align the dish properly..:rolleyes:

The chances are if the tree was obstructing the line of sight, you'd have no signal at all. If the tree was partially obstructing the LOS, then installing a bigger dish is only going to delay the inevitable.

From the pic, I think I can see coax cable thrown across the tiles? If so, then it doesn't say much for the standard of the initial installation.

St Senan

The bracket on that install looks to be bolted directly to the chimney and OMG the tube is upside down very much a Sly standard install. what i would suggest is a chimney bracket and lashing kit similar to the one in the picture with the Aerial on it but with a more heavier gauge pole say 1 and 3/4 inch diameter then the dish could be mounteted a bit higher. You might be able to use the original chimney bracket but the pole looks thin It would be a job Defiantly for an independant installer

podgeandrodge

Yes, the cables are coming from the LNB across the roof, down the front wall and into the wall at the front. Installed by people SKY sent out.


More pics showing the tree! and the cabling.

Thanks for your comments. Would I have any luck ringing SKy and saying the installation was sub standard?
In relation to independent installers I would have to persuade my father in law as he is elderly and won't understand why he should have to go with someone else to fix it - any recommended installers near Dungarvan?

Apogee

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Would I have any luck ringing SKy and saying the installation was sub standard?

You could threaten to cancel your subscription if they don't rectify it.

Mossy Monk

podgeandrodge wrote: »

That tree wont be a problem

Kashkai

Tree surgeon to lop the top off the tree?

Or how about positioning the dish elsewhere, i.e. bottom of the back garden where it might see round the tree?

Moving the dish up the pole, even a larger stronger pole, is going to cause problems in high winds and could place a lot of stress on the chimney.

podgeandrodge

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Tree surgeon to lop the top off the tree?

Or how about positioning the dish elsewhere, i.e. bottom of the back garden where it might see round the tree?

Moving the dish up the pole, even a larger stronger pole, is going to cause problems in high winds and could place a lot of stress on the chimney.

Hi, unfortunately back garden faces into other bloody trees just as high! though now that you mention it, it could be worth a try with a spare dish and receiver just to be sure.

Mossy, I know the tree doesn't look that big in the picture from that viewpoint. But it's quite big. I'd love to be able to discount the tree altogether given that in good weather the signal is fine (though I never checked the signal level on the box in good weather). It sounds like one of those "wet leaves on the tree" problems.

snaps

can you see the sun at around 11 am? Is it behind the tree?

podgeandrodge

snaps wrote: »

can you see the sun at around 11 am? Is it behind the tree?

snaps, I'll check at 11am tomorrow morning!!

Apogee

Checking the sun at 11am won't tell you much, as the elevation of the sun is over double that of the satellite at this time of the year. Plus, you'll be observing the sun from the ground rather than from directly behind the dish.

If you want to confirm if the tree could be obstructing the LOS - which I doubt from that picture - take another picture which is taken at right angles to the dish feedarm which takes in the tree as well. Then print it out, and using a protractor, draw a line at an angle of 21 degrees from the dish.

podgeandrodge

Do you mean take a picture with tree on the left and dish on the right? And when you say 21 degrees from the dish what part of the dish? Sorry, bit thick on these things!

I took this earlier by the way - it shows that the tree isin't as small as the other picture suggested - if you were sitting behind the dish this tree would be immediately in front of it.

JHMEG

From Dungarvan the satellite is at about 27 degrees up from horizontal.

Using a protractor draw a line at 27 degrees on a sheet of paper, get up as close to the dish as possible and using the piece of paper with a level (eg spirit) look up and see do you clear the top of the tree.

I would add that pic breaking up in rain is probably the dish slightly out of alignment, or slightly skewed (ie twisted)

Mossy Monk

If the problem only happens when it rains then I seriously doubt the tree is at fault.

denis1501

I agree with Mossy, I don't think that tree is the problem at all.
Which channels start to break up first in the rain??

Zeppi

it is not the tree, the dish is not aligned properly. I had that problem myself.

Zeppi

St Senan

Guys the tube of the wall mount is upside down the dish is up as high as it can go on the tube which is not very solid. If the problem only occurs in the rain it's not the trees OP you should at least get an opinon from an independant installer as he would carry the necessary brackets and poles to rectify this dish.

podgeandrodge

Thank you all for your helpful replies. I am going to get independent installers out. (though I presume it was independents that SKY originally got out) - I am getting a local tv shop (IRWINS) who do installations - at least they will want to keep their local reputation. The SKY+ box is getting nothing now and just freezing - hopefully the installers will know whether it is the dish or the box.

For info - I rang Sky:

me: "blah blah no signal"
Sky: "this is due to your location. My neighbour gets a better signal because she is on the top of my apartment block which is nearer the source"
me: "i thought the satellite was 22500 miles up in the sky and all you needed was a clear line of sight?"
SKY: "no sir, that's not the way it works"
me: "well i have friends in dungarvan and their signal is fine"
SKY: " how far away are they?"
me: "about a mile"
SKY: "well there you have it - there is obviously a better signal a mile away"

Found it hard to remain calm at this point and ended the conversation!

Do you guys know if getting a bigger dish would compensate even a little bit if the issue is with the tree? And if the dish should not be mounted directly on the chimney what do you mount the dish onto? Thanks.

St Senan

If the install was booked through sky directly then sky use subcontractors not independants to do thier installs.
the dish should be only mounted to the chimney using a lashing kit and cradle as i mentioned in an earlier post. Would your neighbours consider cutting or topping that tree.

podgeandrodge

unfortunately its not the neighbours, the council say they want it preserved. You still reckon it could be part of the problem?
Am I right in saying that the cradle is better because it goes around the chimney rather than digging into it and possibly falling back slowly from the chimney?

BTW the TV shop I was in yesterday, (where I am going to get the installers) mentioned replacing the dish (standard sky) with a 80cm solid dish. Do you think this is a waste of time and I should get them to concentrate on just bracketing the dish thats already there properly?

Thanks.

mikehn

If problem occurs only during rain a plastic bottle cut to fit around the LNB may be your answer.
My cousin has a couple of dishes on his wall alligned to various european sats and experienced sparklies and break up during heavy rain.
He was advised to cut those 2ltr bottles that you would get vegetable oil in and tape onto the LNB arm so that the remaining part of the bottle extends out over the top of the LNB. It sorted his problem.
TBH the quality of the install looks untidy, its important that the coax plug to the LNB is properly taped to prevent water ingress, I have seen a lot of instances where this is skimped.
With potential interference from a tree you are living on borrowed time as when it grows its going to kill your signal, unlike analogue a digital signal has to be more or less spot on or you get nothing.
Can you not stick a pole out in the garden or on the back wall, height is not an issue with SKY as the Sat is very low on the horizon.

podgeandrodge

Yep, I'll get installers to look at other location options.

BTW, the cable says "75ohm W102"- is this proper cable for satellite? I can't see anything like RG6 or CAT5 etc...

podgeandrodge

Installer came out - did signal test with gadget on the sky box and agreed crap signal.
He reckons the tree is the problem and that without rain its just getting enough signal to work and the rain tips it over.

He didn't see anything wrong with the dish being bracketed directly to chimney and said he would only use lashing for an aerial. I'm a bit disappointed at this as I've since read, after what Scaller said, that lashing is the correct way to go with chimneys.

He is coming back tomorrow to do a signal test up on the roof.
I asked him would a 60cm dish on a pole help and he said "maybe"...

Will just have to wait and see what he comes up with.

Irish Bazza

This can be frustrating. Try a 80cm solid dish, with a strong mount and good gain LNB and go for CAT 5 (it does make a difference). It may do the trick.

Keep us all updated.

podgeandrodge

Installer came out last week, I haven't been there since but I understand he put up a pole mount (after I suggested this to him following Scallers advice) so the dish is a foot or 2 higher than it was and there is room for moving further up if necessary.

All problems solved (for now!). (Though I am looking forward to doing a signal check on the Sky box when I get down to Dungarvan again to see how much of a signal difference it shows).

I am assuming that an extra couple of feet for the dish equates to more than a couple of feet of the tree angle wise!

Still don't know if "75ohm W102" is CAT5 or just some average cable..

Thanks again for all help in resolving this.

podgeandrodge

Doh! Picture gone again. And the dish is on a pole. It must be the damn tree :mad:

Am going to Dungarvan again on Thursday evening and will call out installer again - should I ask him to put a new dish and LNB in?

Ta.

podgeandrodge

Hi
A year later down in Dungarvan and signal problem reoccuring - after getting an independent installer to put a pole up on chimney - occasionally the signal comes back for a few minutes and goes again - any further ideas welcome but I suspect the tree is the only possible issue at this stage - see pics below.

Thanks for any advice (or any satellite people in dungarvan who can confirm this for me for once and for all!)


Last year's picture of installation before pole erected:


This year with pole erected but problem back:

snaps

well if it is a yearly ocurrance it sounds and looks like a leafy problem. Ive a mate who has the same problems with 1 west, ok when no leaves on the trees but as soon as April-october comes he has patchy reception.

Apogee

podgeandrodge

Apogee wrote: »

thing is they are huge trees - even if I could hire a chainsaw there would be big risk in the tree falling into neighbouring houses. Will try the local council again.

Rippy

The dish needs to be moved further back from the tree. How far to the gable end from the chimney? It will need to mounting on t& k brackets and a pole attached to the gable.

podgeandrodge

Rippy wrote: »

The dish needs to be moved further back from the tree. How far to the gable end from the chimney? It will need to mounting on t& k brackets and a pole attached to the gable.

That hadn't occured to me - or to the satellite installer that was out - I'd say it's at least 20 feet back from the chimney - you think it would be an option?

Would I be wasting my time trying to organise a bigger dish...

kbell

It's the tree, simple as.
Tree cut back or as rippy said, t &k bracket on gable, but from the photos posted i don't think it would work due to height and the fullness of trees.

Rippy

If it's still caught at the gable , 10ft scaffold pole on the t&ks would be the next option. I may be I'm Dungarvan in the next couple of weeks on a commercial job, if so I'll take a look.

podgeandrodge

that sure would be appreciated if you happen to be in dungarvan rippy. A decent opinion would be great. In the meantime I will try and put pressure on the council to cut it down!

(pm me if you think you will be out dungarvan way and thanks again)

givecredit

Looking at your photos, would it be an idea to install dish to back wall of your house. The large tree seems to be centred to frontside of house. You seem to have clear sight at back of house.
Attaching dish to gable may work now, but the problem is the tree is growing every year. So your problem will return in a few years.

Barack Obama

Search on eBay for inline amplifier - very cheap device that solves a lot of signal quality problems.

St Senan

Barack Obama wrote: »

Search on eBay for inline amplifier - very cheap device that solves a lot of signal quality problems.

A inline amplifer won't solve this problem. The tree is blocking the dishes line of sight to the Satellite. As other posters have suggested the only way to solve this problem is to either cut down the tree or relocate the dish somewhere else.

podgeandrodge

view from back of house - does seem more promising as the big tree is barely visible on the left...the trees you can see are only half the height of the one causing the problem at the front.

St Senan

This is what you need done https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/59999/85554.JPG but in your case maybe mounted further back.

Barack Obama

scaller wrote: »

A inline amplifer won't solve this problem. The tree is blocking the dishes line of sight to the Satellite. As other posters have suggested the only way to solve this problem is to either cut down the tree or relocate the dish somewhere else.

Fair enough, but the op said that he had 'signal problems with rain' not constant problems.

podgeandrodge

Problem solved Got an installer out again - (scaller thanks but he said the back was still going to hit the trees). He found a spot back further on the front of the house (not far from the gable end Rippy so you were correct in advising to bring it back from the chimney) and got a good signal.

Signal quality at about 75% on sky box. If the trees grow a lot to the left there is potential for future problems but I'd say that is a long way away.

Thank you all for your help and advice.










edit :

Barack Obama wrote: »

How is the tree the cause if the symptom is 'signal problems with rain'. Surely if it was a constant problem then yes the tree would be the culprit?

That was what I thought the main problem was a year ago when the thread began - at that point the tree was probably just about ok but rain and wind threw the signal out.

St Senan

Barack Obama wrote: »

Fair enough, but the op said that he had 'signal problems with rain' not constant problems.

Even if the problem was with rain an inline amplifer still won't fix it. If the problem was with rain then the dish is not correctly lined up or the face of the dish is rusty and water is staying on the flakey paint . A in line amp like this http://www.tvtrade.ie/amplifiers-and-diplexers/line-amplifiers.html would be used if the dish was mounted a long distance from the receiver.

givecredit

You may have another problem now! Did you get Planning Permission before you installed the satellite dish on the front of your house?

St Senan

givecredit wrote: »

You may have another problem now! Did you get Planning Permission before you installed the satellite dish on the front of your house?

That's what i was just thinking.

Barack Obama

Camouflage your dish by painting this on it

podgeandrodge

givecredit wrote: »

You may have another problem now! Did you get Planning Permission before you installed the satellite dish on the front of your house?

hmmm good point. I'll cover it with some greenery

If the council cut down the trees we can get it back up on the chimney.

Macy0161

I was under the impression the planning permission "issues" related to new builds? Mines on the shed at the back of the house anyway...